Interesting highlights - Dewoitine 510 monoplane fighter at 2:27, and at 1.06 Farman F222 and F221 4-engine bombers - both of which carried more bombs than a B17G, though at a more sedate pace.
All saw service during WWII.
French Air Force 1936
Interesting highlights - Dewoitine 510 monoplane fighter at 2:27, and at 1.06 Farman F222 and F221 4-engine bombers - both of which carried more bombs than a B17G, though at a more sedate pace.
All saw service during WWII.
Very interesting footage Zoe.
Certainly aircraft which I had never seen in actual flight before.
I bet the spectators found that air Armada very impressive. It is a pity that the events three years later proved otherwise.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Interesting thanks Zoe
Hi Zoe hope you are well. Was very interested in this footage as for some reason IMHO people tend to overlook many of these aircraft types. Especially the 1/72 construction kit manufacturers who seem to think French WW2 aviation consisted of Dewoitine D.520s / Moraine-Saulnier MS.406s and the occasional Bloch 52!
for posting
Thanks Zoe, you always turn up some great stuff!
I love the French bombers of the era - sheds with wings, and nary a concession to the laws of aerodynamics....
This makes me realize that I had very little idea that formation flying was a thing that long ago. I've only ever seen the Blue Angels do it with jets!
Great find Zoe!
Some rare birds in that one.
Originally Posted by Dom S
I love the French bombers of the era - sheds with wings, and nary a concession to the laws of aerodynamics....
HBM make some of them. The Farman 222.2 in particular is moderately challenging to construct - as are all resin models with struts. The NC 223, a more streamlined versions of the 222, really requires an expert.
The NC 223:
The Farman 222.2 has some large struts, but they're easy to get at.
BONUS - RAF at Hendon in 1937.
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/r-...play-at-hendon
Many of the maneuvers the Blue Angels do are over 75 years old.
Highlights: Guest appearance by Farman Shorthorn, Caudron G.3, Sopwith Triplane, and Spitfire I prototype.
For WWII games I stick firmly to 1/600 - suits my megalomania better. Fortunately the nice man at Tumbling Dice does the Farman 222, as well as the Amiot 143 and Bloch 200, so such beauties are well represented....
I only regret that I can't rep you twice Zoe. Thanks for expanding my world a little bit more, as I've come to expect from you.
Tumbling Dice - I remember visiting them at Hammerhead 2015. A very nice chap was running a game based on the Ploesti bombing raids using 1/600 scaleFor WWII games I stick firmly to 1/600 - suits my megalomania better. Fortunately the nice man at Tumbling Dice does the Farman 222, as well as the Amiot 143 and Bloch 200, so such beauties are well represented....and in the process of giving this game a go I had my photo taken. This now appears as an official Hammerhead 2015 photo and shows me wearing my trademark blue shorts / black cap.
I did buy a 1/600 scale Boeing B-52D from TD which is now on display with my 1/144 scale WW2 bombers upstairs in the attic
Thanks Zoe, loved this one. Pity there's no sound.
Sound you want? From the 1937 show?
*SIGH*
Okay. Your wish is my command.
Thank you for both those videos, Zoe. They are very interesting.
There is on this newsreel of the 1934 display. As well as a Draken being brought down in flames.
http://www.britishpathe.com/video/ro...-force-pageant
Thanks Zoe; I wasn't having a go at you but just naturally thought that, as a 'Preview', it was still awaiting editing and the addition of a commentary. I therefore presume that the later clip is the finished article.
Love the bit about the Pirates! Salute: Rebel
Good stuff, Zoe! thanks.
Here, in Central Europe, we discuss often BoB, but Battle of France is not as interesting topic as other war years. Personaly, I understand much from book Letter to a Hostage (with text "War pilot"). I really recommend it to all interested members.
For some reasons the Battle of France is very interesting to me.
1) For the first time Luftwaffe faced an air force equipped with planes of comparable level.
2) Polish pilots could fly much more modern fighters than those used in September 1939 and gain more experience (for BoB ahead).
3) Some air fights there were really unique as far as plane types are concerned: Fairey Battles light bombers in action, Moranes 406, Caudron Cyclones (exclusively "Polish" plane), Bloches, Potezes against Luftwaffe - what a variety of possible scenarios.
I found and bought a brilliant second hand old book at Doncaster this year about air battles over France 1940: in the reading queue
I have no info about Czech pilots fighting in France those days, but if they were there (I am pretty sure they were), it could build up a greater interest for all of us here and result in some reenactment scenarios at Prague
"We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."
Here's a bit of googling for you, Andrzej; nothing much, but a start:I have no info about Czech pilots fighting in France those days, but if they were there (I am pretty sure they were), it could build up a greater interest for all of us here and result in some reenactment scenarios at Prague
http://www.historynet.com/world-war-...sek-perina.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Franti%C5%A1ek
https://books.google.com/books?id=B8...france&f=false
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
Oh Karl, always on duty, always ready to give a helping hand.
Thanks.
I could not resist from firing a rep salvo, but it was not possible this time, you know why
"We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."
Once again, Zoe, a particularly spectacular find! As others have said, it's what we've come to expect from you...
Never do you disappoint!
All the best,
Matt
Karl pointed Josef František, I am sure you know him very well (did someone said "303"?). Wikipedia says that Czech pilots were 12 % of jolts above France, so not a small number. France was an intermezzo between Polish campaign and BoB, so it is interesting scenario and combination of French Dewoitines and British Hurricanes is good for it.For some reasons the Battle of France is very interesting to me.
1) For the first time Luftwaffe faced an air force equipped with planes of comparable level.
2) Polish pilots could fly much more modern fighters than those used in September 1939 and gain more experience (for BoB ahead).
3) Some air fights there were really unique as far as plane types are concerned: Fairey Battles light bombers in action, Moranes 406, Caudron Cyclones (exclusively "Polish" plane), Bloches, Potezes against Luftwaffe - what a variety of possible scenarios.
I found and bought a brilliant second hand old book at Doncaster this year about air battles over France 1940: in the reading queue
I have no info about Czech pilots fighting in France those days, but if they were there (I am pretty sure they were), it could build up a greater interest for all of us here and result in some reenactment scenarios at Prague
In 2014 there was a Brittle of France mission on Prague Con (AAR from testing session). The result of Con was a draw, if I remember well (I am not sure who joined us, I remember only Thomas), you probably play some WGF mission during this block.
Karl, thank you for your education activities. You are convinces me often about your historical outlook
So the French saw more of their aircraft in airshows than during the Battle of France
The root causes of France's lackluster performance in 1940 are many; for the airforce, there was the recent dislocation of aircraft production and development, and the relative lack of funding, with the army give the highest priority. During the war, there seemed to be a difficulty with getting new planes (and squadrons) to the front, with lots of first line fighters and bombers languishing in depots and factory fields. Then there was a drive (while the campaign was still undecided) to evacuate numbers of squadrons to North Africa "in case of defeat". Not the best way to fight for the homelandSo the French saw more of their aircraft in airshows than during the Battle of France
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
Never mind the generally-FUBAR nature of the French gov't at the time. I have toyed with an alt where some of the smarter elements realize France-proper is screwed, and arrange to decamp to "France-outre-Mer" (the African colonies) until such time as they can reclaim the homeland (and in so doing, make sure everyone realizes "not all Frenchmen are Cheese-Eating Surrender Monkeys").The root causes of France's lackluster performance in 1940 are many; for the airforce, there was the recent dislocation of aircraft production and development, and the relative lack of funding, with the army give the highest priority. During the war, there seemed to be a difficulty with getting new planes (and squadrons) to the front, with lots of first line fighters and bombers languishing in depots and factory fields. Then there was a drive (while the campaign was still undecided) to evacuate numbers of squadrons to North Africa "in case of defeat". Not the best way to fight for the homeland
Karl
Actually, that sounds a lot like what was tried. Just not well.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
The problem was: In reality, no formal plan was in place -- the colonials were allowed to go their own way (which led to the clusterfrag with the French fleet at Mers-el-Kébir). My idea was for a more-formal, and better-organized, withdrawal; a mass movement (at night) of gov't gold and other resources to Toulon, for subsequent loading onto the ships; then the fleet leaving for Points South And West (Africa, and the Caribbean); troops who aren't evacuated on the ships crossing into Switzerland (as evaders, which means legally they are free to leave whenever) or Portugal via Spain (a not-as-good option considering Franco's sympathies), and thence to hook up with the gov't in "France-outre-Mer". The AF would be pretty-much Screwed; but they'd be able to pick up the American orders, and use them as intended.
I'm not sure that's a viable Alt-history scenario; sounds a lot like the US government planning to evacuate to Porto Rico and Cuba in case of an invasion from Canada
It's very hard to imagine a first rate power planning to be so overrun. And the 1940 campaign was a great shock, even to the Germans.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
not to mention the huge investment of the maginoit line boondoggle.The root causes of France's lackluster performance in 1940 are many; for the airforce, there was the recent dislocation of aircraft production and development, and the relative lack of funding, with the army give the highest priority. During the war, there seemed to be a difficulty with getting new planes (and squadrons) to the front, with lots of first line fighters and bombers languishing in depots and factory fields. Then there was a drive (while the campaign was still undecided) to evacuate numbers of squadrons to North Africa "in case of defeat". Not the best way to fight for the homeland
Karl
There are many myths about the Maginoit line. From my research it was supposed to hold back the Germans in time for the French Army to mobalise which it did.
Also to ensure that when they did attack, they went through Belgium, which again they did. That way, the fighting takes place somewhere besides France
In many ways, the war plans France had were reactions to what happened the last time, and refinements of the winning tactics from 1918. As such, they were not badly prepared for a war they didn't want to fight.
The biggest failures were at the top, with command control and logistics very lacking.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
well its ultimate purpose was to prevent french defeat. in this it failed miserably by diverting much needed resources and manpower that couldve been utilized better elsewhere.
Maybe so, but since the French Command failed to properly use the tools they had, I'm not sure more tools would have made much difference.
Of course not having the Maginoit Line might have forced a change in attitude, or been a symptom of a change.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
Not quite -- for one, the US is much bigger than Europe (the ACW front-line trace was 50% longer than the Eastern Front at its longest), so leaving DC, one might head for, say, Houston.I'm not sure that's a viable Alt-history scenario; sounds a lot like the US government planning to evacuate to Porto Rico and Cuba in case of an invasion from Canada
The Maginot Line: Someone sits down, does the math -- and realizes it don't add up. (The Line was just another indicator of how badly screwed-up the French gov't was -- even they didn't know what it was actually supposed to do.)
The real problem, as noted, was in the levels of the military where the leadership is more Politician than Soldier -- what I'm proposing is some of the younger officers foreseeing "these old bastards are going to lose the country as well as the war", and then "endrunning" their own command to arrange a fallback position which the "Landser" Germans won't easily be able to take.
OK, that makes it clearer. A couple of hurdles would be getting the colonial governments in-line so it would be a unified...well mess under a government in exile, and finding enough resources to continue the war; manpower mostly, as the USA would (of course) provide the equipment.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
Getting the colonials in line will be a "carrot and stick" matter -- the sudden arrival of the fleet, plus whatever armed forces (or unarmed; see next) the fleet brought with them is the stick, while the conversion of the "overseas empire" to something like what the French currently have (in the areas where one of the currencies is the "CFA franc" or "CFP franc", the locals are effectively independent, but the French have certain operational rights and responsibilities) is the carrot.
As to troop strength: See earlier remarks re Evading via Switzerland and/or Spain-Portugal. "Evading" is the important detail: If one crosses the border with military equipment, one is an "internee", gets put in an internment camp, and cannot leave except by the gov't's say-so; if one crosses *without*, one is an "evadee", can move in the country just like any non-local, and can leave as soon as arrangements can be made (hint, hint, hint)....
The Swiss won't care much, as there's stuff-all the Germans can do to them; Spain is a riskier bet, but since Franco didn't much care for Adolf, I could see French troops in the non-occupied (at the time) region of France crossing the border, then crossing Spain to Portugal, and finally shipping from Portugal to the French African lands.
The real fun part: *NONE* of this can be committed to paper -- it's all having to be done by "sneaker-net" (or whatever the equivalent was at the time).
yeah, if theyd used what they had (like the char 1b) things might have turned out different. had they not had the false sense of security engendered by the maginoit line that they might have reacted more effectively is kind of my whole point.
I have actually visited two of the Maginot Line Forts and they are quite impressive despite the fact that there was no English spoken by the guides. (I must admit it was a few years ago now and my French was a lot better then). One can quite clearly see how they could engender that false sense of security you mention.
yeah itd been perfect had ww1 been re fought. theyd have been all set. ive got some ww2 pics from a german artilleryman showing some of the damage they did bombarding sections of the maginoit line. mostly just shows chunks blown out of concrete
In one of the Maginot Forts I visited the 6" (?) battery of 4 guns had been breached and the re-stock of ammunition that had just come up in the hoist exploded; because the blast walls between the guns did not go all the way to the ceiling the whole battery was put out of action. So despite all the money spent making them 'indestructible' a simple design fault meant they weren't.
sounds like the "watertight" bulkheads that didnt go all the way up on the titanic. really the whole concept would fall under design flaw but for a fort it was pretty good. like ww2 battleships were top of the line its just that tactics had passed them by.
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