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Thread: Do we need the RAF?

  1. #1

    Default Do we need the RAF?

    With the upcoming cuts in the UK's defence budget and every service screaming blue murder do we really need a third service.

    The Army should operate all the helicopters as they are the one who use them, there should be no need for a second tier of organisation just to lift troop A to point B.

    The Navy could easily take over the fixed wing aircraft as god knows they need some. And maybe if this was the case we could just buy American aircraft fit for purpose instead of wasting millions on having to take a plane where one wing is built in Belgium, another in Portugal with the wheels put together in France, just to placate the idea of a European unity.

    Also we would not have to pay the six figure wages of all the Air Marshals we have, at the last count there were almost as many as we have aircraft, all sitting in 'non jobs.'

    And please, considered replies, not something along the lines of 'they won the Battle of Britain for us'.
    Last edited by Belis4rius; 10-09-2010 at 00:52.

  2. #2

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    Is this not getting a little near politics?
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  3. #3

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    It wasn't meant to be, but if it is I apologise and it can be deleted. I was thinking more along the military viewpoint.

  4. #4

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    Yes we could go down the route of the Army Air Corps and Fleet Air Arm, but you are then just replacing one level of organisation with another. If you feel that three services are too many, why not go the whole hog and reduce it to one. The RN already has ground troops, air assets and naval craft. All three services will have to impliment cuts, and I can think of plenty of areas within all three services, but until you start to look at modernisation over tradition then those with the loudest voices tend to win.
    The army is antiquted and too tied down in tradition (e.g. what use are horses in the modern battlefield?) and is the force that needs the most streamling - forget the regiments and have one single force, the navy already do... mind you if the land forces drop below 100,000 they no longer get to call themselves "Army", and that has always been the reason for the Brass to push for absorbtion of the Junior Service.

    Tuppence spent.

  5. #5

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    I suppose the problem is we could all get tribal about our branch or ex-branch of service. I for one was grateful for the operational support received from all branches of the services while on operations, but at heart will always support the protection of the Army in times of cuts because of my background.

    But who knows it may be time to look at how other countries manage their armed forces such as Malta. I know the resources are much smaller in Malta than the UK, but they operate under a one service model.

    My wish is that what ever command and control model is adopted it is based on operational requirements and ensures that the UK has an armed forces capability that is fit for purpose. What ever that purpose is deemed to be by those responsible for UK defence.

    But my WW1 planes are firmly under the control of the RFC and RNAS.

  6. #6

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    .02$ from an American, which isn't work much in the UK...

    I work with a lot of people from all the other US services. And none of them really understands how to use airpower the way the Air Force does. In the short run, eliminating the AF may save money, but any country that did so would lose some basic ability in the employment of airpower.

  7. #7

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    Default

    As a serving member of the RAF I'm a little concerned for the future of my own career, and for the security of the pension I've worked 23 years for. I'm uncomfortable with having the subject discussed in a forum about a game.

    However, in some ways I can agree that the Army and Navy can take on some of the roles of the RAF. The army already operate the attack helicopters so it would make sense if they operated the support helicopters too. After all, why call a cab if you can have your own car?

    Likewise the Navy are taking over operation of the Merlin white elephant.

    There's little justification in the RAF operating helicopters, but who's going to deliver close air support? Who brings in all the troops and supplies? Who operates and maintains the para drop aircraft? Who does the Air Refuelling? Who operates the QRF to monitor intrusions into our airspace? Who flies in the aid and humanitarian relief?

    It's not all about the pointy stuff that turns up at airshows. The RAF are specialists at their job. The army are specialists at theirs, and likewise the Navy. And we're all bloody good at what we do, despite the crappy kit, half-baked contracts and the idiots in charge. Sure, you could make it cheaper and have one outfit, but then you lose that specialisation. Jack of all trades, master of none.

    The quickest way to save money is to lose the wasteful officer system which dates back to Wellington's day. Why does a Warrant officer with 30 years of experience have a 24 year old junior officer as his line manager?

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsmith13 View Post
    ...none of them really understands how to use airpower the way the Air Force does...
    A good point. The phrase, "the jack-of-all-trades is a master of none" springs to mind. The Army needs close-air-support and recon, it's need for (and understanding of) air-superiorty (in regards to its current ops) is not as important as its need for guns on the ground...

    At the end of the day, if you want a decent Service you have to pay for it, start cutting budgets and you have to start cutting corners...

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsmith13 View Post
    I work with a lot of people from all the other US services. And none of them really understands how to use airpower the way the Air Force does.
    Oh -- my -- god, do *NOT* get me started on this.

    On another forum I'm on, I get to see "professional" Army Infantry officers and men talking about "why the Air Force is unnecessary", and "how the Air Force hogs all the procurement money"; the level of Stupid involved sometimes achieves toxic levels. (Hint: Compare the most-advanced rifle ever made, and the least-advanced airplane ever made; which one is harder to operate?)

  10. #10

    Talking

    It wasn't my intention to upset anyone with this post, but obviously I didn't think it through, ex-forces personnel are always going to be loyal to their branch and I should have realised the passions which may be released.

    So please accept my apologies and perhaps the Col. or a moderator can close this thread.

    I myself am ex Royal Navy and have been nothing but embarrassed by their antics since I left, running aground in Oz and being brought home on a barge, crying because the Iranians take your iPod and allowing rag tag pirates to take hostages in front of your eyes!

    However maybe it is no coincidence that the Berlin Wall came down just after I left, job done!

    PS now that I think about it, we were probably the only ship ever to crash into a lamp post!
    Last edited by Belis4rius; 10-10-2010 at 00:15.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belis4rius View Post
    PS now that I think about it, we were probably the only ship ever to crash into a lamp post!
    Britain is turning into a real-life _The Goon Show_ more and more every day.... :)

  12. #12

    Foxley
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    We still need all three services, no matter how we change them there will be a ship, an aeroplane or a gun that needs an expert to operate it.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belis4rius View Post
    PS now that I think about it, we were probably the only ship ever to crash into a lamp post!
    George, I've got to ask what happened? Cheers Aled

  14. #14

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    Hi George. Your remark about the lamppost reminded me of an incident which occurred during WWII. A fighter squadron was based near a bomber squadron and the rivalry got out of hand. One evening after a series of slighting remarks in the pub, against the fighter boys, they decided to retaliate against the bomber boys, and making a furtive sortie onto the bomber base, the fighter boys tied knots in the ends of the Aircraft UCDs (tubing through which the bomber crew urinated whilst in flight). Since the tubes were quite long, the aircraft were in flight when the units started to back up, leaving the aircrew with very soggy trouser fronts for the rest of the flight.
    The bomber crews didn't find this quite as amusing as the fighter pilots did. Fortunately a jeep travelling around the fighters taxi path noticed that the white line, that the fighters followed when moving to take off, had been painted out and a new, gently curving line had been painted in, curving gently off the taxi path, across some grass and running straight up the trunk of a very large tree, not likely to be obvious to a pilot taxing in the dark with only landing lights for illumination . Naturally the COs of each squadron took the view that enough was enough, and put a stop to the shenanigans before someone got killed.
    John

  15. #15

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    I was drafted to my last ship, HMS Sheraton a minehunter, and we had a skipper join us who was a 'character' to say the least. He was not well respected and didn't really make an effort, the poor man was ill suited to command a small ship community.

    Anyway, we had several incidents under his command, we sailed off from Faslane once with the floating jetty still alongside us, then he tried to 'park' us between two ships in Troon and smashed the command post (for the mine warfare officer) on the after deck when it slammed into the bows of the ship tied up aft.

    Soon after we came into Faslane to tie up and we were supposed to slip between two jetties, however, the skipper came in at speed and did not slow down, we all looked at each other on the bridge with increasing concern as the skipper ran from one bridge wing to the other, still no slow down orders. We could see we were pointed at the edge of the jetty and the lads onshore starting to back off from said edge. Too late the skipper called for full astern and we slowly started to move towards the gap, but not quick enough for the lamp post at the very edge as our bows proceeded to push it over to a 60 degree angle!

    PS John Wayne's yacht was a converted British minesweeper of the Ton class, just like Sheraton.

  16. #16

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    I can only imagine it George, but it gave me a blooming good laugh.
    Thanks for the full story.
    John.

  17. #17

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    Thanks George for giving us the full story, bet you were glad to part company with that Captain?

  18. #18

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    A better one concerning Captain Courageous. We met some Dutch sweepers on the way to Newcastle, being the RO I was asked to signal the lead ship with the Aldis lamp, the rear ship kept interfering, I told him to wait until I was finished with the leader. On finishing I turned my attention to the rear ship and got a reply that was an invite to some drinks alongside in Newcastle. I passed this on to the skipper and that was that.

    In Newcastle the skipper got all dressed up and trundled off for drinks to the Dutch who were moored aft of us. Fifteen minutes or so later I got a shout at the top of the hatch, it was the skipper, red faced and fuming, "It was the Dutch RO inviting you for a drink Anderson, not me!"

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belis4rius View Post
    A better one concerning Captain Courageous. We met some Dutch sweepers on the way to Newcastle, being the RO I was asked to signal the lead ship with the Aldis lamp, the rear ship kept interfering, I told him to wait until I was finished with the leader. On finishing I turned my attention to the rear ship and got a reply that was an invite to some drinks alongside in Newcastle. I passed this on to the skipper and that was that.

    In Newcastle the skipper got all dressed up and trundled off for drinks to the Dutch who were moored aft of us. Fifteen minutes or so later I got a shout at the top of the hatch, it was the skipper, red faced and fuming, "It was the Dutch RO inviting you for a drink Anderson, not me!"
    Classic, he must have been a nightmare at the time but at least you can laugh about him now.

    Cheers, Aled

  20. #20

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    Nice one George, I like it.
    john.

  21. #21

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    Great story George. It took me right back to the stories my dad used to tell me about his time in the Fleet Air Arm.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."



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