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Thread: Immelman and full bomb loads

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    Default Immelman and full bomb loads

    In our game last night I found myself telling one of the Stuka pilots that he could not do an immelman if he still had a full bomb load. Am I right or imagining things? I could not find the reference in the fire from the sky rule book.

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    Hi Gary, in real life a Junkers Ju-87 Stuka would be unable to perform an Immelman manoeuver with a full bomb-load attached. The loading on the wings would be too excessive and the aircraft's structure would fail. Also ill-advised being a two seater aircraft-type: More than likely that the Stuka would be able to perform a Chandelle instead which is just as effective in terms of being an about turn manoeuver. Only without the inverted flight component of the Immelman.

    However in Wings of War / Glory terms I have fallen into this trap before: Chandelles are not in the rules and Wings of Glory still gives multi-crew aircraft such as the Bristol Beaufighter an about-turn capability which could only be an Immelman according to the game. I would not be at all surprised if in WW2 / WGS context the same applies to the Junkers Ju-87 Stuka. But yet it would be impossible in real life context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
    In our game last night I found myself telling one of the Stuka pilots that he could not do an immelman if he still had a full bomb load. Am I right or imagining things? I could not find the reference in the fire from the sky rule book.
    Yes I would think it not a smart idea with a full bomb load.
    I presume though that the Stuka's deck does have an Immelman manoeuvre card?
    Guess this is one for a House Rule.

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    I would have thought a Stuka could perform a wingover, though...

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    In Fire From the Sky rulebook, it's written at the end of "How to bomb / Comment bombarder?" (p-17 in VF) that you can't launch bombs after an Immelman or a Split-s but not that you can't do an immelman when loaded. That might be the rule you were thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apii View Post
    In Fire From the Sky rulebook, it's written at the end of "How to bomb / Comment bombarder?" (p-17 in VF) that you can't launch bombs after an Immelman or a Split-s but not that you can't do an immelman when loaded. That might be the rule you were thinking.
    Thank you. I was sure I had read it somewhere, found it on page 18

    FULL LOAD (OPTIONAL RULE)
    A bomber that still has to drop its bombs is considered to be at full load. It cannot do Immelmann/Split-S turns, .......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
    Thank you. I was sure I had read it somewhere, found it on page 18

    FULL LOAD (OPTIONAL RULE)
    A bomber that still has to drop its bombs is considered to be at full load. It cannot do Immelmann/Split-S turns, .......
    Gary, glad that it looks like you have found an answer as to your quandary. Just quickly: Did this arise during the same game you created the That Mighty Biggles thread all about yesterday?

    Looked like great fun if so. I am only just discovering all about Stukas and Vals and other dive bombers playing Wings of Glory / WW2 or WGS. So I am reading all associated threads and postings being very interested at the moment

  8. #8

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    Hi Barnaby,

    Not a quandry, just poor eyesight and memory

    Yes it did come from our Monday night clash. Our Axis team of 2 had one Ju87 each with a covering 109 flying close escort. My Spit got past them and did an Immelmann and the Ju87 and 109 did one too. That is when I said you cannot do one with a full bomb load but could not remember where it said that

    Anyway the result of the shooting at that point was that I copped a long range hit from the Galland 109 in the photo and short range hits from the Stuka that crippled my pilot. In return I hit the Stuka with a short range blast of .303 rounds that killed him! Meanwhile on the other side of the table my offsider Doug was jockeying for a good shot on the other Ju87 and he shot that down within a move or two of my victory. It surprised me how easy they died, their hit points are as 18 but I guess given the random nature of the token draw ...... Neither of them got to release any bombs which was a pity from the game point of view.

    Other rules we had trouble with interpreting were the wounded pilot one and the vertical dive bombing. With the wounded pilot we took it to mean that the wounded pilot plane would select one card in the planning phase as against the others picking two, and he played that card first in the round and immediately selected his next card. At that point the others played their first card and resolved firing. Then the others played their second card and resolved firing and selected their next two cards. At that point the wounded pilot played his next card and it started over again. In effect the wounded pilot played one card against the two of the other planes. Not sure if the others should have selected their two cards after the wounded pilot played his though or before he played his one. To select after the wounded pilot would have given them more of an advantage than just playing two cards for one of mine.

    Pretty sure there is a template in the files that covers dive bombing so I reckon that is covered.

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    Gary, that definitely sounds like a fun game.

    The wounded pilot rules are a pain in the fundament to work out - I'm looking at them now in the WW2 / WGS RAP Edition of the Rulebook. What the rules supposedly emulate are the tendencies of an incapacitated pilot in terms of slower thinking and impaired ability ... What this does in gameplay here against the Wife causes us both to roll our eyes because with two players the rules do not appear to have any effect even if you try and play by them. With more than two players I have witnessed the rules working though so not all is lost. Playing against the Wife we dread the drawing of these wounded pilot chits more than we do explosion chits / BoOm CaRdS!

    Dive bombing is something we have yet to experience in this neck of the woods. My current WW2 / WGS venture is to add the Wings of War dive bomber to my collection as I am currently devoid of them and I have no idea when Ares Games will be releasing the Douglas SBD Dauntless! Am looking forward to when I am able to start playing dive bombers as is the Wife who loves flying Grumman F4F Wildcats: My first three to arrive will all be Aichi D3As. In the meantime I have nothing to practice with as the dive bomb card is unique to this aircraft type as well as the Junkers Ju-87 Stuka and is only supplied with those Miniatures. Never mind - the best things come to those who wait as the saying goes!

  10. #10

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    Well, playing 1 card instead of 2 seemed to work out ok for us for the wounded pilot, but it probably is not the right interpetation of the rule. Vertical dive bombing looks a bit odd because the stuka sits over the target and then does not move for 2 cards? I can see how vulnerable he would be, but a bomb hit is guaranteed. BTW I might be wrong but after reading Peter Smiths book about the skua I think only the Ju87 and the skua would do true vertical stuff, most others did steep dives instead. I am glad I have 6 skuas in my hangar. Must get around to putting decals on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
    Well, playing 1 card instead of 2 seemed to work out ok for us for the wounded pilot, but it probably is not the right interpetation of the rule.

    Peter Smiths book about the skua
    I'm reading the RAP Edition Rulebook again. This important aspect of the game really is badly explained as the Wife and I have a slightly different interpretation under Normal Rules. Under Basic Rules this chit is ignored. However when you think of what the wounded pilot chit represents in terms of handicap this single card idea is an excellent one ... In fact now you come to mention it I think it's us that is barking up the wrong tree not you.

    Wounded pilots must plan and then manoeuver after which they plan their next manoeuver immediately. Whilst able bodied pilots plan two manoeuvers during the planning phase as normal. Wounded pilots also manoeuver first as a Turn begins followed by manoeuver 1 for able bodied pilots / manoeuver 2 for ABPs -> End of Turn. Sounding like wounded pilots do play only one card per Turn.

    Let's see if this thread attracts a second opinion of any kind - would be great if it did.

    Skua: As in the Blackburn Skua? Two seater Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm aircraft. Interesting for me as I am not all that familiar with this aircraft type. Certainly never knew that this aircraft was actually a dive bomber although I have seen a few pictures of Blackburn Skuas operating from / to the WW2 aircraft carrier HMS Ark Royal.

  12. #12

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    I thnk the way it is written is a bit clunky. The normal flow is interrupted because of the wounded pilot planning out of phase. It does give the other pilots an edge as intended but I do it slightly differently. I have the wounded pilot plot an extra card ahead in the normal plotting phase. This keeps the game flowing a bit better.

    After plotting healthy pilots have 2 cards down, wounded pilots 3. The wounded pilot is now one card behind in reaction and that can be quite bad.

    "Wounded pilots must plan and then manoeuver after which they plan their next manoeuver immediately. Whilst able bodied pilots plan two manoeuvers during the planning phase as normal. Wounded pilots also manoeuver first as a Turn begins followed by manoeuver 1 for able bodied pilots / manoeuver 2 for ABPs -> End of Turn. Sounding like wounded pilots do play only one card per Turn."

    I don't see where healthy pilots plan 2 maneuvers other than the first turn when everyone does. After the first plot it is one card at a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baxter View Post
    Well, playing 1 card instead of 2 seemed to work out ok for us for the wounded pilot, but it probably is not the right interpetation of the rule. Vertical dive bombing looks a bit odd because the stuka sits over the target and then does not move for 2 cards? I can see how vulnerable he would be, but a bomb hit is guaranteed. BTW I might be wrong but after reading Peter Smiths book about the skua I think only the Ju87 and the skua would do true vertical stuff, most others did steep dives instead. I am glad I have 6 skuas in my hangar. Must get around to putting decals on them.
    Not if you are using altitude as the Stuka drops vertically for the dive-bombing card played with the special counter on it.
    This feature is unique to the Stuka as the other dive-bombers covered in the game all still move forwards on the Dive-bomb cards (there are two in the deck).
    Last edited by Rabbit 3; 12-02-2018 at 08:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit 3 View Post
    Not if you`r using altitude as the Stuka drops vertically for the dive-bombing card played with the special counter on it.
    This feature is unique to the Stuka as the other dive-bombers covered in the game all still move farwards on the Dive-bomb cards (there are two in the deck).
    Is this something we expect to remain the case once the SBD is released? I wasn't under the impression that the Stuka's angle of dive was all that much steeper than that of the Dauntless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    Is this something we expect to remain the case once the SBD is released? I wasn't under the impression that the Stuka's angle of dive was all that much steeper than that of the Dauntless.
    I certainly think that there is a good case for allowing the SBD to use the Stuka rule but at the moment the Ju87 is the only plane mentioned that can execute vertical dive bombing as well as normal dive bombing.
    Perhaps that might change though whenever we get official mini`s from Ares.

  16. #16

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    The Blackburn Skua was designed as a dive bomber for the Fleet Air Arm. It had a secondary role as a two-seater fighter.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackburn_Skua

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by fast.git View Post
    Is this something we expect to remain the case once the SBD is released? I wasn't under the impression that the Stuka's angle of dive was all that much steeper than that of the Dauntless.
    Did it change, or does the Dauntless move on it's own Dive card? I didnt' open the manuever pack, I just admired the model.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham Resident View Post
    Did it change, or does the Dauntless move on it's own Dive card? I didnt' open the manuever pack, I just admired the model.
    The game does not give the Dauntless the verticle dive like the Stuka. In it's maneuver deck you get two normal dive cards and two steep dive cards (about the length of a stall) and you can play them in succession choosing on which card to drop your bombs as you wish.

  19. #19

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    So the Stuka dives are "stand still cards"? Interesting. If the Dauntless did the same in practice, I'm happy to "house rule" this and just move the length of the arrow when diving. (not put the rear of the base on the arrow as is standard).

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick.G View Post
    Peter has this right. Each turn has a planning phase in which you plan one maneuver.
    Absolutely.

    This is a basic rule which has been misinterpreted by one or two individuals, who then, unfortunately, propagated the error across numerous threads on this Forum, and how-to videos on YouTube.

    The WW2 version of the game has only one card per game turn (except the very first turn of the game) not two.
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