Ares Games
Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: Pondering Dice, decks, and damage

  1. #1

    Default Pondering Dice, decks, and damage

    Although this game and its practitioners pride themselves on forgoing the use of dice, they make for great examples as they are ubiquitous and nearly everyone is familiar with them and their uses in gaming.
    What you may not be aware of is how much difference there is between the typical dice and table methods of assigning damage in other gaming systems and the use of cards in WOG.
    Using a typical six sided die, we have six possible values, each as likely to occur on the first and each subsequent die roll as any other. As the number of times the die is rolled increases, the number of times each value occurs approaches 16.67%, or 1 in 6 – as you would expect.

    When I roll multiple dice, the number of unique values returned changes – still intuitive – for two dice, ranging from 2 to 12; 3 dice, 3 to 18, and so on. But as there are now a number of combinations that can result in a given value, our chance of getting each value between 2 and 12, inclusive, is not the same:

    2 - 2.78%
    3 - 5.56%
    4 - 8.33%
    5 - 11.11%
    6 - 13.89%
    7 - 16.67%
    8 - 13.89%
    9 - 11.11%
    10 - 8.33%
    11 - 5.56%
    12 - 2.78%

    3 dice shifts the distribution even further:

    3 - 0.46
    4 - 1.39
    5 - 2.78
    6 - 4.63
    7 - 6.94
    8 - 9.72
    9 - 11.57
    10 - 12.50
    11 - 12.50
    12 - 11.57
    13 - 9.72
    14 - 6.94
    15 - 4.63
    16 - 2.78
    17 - 1.39
    18 - 0.46

    We now have a very pronounced classic “bell curve” which heavily favors values in the middle.

    Cards used for damage in WOG

    The “A” Damage deck has the following cards and values:
    Pts of damage - # per deck - Probability
    0 - 11 - 31.4%
    1 - 7 - 20.0%
    2 - 6 - 17.1%
    3 - 5 - 14.3%
    4 - 3 - 8.6%
    5 - 2 - 5.7%
    E - 1 - 2.9%

    Unlike dice, however, those probabilities only hold for the first draw, as you remove one or two values from the pool with each use – as if you removed pips from a die and could only use the remaining values.
    With each subsequent draw, the probability of drawing any particular value increases. If you have been drawing well, the chance of drawing an undesirable value increases, and vice versa, approaching a 100% probability as the number of draws increases, until you run out of cards and reset the process.

    If you play with one deck per plane, or per player, then like certain games of chance, the likelihood of drawing a disadvantageous card can be estimated based on the cards already revealed. This then becomes part of the strategy of the game.
    If two players share a deck it reduces the effect of counting cards but does not eliminate it.

    Increasing the number of decks mixed together will reduce the impact of counting cards as the number of cards to keep track of begins to reduce the effectiveness of a counting strategy.

    If what is desired is a truly random chance to obtain a give damage value, only by recording the damage, returning the cards AND reshuffling the deck can you approximate the even distribution of the lowly die roll and remove a card counting strategy from play.

    The choice is yours.......how do you prefer to play?

  2. #2

    Default

    ...If what is desired is a truly random chance to obtain a give damage value, only by recording the damage, returning the cards AND reshuffling the deck can you approximate the even distribution of the lowly die roll and remove a card counting strategy from play.
    The choice is yours.......how do you prefer to play?
    Great work Bob, these kind of stats are always helpful - I have played it exactly this way at club level in the past with 2+ decks and it proved to be pretty deadly as the big cards kept rolling out and dragging us from the sky... brutal, as it should be !
    Haven't ever found card counting an issue as a strategy as, other than certain special damage, the cards are not revealed and upon destruction the cards of the recently departed are shuffled back into the deck.
    Even if not truly random the anticipation of drawing deadly damage as the deck gets lower ramps up more I think than with a humble dice roll - maybe because you have to take the damage card and people are watching you rather than watching dice rolling away from you ? I don't know but for now I'll stick to cards myself (though the thought of WoG specific dice has me thinking...!)

    Sapiens qui vigilat... "He is wise who watches"

  3. #3

    Default

    Hi Bob,

    In SoG, I do precisely what you stated; I have the players record the damage on laminated ship logs, and then return the damage chits to their respective containers. With WoG, the best I have been able to do is to use multiple decks, dampening the effect, for instance of drawing a boom card due to others remaining in the deck, i.e. with the greater number of cards, each non-returned card has less effect on overall probability, and some of the cards, such as boom, still linger, putting fear into the hearts of the pilots. Ideally, I would have laminated plane logs or some of the cockpits Keith produces, returning cards after each round.

    As much as I am in favor of stable probabilities as achieved via dice, players seem to enjoy the drama of the cards and chits.
    “You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato

  4. #4

    Default

    Forgot to comment on card counting. Along with Dave's comment on hidden values, given the mean age of the players I am with, this isn't a problem.
    “You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato

  5. #5

    Default

    Personally I have no bias against the use of cards as stated, after all, that is how it was designed. I just found it interesting to consider its implications and impact on game play. I love the game for the way it is and the stories it writes in our heads for having played it. Of course, I also prefer to win.......!

  6. #6

    LOOP
    Guest


    Default

    There is the specialdamage on the cards and chits. How do you distribute those with dices?

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LOOP View Post
    There is the specialdamage on the cards and chits. How do you distribute those with dices?
    Now you got me thinking....if you wanted a set of tables for regular and special damage, what would that look like. I think my evening has now been spoken for.....

  8. #8

    Default

    All one has to do is to lay out all the cards, treating each distinct card accordingly. One can then compute the probability of drawing a given number, special damage, etc., with or without replacement. I was going to do this in the fall, along with several other Wings and Sails of Glory problems, in my stats class. Unfortunately, the majors that supply the students just went through curriculum changes, and the course will not be offered anymore, that is until the next round of curriculum changes. I figured the students would enjoy such game-related problems. I do.
    “You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato

  9. #9

    Default

    Bob, hopefully, we'll get some games going in Illinois. We go home to Chicago often, and we're currently a little over an hour from you, especially in the absence of State Troopers. We should keep in touch regarding game days.
    “You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato

  10. #10

    Default

    You both raise some interesting points, Bob and Eric. I know of at least one player who has the cards memorized. That is why I use a double deck, and sometimes even take out "boom" cards and the like. It's what I like about WGS versus WGF. You pick a chit, and nobody is the wiser.

    Your idea of a laminated plane log intrigues me, Eric. I do like your ship logs. It had all you needed right in front of me.

  11. #11

    Default

    It's a bit more complicated, but one need not map "number rolled" directly to "damage inflicted". If one knows how frequently a result comes up, one can then match it as closely as possible to a possible result on 2d6 or 3d6.

    For example: Deck D in _WG1_ is: 3x "0"; 1x "3(fire)"; 1x "6(fire)"; 1x 9(fire); 2x "boom". Total number of outcomes is 8; so the chances of each result (in order) are: 3/8; 1/8; 1/8; 1/8; 2/8. For a 2d6 roll, there are 36 possible results (but there's a further complication, of which more later); so we need to enlarge each of those fraction so the denominator is 36, and the numerator larger, but still in proportion -- as it happens, 36 is 4.5 times larger than 8, so both numerators and denominators have to be multiplied by 4.5: 3/8 becomes 13.5/36; 2/8 becomes 9/36; 1/8 becomes 4.5/36. Those ".5"s mean There Will be Rounding.

    However, we have another problem: While there are 36 possible results for 2d6, since the dice are being added, many of those results are "locked together" under sums-- for ex., one can get a "4" by rolling 1 and 3, or 2 and 2; but splitting them up means having multiple possible results for a roll of "4". So we have to look at what results *for sums* are possible -- on 2d6, that's: 2, or 12 = 1/36; 3, or 11 = 2/36; 4, or 10 = 3/36; 5, or 9 = 4/36; 6, or 8 = 5/36; 7 = 6/36.

    Now we can start plugging damage results in. For "boom", at 9/36 (2/8), it's fairly easy -- an adjacent set of a 5/36 and 4/36, and we're there; for this, we'll use results "8" and "9", so those are "crossed off", leaving 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, and 12. That leaves the 13.5/36, and three 4.5/36.

    Those ".5"s need to be dealt with, so two results are "rounded up" to the next whole number. In this case, I'm rounding the "9(fire)" and "6(fire) to 4, and "3(fire)" and "0" to 5 and 14. "0" gets the 6/36, a 5/36, and a 3/36 to add up to 14/36; "3(fire)" gets one 3/36 and one 2/36 each; "9(fire)" gets a 4/36, and "6(fire) gets the remaining 1/36s and 2/36. So the 2d6 "D" table looks like this:

    2, 3, 12: 6(fire); 4, 6, 7: 0; 5: 9(fire); 8, 9: boom; 10, 11: 3(fire).

    Takes a bit to generate, but the proportions are mostly the same. It is possible to do oddball stuff like have a totally different result on doubles, but that's left as an exercise for the reader. :)

  12. #12

    Default

    The dice thing has been done before, at least here: Turning Wings of Glory into a Dice Rolling game.

    You can see the charts (including special damage), along with the response to the attempt.

    I personally don't want any dice in WoG, for any reason. I had more than enough of dice with Wh40k, and other games. Blackronin's Diceless Solo Chart (WGS), or his Solo Maneuver Selection Decks (WGF) made these solo options much more aligned with the spirit of the original design concept for the game(s). IE: no dice.

    PS: And here: Number of cards in a damage deck
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 06-10-2015 at 19:01.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  13. #13

    Smile

    One of the things I really like about WoG is the fact you do NOT need Dice.
    I got sick of rolling handfuls of the damn things during my Warhammer 40K years.

  14. #14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    The dice thing has been done before, at least here: Turning Wings of Glory into a Dice Rolling game.

    You can see the charts (including special damage), along with the response to the attempt.

    I personally don't want any dice in WoG, for any reason. I had more than enough of dice with Wh40k, and other games. Blackronin's Diceless Solo Chart (WGS), or his Solo Maneuver Selection Decks (WGF) made these solo options much more aligned with the spirit of the original design concept for the game(s). IE: no dice.

    PS: And here: Number of cards in a damage deck
    I read the thread you suggested. What I noted was a lot of "No Dice!" sentiment, which I acknowledge and understand. Keep it simple, absolutely. My original post was intended to ask a question, not provide the answer - are we OK at with a system that makes disaster inevitable at some point before we shuffle; and are there any concerns with other players, especially in a competitive situation (which I would probably avoid, as I am into this for the Fun) being able to use the limited pool of cards as an advantage. Sounds like most are absolutely OK with the current state. I toyed with a table based on a simple 2d6 system (KISS) with a draw for special damage using the existing card set. What it made possible was a simple adjustment for the relative position of attacker to target, providing a benefit for above / behind positioning and tailing (rear quadrant) , and a penalty for deflection shooting (side quadrant); all other positions at normal probability. I will refine the model and post to files if anyone has an interest. And for the no dice! members, bon chance!

  15. #15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    Bob, hopefully, we'll get some games going in Illinois. We go home to Chicago often, and we're currently a little over an hour from you, especially in the absence of State Troopers. We should keep in touch regarding game days.
    Works for me. Just provide some advance warning. Weekends book fast in the summer!

  16. #16

    Default

    I think I will try laminated plane logs with friends when playing at our FLGS. It will be interesting to see how people respond. Knowing boom cards, for example, will be reshuffled back into the deck will cause some spine tingling, I believe.
    “You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato

  17. #17

    Banned



    Blog Entries
    42
    Name
    [CLASSIFIED]
    Location
    [CLASSIFIED]
    Sorties Flown
    3,127
    Join Date
    Feb 2015

    Default

    Just out of interest ... What impact would turning Glory into a dice-rolling game have on Solitaire play? The game is that versatile in it's current state that it can be played enjoyably and sustainably without an opponent. Yet other dice-rolling wargames such as Bolt Action and Warhammer 40K barely work or don't appear to work at all should one try and play them solo. Been discussing this recently with a W40K player down at my FLGS so I read this thread with interest and will make sure I follow it.

    Though I am not in the "No Dice!" school of thought I prefer the thought of keeping Glory as we know and enjoy it having also played Bolt Action (which is very dice-dependent) in my time

  18. #18

    Default

    Given the mechanics, I don't think it would change anything other than keeping stable probabilities. However, a player could reshuffle cards after each firing and the do the same.
    “You can discover more about a person in an hour of play than in a year of conversation.” ― Plato

  19. #19

    Default

    I started trying out the solitaire rules about 9 or 10 weeks ago and did not not like rolling dice to see which of the various options were to be selected.
    I much prefer playing with the cards I downloaded about 8 weeks ago.
    I have played about half a dozen games with them and find it much more enjoyable than forever rolling dice and trying to remember what for.

    Back in the '80s I had a solitaire board wargame called "Ambush". It seemed really interesting but I found myself stumped more than a few times by "now what was that roll for again?"
    I stopped playing it and decided to computerize the die rolling bits on my then-new Commodore 64 and found it much more enjoyable.
    Did the same with my home-made Micro Armor rules and it really moved the game along - just key in responses to a few questions and BOOM - a result (including special damage occasionally)

    Long story short - rolling dice umpteen times takes away the enjoyment and looking up results in some kind of table is also not the way I like to spend my game time.
    Last edited by Stumptonian; 06-11-2015 at 16:48.

  20. #20

    Default

    Back in the day my (then) gaming group developed a computer program on an Atari to generate the die rolls required for internal hits on starships in "Star Fleet Battles".

    It made a HUGE difference to the game - far faster and far more enjoyable! One damage generation cycle, compared to (possibly) 70 - or - so rolls of a pair of dice to determine the outcome of one crippling salvo.

    I now try to avoid multiple die-rolls wherever possible.

  21. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gully_raker View Post
    One of the things I really like about WoG is the fact you do NOT need Dice.
    I got sick of rolling handfuls of the damn things during my Warhammer 40K years.
    Which is why I stuck with 2d6 -- if I want to play _Yahtzee_, I know where I can find it.

  22. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 7eat51 View Post
    Given the mechanics, I don't think it would change anything other than keeping stable probabilities. However, a player could reshuffle cards after each firing and the do the same.
    Given the time to reshuffle, if going that route (which I'm thinking about) then converting the WGF damage decks to chits would be a worth while effort.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  23. #23

    Default

    I am quite happy with the game as is.
    Apart from using two sets of cards I do not tamper with the cards at all.
    The build up of suspense as the game develops is all part of the fun to me.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."



Similar Missions

  1. Using Dice for damage
    By drsid in forum WGF: House Rules
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-03-2013, 10:17
  2. Using dice for Damage?
    By Seiseki in forum WGF: House Rules
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 04-23-2013, 14:03
  3. wanted: flight decks/damage decks/plane cards
    By boomerpete53 in forum Sale/Trade/Wanted Classifieds
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 04-12-2013, 15:05
  4. B, C, D damage decks
    By Pakratt in forum WGF: Rules Help
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 12-09-2011, 20:10
  5. USING PERCENTILE DICE IN PLACE OF DAMAGE CARDS
    By Mike George in forum Hobby Room
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 11-03-2010, 16:48

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •