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Thread: WGS Unofficial aircraft list Version 1.0

  1. #1

    Default WGS Unofficial aircraft list Version 1.0

    Here it is, the first unofficial aircraft list of stats.
    There are 3 files: first is an excel file with the stats themselves:
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...o=file&id=2136

    Second is a word file explaining the various notes for the planes, including the modified maneuver decks, and recommended house rules:
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...o=file&id=2137

    Third is a word file with the description of the various non-standard gunnery arcs of the planes:
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...o=file&id=2138

    Due to the great variety of aircraft performances in WW2, a lot of the planes have their maneuver decks modified, and often have other odd rules attached.
    Please read through the notes.

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  2. #2

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    Here are Zoe Brain's slow plane movement system: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...-cards-needed)

    Zoe: can we get a link to the current thoughts on radial engines, lack of armor and self-sealing tanks?
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  3. #3

  4. #4

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    Thank you for producing these files, Karl.

  5. #5

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    NON radial engines - smoke hit does engine hit too (coolant loss)
    From http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...-sealing-tanks

    Target lacks armour:
    Any control hit (rudder jammed) also inflicts a crew hit.

    Target lacks self-sealing tanks:
    Fire goes out after 12 turns not 6.
    Engine hit causes a fire too.

  6. #6

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    Outstanding work people, thanks to all concerned. Sorry I was as much use as a chocolate teapot this time round.
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  7. #7

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    Amazing work.
    My humble thanks to all the committee.

  8. #8

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    Wow, great stuff!
    Lots of reading to do. Can't wait!

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    Very interesting and well put together - many thanks for posting

  10. #10

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    Many and many thanks!

  11. #11

    Thumbs up

    Great work by all involved.

    "Its a fine line indeed between going out in a Blaze of Glory or having Crashed & Burnt!"
    Member Australian Society of WW1 Aero Historians

  12. #12

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    Thanks, everyone. Jager in particular put a lot of work into this one.
    As with the WGF list, it's a work in progress. Feel free to request stats for any aircraft you have that isn't on the list, to propose corrections etc.
    As new aircraft come out, with new manouver decks, some will no doubt change in future. What we have there now is the best we can come up with, given the maneuver decks currently available.

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    Maneuver deck and hits for the Kawanishi H6k4 Mavis please.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  14. #14

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    This is fantastic, everybody!!! What you gave to the community in this is incredible!!!

    Got a question, though ... I couldn't find the B-25 rules in the "firing arcs" document. Did I miss something? (I've been known to overlook the obvious at times, y'know ... ) I'm particularly interested because I've read the B-25 was used as a low-altitude gunship, bristling with weaponry, during some missions in the Pacific theatre near the end of the war, and I'm wondering how the stats might be set with such in mind.

    Thanks!

    -- Eris

  15. #15

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    This is fantastic, everybody!!! What you gave to the community in this is incredible!!!

    Got a question, though ... I couldn't find the B-25 rules in the "firing arcs" document. Did I miss something? (I've been known to overlook the obvious at times, y'know ... ) I'm particularly interested because I've read the B-25 was used as a low-altitude gunship, bristling with weaponry, during some missions in the Pacific theatre near the end of the war, and I'm wondering how the stats might be set with such in mind.

    Thanks!

    -- Eris

  16. #16

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    Has any thought been given to the He 177, FW Ta 152 or the Me210 by any chance? and what is the latest thinking on jets?

    Have you got a stats 'wishlist' somewhere that I have missed?
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eris Lobo View Post
    This is fantastic, everybody!!! What you gave to the community in this is incredible!!!

    Got a question, though ... I couldn't find the B-25 rules in the "firing arcs" document. Did I miss something? (I've been known to overlook the obvious at times, y'know ... ) I'm particularly interested because I've read the B-25 was used as a low-altitude gunship, bristling with weaponry, during some missions in the Pacific theatre near the end of the war, and I'm wondering how the stats might be set with such in mind.

    Thanks!

    -- Eris
    I big reason for the lack of was time, as there were a lot a variants out there, as well as field expedients. Another reason is that a prime source for the firing arcs, the Fighting Wings games, doesn't have the B-25, to my great dismay. Since we had a couple of official B-25s, I thought to get to others later. It is on the list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guntruck View Post
    Has any thought been given to the He 177, FW Ta 152 or the Me210 by any chance? and what is the latest thinking on jets?

    Have you got a stats 'wishlist' somewhere that I have missed?
    Sorry about the He.177; it was on the list (got there back when Clipper started making them), but slipped off. Elfshot as it were.
    For wishlists, here will do for now, though I can't promise anything on timeliness.

    Ta.152 and jets......well I'm planning on doing some thinking about it, but again, time.....
    With the speeds being even faster than the fast fighters, my thought is working on homebrewed cards. I rushed a set for the D0.335 for a game CappyTom ran this year:
    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...t-The-Soldiery
    but I want to do some more thinking with this.
    If I do come up with cards (making them on CorelDraw), I will post for people to try.
    Karl
    Last edited by Jager; 08-16-2015 at 11:01. Reason: sp
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    (Repeated post)

    Maneuver deck and hits for the Kawanishi H6k4 Mavis please.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    With the speeds being even faster than the fast fighters, my thought is working on homebrewed cards. I rushed a set for the D0.335 for a game CappyTom ran this year:
    So presumably you are categorising all flavours of Mosquito as faster than the fast fighters, therefore needing a homebrew set of cards?
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    If I may be so bold as to kick off a wish list, the following are all, or were, commercially available in 1/200 (and sitting in drawers around my house):

    Germany
    Fighters

    Me210
    Ta152

    Bombers
    Heinkel 177
    Dornier 217K

    Seaplanes
    Dornier 22
    Dornier 24
    Blohm & Voss BV222

    Jets/rockets
    Me262
    Arado 234
    Me163
    Bacham Natter!!

    Great Britain
    Fighters

    Typhoon
    Tempest
    Spitfire XIV
    Spitfire XVI
    Spitfire 22 (OK that's pushing it)
    Lockheed P38 without supercharger (RAF)
    Mosquitos

    Seaplanes
    Westland Walrus
    Saro London
    Short Sunderland
    Supermarine Singapore

    Other
    Avro Anson
    Westland Lysander

    USSR
    Light Bomber

    Yak 4

    Seaplanes
    Beriev MBR2
    Chetverikov ARK-3

    And of course, a Mavis for Neil.

    No rush for these chaps, end of next week will do
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  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guntruck View Post
    So presumably you are categorising all flavours of Mosquito as faster than the fast fighters, therefore needing a homebrew set of cards?
    I'm not sure, Steve. This was another that slipped through the cracks, as it wasn't on either of Zoe's lists, though Clipper did pour a few
    As for speed, unless you look at the late PR model (which still can slip in at 425MPH), the fastest fighter or bomber versions is the B.Mk.XVI at 415MPH, which is within the range of the P or R decks.
    The problem might be how maneuverable it is. Plus the various Mks adds up the time
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guntruck View Post
    Has any thought been given to the He 177, FW Ta 152 or the Me210 by any chance? and what is the latest thinking on jets?
    Here is the latest thinking on jets Steve ... Inspired by a certain lack of new releases for WGS saga that is in our midst at the moment. So I decided to stop complaining and start thinking - and it has unleashed this!

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	38. Avro Vulcan B Mk 2 XH560 Port side August 29th 2015.jpg 
Views:	448 
Size:	166.8 KB 
ID:	174369
    Trophy Aircraft compatible with WGS!

    The full story is available under WW2 / Missions in Circuits and Bumps

  23. #23

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    OK, I might be having a senior moment, but the notes refer to house rule no 3 regarding radial engines. Where would I find this rule?
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  24. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guntruck View Post
    OK, I might be having a senior moment, but the notes refer to house rule no 3 regarding radial engines. Where would I find this rule?
    It's more of what doesn't happen to radials:
    from Zoe Brain (post #5)
    NON radial engines - smoke hit does engine hit too (coolant loss)
    From http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...-sealing-tanks

    Target lacks armour:
    Any control hit (rudder jammed) also inflicts a crew hit.

    Target lacks self-sealing tanks:
    Fire goes out after 12 turns not 6.
    Engine hit causes a fire too.
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  25. #25

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    Jets could take a hint from Star Wars. A game I do not play I hasten to add. Guns handled as normal within arcs. Movement accomplished by different length movement rulers. Missiles and ECCM handled with targeting chit and chaff defence chit to lessen hit %. Something like that anyways.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Jets could take a hint from Star Wars. A game I do not play I hasten to add. Guns handled as normal within arcs. Movement accomplished by different length movement rulers. Missiles and ECCM handled with targeting chit and chaff defence chit to lessen hit %. Something like that anyways.
    Not even going to guided missiles ECM/ECCM etc.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    Not even going to guided missiles ECM/ECCM etc.
    Karl
    I was actually thinking about the first generation jets, 262s etc, although thoughts on using Fritz-X would be useful
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  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guntruck View Post
    I was actually thinking about the first generation jets, 262s etc, although thoughts on using Fritz-X would be useful
    First Gen jets are certainly doable; just how to do them
    And Fritz-X

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Jets could take a hint from Star Wars. A game I do not play I hasten to add. Guns handled as normal within arcs. Movement accomplished by different length movement rulers. Missiles and ECCM handled with targeting chit and chaff defence chit to lessen hit %. Something like that anyways.
    yeah. i agree that the movement style of xwing and staw would better suit high speed jets.

  30. #30

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    I've been digging around for formulas, so I can stat up a few bits myself and work on things, but I can't find anything solid on speed to base arrow length.
    Can anyone point me in the right direction or explain the equation?
    Also how is damage worked out currently?
    I've found Jager's thread on altitudes.

  31. #31

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    Could I put forward the following please:

    KI-32 Mary:

    Speed 261 MPH: I deck roughly same speed as KI-30
    Altitude 29265: 10 higher than the KI-30
    Climb Rate 7.6m/s: 4 slower than the KI-30
    Damage: 18 (less weight/bulk than KI-30)
    Front gun 7.7mm: A/A
    Rear gun 7.7mm: A/A
    Base: Heavy Fighter (Wing: 49' 2.5", length: 38' 2.5")
    See you on the Dark Side......

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Could I put forward the following please:

    KI-32 Mary:

    Speed 261 MPH: I deck roughly same speed as KI-30
    Altitude 29265: 10 higher than the KI-30
    Climb Rate 7.6m/s: 4 slower than the KI-30
    Damage: 18 (less weight/bulk than KI-30)
    Front gun 7.7mm: A/A
    Rear gun 7.7mm: A/A
    Base: Heavy Fighter (Wing: 49' 2.5", length: 38' 2.5")
    Working from the committee notes, gives an initial set of stats at...
    The wingspan comes in at just under the unofficial unofficial step up to heavy fighter, which has sort of settled at 50'
    There maybe wiggle room though.
    I* (deck without steep dive cards) is the closest in speed.
    I work the damage out to be 16 (no armour or self sealing fuel tanks)
    Unless it does tip in to heavy fighter, then it would be 18.
    Ceiling 10
    Climb Rate 6
    Guns are correct.
    Last edited by Foz; 12-01-2015 at 11:43. Reason: Edited armour comments

  33. #33

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    The biggest pain with the I deck is the lack of a 30 degree turn (but it has a 45 degree one )
    While the I deck would probably serve, another option would be the L deck minus the 60 degree turns. I propose this due to the 186mph cruising speed.
    I would use the fighter base.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    The biggest pain with the I deck is the lack of a 30 degree turn (but it has a 45 degree one )
    While the I deck would probably serve, another option would be the L deck minus the 60 degree turns. I propose this due to the 186mph cruising speed.
    I would use the fighter base.
    Karl
    I was thinking of the J deck as a secondary option, but both of those are a smidge too fast.

  35. #35

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    But within tolerances. The RoT is +/- 8-12mph.
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    But within tolerances. The RoT is +/- 8-12mph.
    Karl
    In case, I would probably go for J. I can't see a light bomber doing extreme side slips.

  37. #37

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    Then remove those too and stick with the L?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foz View Post
    In case, I would probably go for J. I can't see a light bomber doing extreme side slips.
    See you on the Dark Side......

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Then remove those too and stick with the L?
    Actually looking at it again, the L deck is closer on the cruise speed. So yes, a L deck with the extreme side slips & 60° turns removed would probably work best.
    I succumb to Karl's superior knowledge.... This time

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foz View Post
    Actually looking at it again, the L deck is closer on the cruise speed. So yes, a L deck with the extreme side slips & 60° turns removed would probably work best.
    I succumb to Karl's superior knowledge.... This time
    Having another dig on info, and the Ki-32 has a wing loading of 104.1 kg/m˛, which is less than a Spitfire. Making this plane theoretically more manoeuvrable. Obviously with less power it can't utilise this as well, but it may call for some of those cards to be re-added.

  40. #40

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    Looking at both decks there seems to be no difference in the length of arrow. The J deck doesn't have the 90 turn (which I take it is the one you want removed not the 60?) it also doesn't have the extreme side slips. So perhaps the J would be better after all?

    Neil
    See you on the Dark Side......

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Looking at both decks there seems to be no difference in the length of arrow. The J deck doesn't have the 90 turn (which I take it is the one you want removed not the 60?) it also doesn't have the extreme side slips. So perhaps the J would be better after all?

    Neil
    I don't have an L deck to hand currently, so I'm working from the Excel sheet with all the info. It has no mention of 90° turns, only 60°.
    As Karl said, the J deck is a bit too fast on the cruise (slow) speed. Otherwise it is just a case of tweaking with turns and slips it has.

  42. #42

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    Ok, having a think on it, my thoughts would be that the Ki-32 doesn't have the power in the engine to hold it over it's reduced stall speed making a high degree turn, so the 60° turns should go.
    Also it's roll rate isn't high enough for the extreme side slips.
    So back to L with those cards removed.
    Hopefully Karl will pitch in later with a for/against insight.

  43. #43

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    So L Deck and remove the following?:

    Cards
    7-8..... 60 right
    9-10... 60 left
    11...... 90 right
    12...... 90 left
    19...... sever side slip right
    20...... sever side slip left
    See you on the Dark Side......

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    So L Deck and remove the following?:

    Cards
    7-8..... 60 right
    9-10... 60 left
    11...... 90 right
    12...... 90 left
    19...... sever side slip right
    20...... sever side slip left
    Yep, like I say, I don't have a L to hand. I also think this excel spreadsheet of the cards needs updating, it doesn't mention 90° turns.
    But then of coarse it's a biplane one, so I should have known that.
    Unless anyone comes up with a better way of doing things, that would be the way I would.

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    ...

    Sorry about the He.177; it was on the list (got there back when Clipper started making them), but slipped off. Elfshot as it were.
    For wishlists, here will do for now, though I can't promise anything on timeliness.

    ...
    Could one of the experts give this attempt at a card a look?

    How to do a Heinkel 177

    Thanks in advance.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    Could one of the experts give this attempt at a card a look?

    How to do a Heinkel 177

    Thanks in advance.
    From an initial dig, I have the speed of the He.177 at 295mph, which the closest deck on speed is K. So I would go with that with the reversal & side slips removed. I'll have a dig on manouverability/wing loading to see about turns.
    Ok, now I have found various articles that put the speed up to 350mph. Cruise speed of 210mph, speed with max load of 270mph. Which makes B or F closest, but with a wing loading of 303.9kg/m˛ I would be tempted to remove all side slips, the reversal and 45° turns.

    Damage Capacity: 37
    Climb Rate: 9
    Ceiling: 11

    Weapons:
    x1 7.92mm nose A/A
    x1 20mm front ventral C/A
    x1/x2 13mm fwd dorsal turret A/A / B/A
    x1 13mm rear dorsal turret A/A
    x1 20mm tail C/A
    x2 7.92mm/x1 13mm rear of gondala A/A
    Last edited by Foz; 12-05-2015 at 08:32. Reason: Revising data.

  47. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foz View Post
    From an initial dig, I have the speed of the He.177 at 295mph, which the closest deck on speed is K. So I would go with that with the reversal & side slips removed. I'll have a dig on manouverability/wing loading to see about turns.
    Ok, now I have found various articles that put the speed up to 350mph. Cruise speed of 210mph, speed with max load of 270mph. Which makes B or F closest, but with a wing loading of 303.9kg/m˛ I would be tempted to remove all side slips, the reversal and 45° turns.

    Damage Capacity: 37
    Climb Rate: 9
    Ceiling: 11

    Weapons:
    x1 7.92mm nose A/A
    x1 20mm front ventral C/A
    x1/x2 13mm fwd dorsal turret A/A / B/A
    x1 13mm rear dorsal turret A/A
    x1 20mm tail C/A
    x2 7.92mm/x1 13mm rear of gondala A/A
    I went by the max speed I found, and that is usually wrong for WGS, as I think it works on the optimal combat speed, not max. So, the maneuver deck I picked was a guess.

    Damage was using the 12 + Empty Total Weight, but I downgraded that from 49 as I didn't see it being as tough as a B-17. But 37? Isn't that a bit low?

    All the A/A positions are pretty solid. However, I just did the Mitsubishi G4M3 Betty. The 20mm Cannons on those arcs I did as C/B. Not the same for this plane? I would think explosive rounds would be as dangerous at long range as they are at short range, if they hit. And two 13mm guns are similar to 2 .50cals, are they not?

    Just asking. I'll make changes, if I can get consensus.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    I went by the max speed I found, and that is usually wrong for WGS, as I think it works on the optimal combat speed, not max. So, the maneuver deck I picked was a guess.

    Damage was using the 12 + Empty Total Weight, but I downgraded that from 49 as I didn't see it being as tough as a B-17. But 37? Isn't that a bit low?

    All the A/A positions are pretty solid. However, I just did the Mitsubishi G4M3 Betty. The 20mm Cannons on those arcs I did as C/B. Not the same for this plane? I would think explosive rounds would be as dangerous at long range as they are at short range, if they hit. And two 13mm guns are similar to 2 .50cals, are they not?

    Just asking. I'll make changes, if I can get consensus.
    No, ask away.
    For the weapons I was working from the equations/rules Zoe gave me for the stats committee.
    A single 20mm cannon should be C/A. I'll have a look at why the Betty is different.
    The damage cap is also worked out from those too. From what I gather, without saying too much I'm not meant to, the weight calc isn't used.
    I gave it the max I could, but now I see the numbers for other heavy bombers, maybe our calculations are out for heavies.
    That I will bring up with the committee. So stick with your number for the moment.

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foz View Post
    A single 20mm cannon should be C/A. I'll have a look at why the Betty is different.
    Ok, reading through the firing arcs document, there are various single 20mm cannons rated at C/B.
    I have brought this up in the committee thread, as it contradicts the way I was told to rate weapons.
    I will come back on this once I have an answer.

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foz View Post
    From an initial dig, I have the speed of the He.177 at 295mph, which the closest deck on speed is K. So I would go with that with the reversal & side slips removed. I'll have a dig on manouverability/wing loading to see about turns.
    Ok, now I have found various articles that put the speed up to 350mph. Cruise speed of 210mph, speed with max load of 270mph. Which makes B or F closest, but with a wing loading of 303.9kg/m˛ I would be tempted to remove all side slips, the reversal and 45° turns.

    Damage Capacity: 37
    Climb Rate: 9
    Ceiling: 11

    Weapons:
    x1 7.92mm nose A/A
    x1 20mm front ventral C/A
    x1/x2 13mm fwd dorsal turret A/A / B/A
    x1 13mm rear dorsal turret A/A
    x1 20mm tail C/A
    x2 7.92mm/x1 13mm rear of gondala A/A
    Bear in mind that the speeds in that file assume a fighter base, except for the XA and XB decks. Since fighter bases are 6.7cm long, and bomber bases are 8cm long, the K deck is actually about 330mph with a bomber.
    The XB is probably closest overall, though a bit slow. The I deck is closest on high speed, but too fast on slow, and doesn't have a 30 degree turn
    I would stick with a XB deck.
    A C damage at short will be a B at long. [correction: a C at short goes to a A at long]
    Also, with all the talk above on the J and L decks, neither deck has a 60 degree turn; only the O deck has that. The J deck has 30 and 45 degree turns, as does the L, which also has a single set of 90 degree turns. The excel file needs to be corrected.
    Karl'
    Last edited by Jager; 12-06-2015 at 00:32. Reason: Correcting stupidity
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

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