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Thread: Need some advice on a possible new business venture...

  1. #1

    Default Need some advice on a possible new business venture...

    Folks, I've been thinking about starting a venture hand-painting Ground Targets for the Aerodrome Community, and I need some advice.

    First, what are the usual preferred scales? I'm thinking WWII should use a smaller scale than WWI, and that we want a smaller scale for ground targets than planes to simulate altitude. David Manley suggested a couple 1/600 lines to look into... considerations here are widespread distribution and regular availability--much as I love Pit-Road 1/700 buildings (their U-boat pen BEGS to go into a Dambuster-type scenario) and planes they're right nasty buggers to lay hands on with any kind of reliability.

    Second, for things like tanks and AFV's... better to base them individually, as sections or complete platoons? My main thinking here is to start by developing a standard catalog that can be knocked out on demand and I can crank out a few dozen at a time to maintain ready stock.

    So let's open up a discussion, that I might distill into a series of polls later. If you're a 3d ground-target user, what would you like to see in a possible Aerodrome Accessories-exclusive line of them?

    For The Record, I don't even know if I have the skill to attempt this, but a big part of my thinking here is to use your input to guide my selection of pre-production samples--and I'm thinking about suggesting some of the samples be raffled off, with a stipulation that the winners write a review of their prizes.
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  2. #2

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    I personally love the 1/700 Pit-road buildings; I've used them for years in 1/700 gaming, and have built up a huge stockpile of them! They don't lend themselves well to WW1 though - the hangars etc are all WW2 onwards, and, as you said, they're becoming hard to find. Having said that, I still occasionally get them cheaply direct from Japan on ebay.

    The Coastal Forces 1/600 metal accessories mix quite well with them - I think Skytrex used to do these, but I couldn't tell you who does them now.

  3. #3

    matt56's Avatar May you forever fly in blue skies.
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    As I'm fairly new to the game, DB, I'm open for almost anything in the way of ground targets. I just ordered some Top Side Minis WWI German and British ships to serve as targets, but they are 2d and I'd eventually like to get some 3d models, but I'm vacillating on scale at this point. I would think the key is to match your targets to the scale of the mat that folks are flying on...the current WoG mats would require rather diminutive targets, whereas a trench mat like Zoe used at CanCon would allow almost plane-scale models as ground targets...

    Keep us posted - I'm excited to see what you come up with!

    All the best,
    Matt

  4. #4

    Guntruck's Avatar Central England Command Squadron Leader & Librarian
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    For WW2 1/200 scale aircraft, I would suggest 1/285 for vehicles, as these are in plentiful supply, both as metal models (GHQ?) or on Shapeways. I would lean toward basing them individually as they are not likely to move far if at all during a game.

    Boats I would go with either 1/600 or 1/1200
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  5. #5

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    I'm with Gunners on this. Although I'm a one to 1200 boat fanatic, for ease of procurement either 1:600 or 1:700 is much easier to source. As for vehicles he is in the ballpark as far as I'm concerned.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    I personally love the 1/700 Pit-road buildings; I've used them for years in 1/700 gaming, and have built up a huge stockpile of them!
    So you'd be interested in _WoG_ WW2 in 1/700? >;)

  7. #7

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    I am with Steve and Rob on the scale issue. Individual 1:285 vehicles are just right for WGS and would fit nicely evdn for WGF IMHO. Ships from A&A War At Sea are about right as well.
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    "We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."

  8. #8

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    Sadly, I'm strictly Turf Side--trying to hand-paint US Measure 31-32-33 dazzle schemes would be the stuff of nightmares for me.
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  9. #9

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    WW1 Aircraft are 1/144 scale
    Ground targets need to be smaller for sure...
    3D WW1 Tanks British & German
    3D WW1 Artillery (Heavy) & AA
    I did see some previously advertised but what scale they were not sure
    all I know is you can't get them for love nor money at the moment...
    unless others know where to source them from?
    3D WW1 Hangers...but based on size of aircraft in the air these would need to be much smaller
    sorry if scale detail is not very helpful,
    but items wish list as above PLEASE....
    Good luck with the venture...
    Regards
    Maverick

  10. #10

    Guntruck's Avatar Central England Command Squadron Leader & Librarian
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    WW1 Aircraft are 1/144 scale
    Ground targets need to be smaller for sure...
    3D WW1 Tanks British & German
    3D WW1 Artillery (Heavy) & AA
    I did see some previously advertised but what scale they were not sure
    all I know is you can't get them for love nor money at the moment...
    unless others know where to source them from?
    3D WW1 Hangers...but based on size of aircraft in the air these would need to be much smaller
    sorry if scale detail is not very helpful,
    but items wish list as above PLEASE....
    Good luck with the venture...
    Regards
    Maverick
    I think it is Pendraken who make smaller scale WW1 tanks and vehicles. They may be 10mm size but I cannot confirm this at the moment as my company web monitor is blocking their site 'cos it's 'gaming'. I have a couple of their A7V tanks.
    Run for your life - there are stupid people everywhere!

  11. #11

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    Here is the Pendraken site.

    http://www.pendraken.co.uk/World-War-I-c17/

    I have used those.
    For photographic purposes I have hangers into which you can actually fit aircraft.
    For take off scenarios or low level ground attack, plus much smaller hangers for normal high flying, bombing etc.
    I also have a few almost full scale vehicles for strafing at low level or photos of downed aircraft near to them.
    In general, however I like much smaller scales as i mentioned in my previous post.
    Horses for courses really.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback View Post
    Sadly, I'm strictly Turf Side--trying to hand-paint US Measure 31-32-33 dazzle schemes would be the stuff of nightmares for me.
    Drink a six-pack of Red Bull, then hold a paint brush with each color over the model. >;)

  13. #13

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    Chris, have you SEEN the diagrams for the various MS 3_ paint schemes? A 1/1800 destroyer is about as long as one of my fingers with the hull around the height of a USB plug at extreme maximum, and with my hand tremors... so that's a market I shall leave to others, knowing my own limitations.
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  14. #14

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    Present thinking is to start with WWII offerings while I investigate WWI. How's this sound?

    ->Low Level series: ~1/300-ish scale (like GHQ Micro Armour), individual tanks/etc.
    ->Mid Level series: ~1/600-1/700-ish, buildings, airfields, complete vehicle formations like tank platoons.
    ->High Level series: ~1/1000-1/1200-ish, buildings/large area targets only
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  15. #15

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    Sounds about spot on to me DB.
    Then it would because that is just about what I do.
    Do you intend to make exact replicas of the same buildings etc at each scale for continuities sake?
    Only Iconic buildings such as Hougoumont, or the Seminary at Gettysburg seem to be available in all scales.
    Factories, churches, etc are much more difficult to match up.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  16. #16

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    Rob, if existing miniature availability allows, and if I can handle the task of working in 1/1200 I would be open to it--basically, what I'm doing is the painting, assembly and basing for those who have more budget than time and skill. (To be honest, my thinking was the three scales and altitudes would be three different targets--you'd seldom see the same building hit by both B-17 bombs and then later P-51 strafing. LL would be strafing targets, ML tactical bombing like by A-20s and such, HL is the realm of the Forts, Lancs etc.)

    The whole idea with Off The Shelf mini lines as "raw material"--and yes, I would identify whose miniature was being used as a base in the listing--is to be able to maintain a core catalog that I can run batches as an assembly line one after another, and crank out fast enough to build up some modest stock on hand. (Which is as much psychological as practical... if I see what I'm working on as "one of dozens" I get less attached to my works and it's easier to let them go.)
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  17. #17

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    Right DB.
    I get your drift.
    I'm afraid I'm still WWI orientated in my thinking. Plus I did not know you were just intending to paint existing lines.
    Your idea seems a great one from that perspective.
    I think you could well make a go of it.
    Some of the smaller scale stuff would certainly attract me. That's where my eyesight starts to let me down.

    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  18. #18

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    Bumping (and admittedly necro-ing) this to request feedback on a preliminary plan...

    Thinking about making up a test batch on 1/600 Pico Armor models--a handful each of A7V, Mk IV "Male," 76mm M4A1 Sherman and Panzer IV-G. Idea was to make up "opposed pairs," and I'd appreciate and refinements on better pairings since I was thinking "WWI trenches" and "Normandy Beachhead." I'm also going to need painting-and-markings pointers, since I know next to nothing about tanks and tank modeling...

    First platoons of each would be posted in the Workbench threads that month for y'all to assess as I work, then I was just discussing the idea of raffling off a few sets of Review Samples (each sample would be an opposed pair of platoons) as a site fundraiser, possibly for Lend-Lease next year, with Herr Oberst. (Yes, that means that agreeing to write a review--good, bad or ugly; I can't do better if I don't know WHAT I need to do better--as a condition of accepting a Review Package.)
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  19. #19

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    So, to bump this thread again and start solidifying a plan...

    Obviously I need to run a test batch of something to gather experience and information about time/resources involved. I'm thinking the samples would be one platoon each of an "opposed pair" (Sherman/Panzer; Mk IV/A7V) for the review stage. We're obviously looking at several layers of cost...
    1. Procurement of raw miniatures, including shipment to me.
    2. Production, including value of my labor, and shipment to Herr Oberst in Colorado.

    Questions:
    1. Should I prioritize the Low Altitude (GHQ/Similar) or Medium (Pico Armor/Similar) line for cranking out the first samples?
    2. WWI first or WWII? Tanks for WGF I need references on, Shermans and Panzers are easy.
    3. Other than tanks, what all would you guys like to see and what kind of targets would you like to see first? I have some quick and dirty ideas for "damaged/repairable" GHQ bridges, but I'm not sure how often bridges were hit by strafers and dive-bombers to be Lo-Level/larger scale targets. Smaller scales, damaged/destroyed bridges the labor cost would go WAY up, and my goal here is to get good value for both your money and my labor+financial investments. (So you should expect to pay quite a bit more than DIY, but hopefully less than if you hired a pro custom-work modeler because I'm trying to set things up in Job Lot-size batches for "economies of scale" so the $15/hour labor will spread across as many pieces as I can crank off the assembly line in that hour.)
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  20. #20

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    2mm by Irregular and 1/1000 Brigade Models buildings work well for WGF, whose ground scale is ~ 1/1000 (based on length of firing rulers and radii of turns on maneuver decks).

    http://brigademodels.co.uk/SmallScaleScenery/
    http://www.irregularminiatures.co.uk/

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  21. #21

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    I use 3D terrain a lot and try to use a variety of scales as a backdrop for the photos - to give an illusion of height. I'm with Simon (Maverick) on the WW1 targets, especially hangars of all descriptions for both sides. Scale varies, but I have just purchased a few 1/350 scale aircraft from Shapeways to experiment with and would be even happier with 1/300 if there was enough variety. But with targets in mind, most scales up to 1/144 would be of interest to me personally.
    Hope that helps

  22. #22

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    Been looking into tanks and artillery for targets. What is the favorite scale for these.

  23. #23

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    By my count there are currently 77 WWI planes available at 1:350, 62 at 1:300, and an impressive 200 at 1:285/6mm/1:288. There are also a few dozen at 1:600 and 1:700 in case you want really small, but those are more hit-or-miss. (For Shapeways I usually do those tiny scales by request only.)

    I haven't looked much at tanks, artillery, and buildings, but I know Heroics & Ros has some at 1:300.

  24. #24

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    "Skytrex"/"DAVCO" do 1/300 vehicles.

    So do "Scotia" Micromodels - "Navwar" has been swallowed up by "Heroics & Ros."

    "GHQ" and "C-in-C" for 1/285 vehicles.


    For buildings, I use ebay - there are dozens of sellers listing "6mm" buildings, of varying quality. Sometimes the "6mm" can be a bit flexible!

    "Irregular" miniatures is a good place to start, at the budget end of the market.

    "TimeCast" are the best in my opinion, but they're also the most expensive.

    I could try to post some pictures of mine, but I'll have to find them first!

  25. #25

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    One thing current 2mm ranges lack - WWI aerodrome tents and buildings. Portable hangers.


  26. #26

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    Zoe, something like that on a standard wings of glory card sized base would be a great target.

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by camelbeagle View Post
    Been looking into tanks and artillery for targets. What is the favorite scale for these.
    Targets in the previous photo - artillery battery, train, supply wagons.
    And of course bridges.

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  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by camelbeagle View Post
    Zoe, something like that on a standard wings of glory card sized base would be a great target.
    At 1/1000 could be problematic. It'd be cool, but it'd require scratchbuilding--and if I can't even build the old 1/48 Revell and Monogram models I grew up on anymore, because of the shakes, I think you can understand my reluctance to take on anything beyond painting and assembly of off-the-shelf existing miniatures. Better to not do something at all than to attempt a scratch that doesn't measure up to this community's standards--the labor and the shipping costs just getting the base minis to me aren't gonna be cheap, and I don't want to outshop anything that doesn't give both a return on the investment here and value for the money to its owner.
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  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    By my count there are currently 77 WWI planes available at 1:350, 62 at 1:300, and an impressive 200 at 1:285/6mm/1:288. There are also a few dozen at 1:600 and 1:700 in case you want really small, but those are more hit-or-miss. (For Shapeways I usually do those tiny scales by request only.)

    I haven't looked much at tanks, artillery, and buildings, but I know Heroics & Ros has some at 1:300.
    Daryl, WWI planes would be too much a nightmare for me to even consider. Unsteady hands, fine details, lack of a basic "just run an entire batch all painted the same" for most aircraft... WWII are still problematic, but at least somewhat doable.
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  30. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    One thing current 2mm ranges lack - WWI aerodrome tents and buildings. Portable hangers.
    Zoe: Well that could be easily remedied if there were any interest -- it would take me very little time to downscale my hangars and join a handful of them on a sprue. The Miniatures Page says that 2mm is about 1:805. Shapeways doesn't list 2mm in their scale lists, but the do have 1:800, which should be close enough.

    It's awfully tempting to try to rebuild that whole scene at 1:700 or 1:800 -- -wouldn't that be grand?

  31. #31

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    Daryl, that would be pretty neat. One could do a quick black prime with drybrush base and drybrush highlights it could look pretty good. Get some bases and glue them down. Bam! 3D targets.

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    Well that could be easily remedied if there were any interest --
    Definitely some interest here.

  33. #33

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    If the cost numbers can work, Daryl, I would be open to doing paint/basing on your tent hangars. Depends on costs and available reference material for colors, among other things, and I'm not up for the planes to go on 'em but airfield targets I'm willing to try.
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  34. #34

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    Yes a setup like Zoe's picture would be great. It would be a WWI partner for my WWII Hal Far Drome.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  35. #35

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    Rob, you thinking each hangar its own "target card" or one base for the entire airfield?

    For me, attempting such a project would require:
    *Site plan or sketch with runway length/width and distances to/between hangars and other structures
    *Hangar miniatures
    *References on hangar colors, support equipment, and (laugh all you like) how to model grass/dirt runway

    Did Entente and CP typically have different practices that I'd need to plan two different Target Models, or is it "you've seen one you've seen all"?
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  36. #36

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    I don't know of any front-line airfields using runways - just a wide expanse of open, fairly flat, grass field.

    My own 1/288 German airfield.......

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  37. #37

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    Nice setup, Tim! A lot bigger and more detailed than what I was thinking of, but definitely an inspiration.
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  38. #38

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    Very nice Tim. Ugh, now I'll have to do something like this!

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    Zoe: Well that could be easily remedied if there were any interest -- it would take me very little time to downscale my hangars and join a handful of them on a sprue. The Miniatures Page says that 2mm is about 1:805. Shapeways doesn't list 2mm in their scale lists, but the do have 1:800, which should be close enough.

    It's awfully tempting to try to rebuild that whole scene at 1:700 or 1:800 -- -wouldn't that be grand?
    It would. 1/800, 1/1000 or 1/1200 would do. A sprue of half a dozen hangers would be just what I need. I'd buy 3 straight away.

    As for 1/1000 aircraft - carved match or toothpick fuselage, office paper or thin styrene strip wings., 1cm - 1.25cm wingspan. Or 3d print. Fine detail not needed. Sprue of 6 or 12. At this scale, a strutter or dfw look close enough to each other.

  40. #40

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    Flying Helmut,

    That is pretty darn awesome!

  41. #41

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    Port Meadow Airfield, Oxford, from 1916. It is about 400m x 200m. Most airfields would be 300x300 or less near the front line. Just fields, really. Meadows.

  42. #42

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    I'll take a look this weekend (time permitting) at 1:800 tent hangars and Bessoneau hangars and maybe some matching fighters. Of course, I've already done some small airfield targets at roughly 1:1000, but those don't let you create a layout yourself.

  43. #43

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    Tim - that airfield is brilliant. My initial thought "Oh boy, I'd love to bomb that"

  44. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by camel crew View Post
    Tim - that airfield is brilliant. My initial thought "Oh boy, I'd love to bomb that"
    Some bu88ers already have!

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  45. #45

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    Now, I have to say, that looks like it was an awesome game!

  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by camelbeagle View Post
    Now, I have to say, that looks like it was an awesome game!
    Have a look here - https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sh...177#post458177

  47. #47

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    Nice! Loved the pictures of you took of it! Poor Nieuports!

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by camelbeagle View Post
    Poor Nieuports!
    They started it!

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Some bu88ers already have!
    Now Tim; if you didn't want it scratched, you shouldn't have put it on the table!
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Some bu88ers already have!

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    HAVOC!!! BEAUTIFUL DESTRUCTION!!! CAN WE TOSS ANOTHER?

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