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Thread: Werner Voss' Fokker F1

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    Default Werner Voss' Fokker F1

    I've had a Red Eagle Dr.1 kicking around for years and I thought I'd pint it up as Voss' F1 and use it for WoW/G. Unfortunately I've seen a bewildering number of conflicting reports about what colout the engine cowling was. Red? Green? Brown? Yellow? Extremely dark olive green?! Has there ever been a definitive aanswer to this one, or re any of these answers just as valid, this long after the event?

    And not historical, but related; I'v seen some lovely custom aircraft cards produced. Are there fan-produced templates for such cards?

    Thanks in advance for any help offered.

  2. #2

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    Not sure, but don't think I've ever seen a red version... most of the aritsts' and profilers' best guesses I've seen are either black or Fokker fuselage green like the rest of the bird.

    Don't call me an expert, and I have no authoritative sources...

  3. #3

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    In an ongoing & as yet unresolved discussion on the Aerodrome Historical Forum there are two schools of thought.
    1) Yellow which was the Jasta nose colour.
    Or Olive Green which would have been the ex factory Fokker Colour.

    Nothing firm from photographs due to the two different types which show colours in different shades.
    Now it could have been originally the Olive Green which would show the face more clearly & repainted Yellow later.

    Its really your call. Which ever you prefer.
    However discount any other colours.

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    Hmmm, I would and did one of each just to be ready . . . Easy when you employ elves : )

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    No definitive answer then Mike ! I'd go with the factory green finish just because if it was yellow I'd think that would have got a mention in reports of his last stand.

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    To be honest, the photos I have to hand (in the 'In Action' book) would suggest that the cowling was a darker colour than the fuselage... Yep, I'm dithering!

  7. #7

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    It wouldn't have been streaked like the fuselage so would maybe look darker than that. I've seen black in some artist's impressions but would still plump for the green myself. Happily with no definitive answer you can please yourself but I understand the dilemma - and whatever you do some rivet counter will tell you why it's wrong !

    "He is wise who watches"

  8. #8

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    I think it was dark green as some of you said. Images, paintings and whatevers dont look like yellow. But yellow would be cool too.
    Talking of Dr.I, does anyone made a blue and white Raben Dr.I? I know, i know it was red but blue is so good!
    Thanks


    Nick

  9. #9

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    Well, the fight he was in was so famous, and the reports from his opponents were so detailed that it would seem impossible they would overlook any notable colors on his plane, since those are the only way to really identify an opponent.

    It must have been a unremarkable factory/standard finish.

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    Looks like green (non-streaked!) is the way to go. Thanks for all your input, gentlemen.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barkmann View Post
    Talking of Dr.I, does anyone made a blue and white Raben Dr.I? I know, i know it was red but blue is so good!
    Thanks
    Nick
    I have a blue and white repaint I bought off ebay - it is very pretty! As far as I know it is correct; Raben flew a blue and white Dr1 in Italy as Staffelfuhrer of Jasta 39.

    The red and white scheme of Jasta 18 was only introduced in May of 1918, 2 months after the "Berthold Swap"

    So both schemes are correct.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barkmann View Post
    Talking of Dr.I, does anyone made a blue and white Raben Dr.I? I know, i know it was red but blue is so good!
    Thanks


    Nick
    Working on a shapeways Dr1 currently for Rabens blue/white Jasta 7 bird.

    On the cowling question. Several of the Osprey books I have talk about how "chromium yellow" photographed very dark. So if that was the paint used for yellow, perhaps it would show up dark. No expert, heck, barely a novice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    I have a blue and white repaint I bought off ebay - it is very pretty! As far as I know it is correct; Raben flew a blue and white Dr1 in Italy as Staffelfuhrer of Jasta 39.

    The red and white scheme of Jasta 18 was only introduced in May of 1918, 2 months after the "Berthold Swap"

    So both schemes are correct.
    Huh. I never knew the blue & white scheme had been confirmed. That's very cool! Funny how long people can spend trying to disprove something, only to ultimately find out that it was correct all along!

  14. #14

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    Here is it:

  15. #15

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    Why my images dont work anymore?!?!?!

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by greenalfonzo View Post
    I never knew the blue & white scheme had been confirmed. That's very cool! Funny how long people can spend trying to disprove something, only to ultimately find out that it was correct all along!
    I'm not sure that it has been "CONFIRMED" - as far as I am aware, the scheme is correct; but I've only been doing WGF for 2 years - I may well be wrong about this one! But if so, at least I'm not alone!

  17. #17

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    Ken Schmitt has a model painted and according to his write up the cowling on the model is green, he states he had access to Werner's diary and the info was in there.

    Here's the link:
    http://www.wwi-models.org/Images/Sch...ipe/index.html
    See you on the Dark Side......

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    I kind of hope some of the Shapeways guys might do an accurate F.1 triplane one of these days since it differed somewhat from the later production Dr.1 versions in some respects.
    Since there were only ever three F.1`s built its unlikely to be a commercial proposition for Ares or anybody else but it would be nice to see an accurate Voss model for once rather than another Dr.1 repaint which seems to be what everybody does.

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    I'd go with the green cowling, much like this 1966-era kit illustration.

    I think the argument AGAINST the yellow (film images not withstanding) is that visually...in real life...a white face against a yellow background would almost be almost invisible.

    White over dark green just makes more sense.


  20. #20

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    I agree with Brian. In Famous Aces Voss' Dr.I is depicted with the green option.

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey View Post


    I'd go with the green cowling, much like this 1966-era kit illustration.

    I think the argument AGAINST the yellow (film images not withstanding) is that visually...in real life...a white face against a yellow background would almost be almost invisible.

    White over dark green just makes more sense.

    I am with you on that Grey!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbit 3 View Post
    I kind of hope some of the Shapeways guys might do an accurate F.1 triplane one of these days since it differed somewhat from the later production Dr.1 versions in some respects.
    Since there were only ever three F.1`s built its unlikely to be a commercial proposition for Ares or anybody else but it would be nice to see an accurate Voss model for once rather than another Dr.1 repaint which seems to be what everybody does.
    I was at least going to file off the wingtip skids! In 1/144 I'm not sure I'm up for doing anything much more major than that!

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gangrel View Post
    I was at least going to file off the wingtip skids! In 1/144 I'm not sure I'm up for doing anything much more major than that!
    You should be able to trim his ailerons easily enough Mike

    "He is wise who watches"

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    You're probably right. I need to buy a better reference book!

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    I've done some research on this as I too am interested. Reports are conflicting, I'll detail what I know in a moment but first the Fokker Dr1 that Voss flew had a few differences to the later version. As noted above, no wing tip skids, the aileron shape was different and most notably the tailplane had a distinctive curved leading edge.

    Colours
    Karl Timm was Voss' mechanic, he stated in a post war interview that no repainting was done to Voss' Triplane and that the whole plane was factory standard with an olive cowl. However, Timm clearly slips up in his recollection since there was some repainting done – the face was added. The face itself is very like those the children of Voss' home town painted on their kites and it is thought that this is where the idea came from.

    WW1 photographs were taken with orthochromatic film so the colours don't reproduce in the same way that we understand of more modern black and white images. On orthochromatic film yellow goes very dark, so there is every possibility that the cowl could be yellow.

    Eye witness accounts from 56 squadron combat reports say the triplane was a silvery grey – I believe the light to non existent streaking over the rear portion of the plane makes this appearance entirely possible. I often see Spitfires flying around my house from the nearby museum and with the light reflecting off them even grey/green camo looks silver.

    Another combat report from 56 squadron states that the Voss Fokker was described as grey and brown. However, these reports have to be taken with a pinch of salt as one of the eyewitnesses say there were two Fokkers Triplanes involved when we know there was only one, such was Voss' ominpresence it might have seemed as if there were two of him. However, another tantalising combat report of the Voss Fokker describes it as brown and yellow, so perhaps this front on view indicates it was just the nose as yellow. We can't take any of these eye witness reports at face value given that we know of the errors they contain. The brown must refer to the Fokker streaking which looks very heavy towards the front of the plane. The yellow might refer to the cowl and possibly the rudder as well. The Imperial war museum has a Fokker DR1 rudder in their collection that is stated to have come from Voss' Fokker and it is yellow. However, we have no way of knowing if it really was from the Voss plane and the evidence suggests it was from a late DR1. When we see the photos the rudder does certainly look white and not yellow unless it was painted after the photo was taken. We know Voss spent a lot of time working with his mechanics on his planes to get them into a fine state of tune so it's entirely possible they spent some time repainting it bit by bit.

    I believe one of the high respected authorities on WW1 , perhaps Rimell or Imrie have proof that the nose of Voss' triplane was yellow. I have yet to read why they believe this to be the case.

    My own view is that the cowl was yellow even though painting white details on a yellow background seems a little unusual, were it yellow you might expect darker details to be added in black or olive paint.

    There's is more here:
    http://voss.hegewisch.net/color.html

    Other images here that make me strongly think yellow. Note the comparative lack of contrast of the facial details right on the front of the cowl where the light is hitting it and also note how dark the Fokker streaking looks in relation to the cowling.

    http://www.fokkerdr1.com/images/Fokk...017%20Prep.jpg

    http://www.fokkerdr1.com/images/Fokk...Fokker%202.jpg

    Note lack of much streaking over the rear giving rise to the very believable silvery blue colour when see in the air.
    http://www.fokkerdr1.com/images/Fokk...%20Cockpit.jpg

    McCudden's report on this action (against Voss 23 sept) carries a: 'Description of New-Type EA Triplane. This machine has stagger single struts, middle plane larger than top, and bottom plane shorter than the middle plane, and chord of the planes decreases from top to bottom planes. The wings are staggered outwards from the machine. 'Halberstadt' type rudder with no fin. No dihedral. Stationary motor.' Apart from the stationary motor (which we've already discussed) I think that's a pretty good description of a Fokker Triplane. Sloley's description of the triplane echoes M's, which suggest that they both compared notes afterwards, but with the Sloley's addition: 'The fuselage was of large square section and the rudder large, partly balanced and without fin, and was coloured yellow and brown.'

    The yellow might be the cowl or the colour the doped linen was under the Fokker Olive brown streaking. Both are possible.
    Last edited by Timmo UK; 11-02-2014 at 10:26.

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    What a great post; thanks very much. I've not been able to find much difference in the ailerons between the two aircraft though; even comparing kit ailerons with after-market resin replacements (to convert a Dr.1 into an F.1) seems to show next to no difference. These may just stay!

  28. #28

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    The cowling appears to be different to the rest of the nose in this shot but that could be put down to being painted on a different surface or by a different method, whatever colour it is, be it yellow or green, it seems to me that the wheels match the cowling:



    I look forward to seeing the different productions when decisions have been made !


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    I agree. I'm convinced at some stage, or throughout, it's short service life that the cowl and the wheels were the same colour. F1 103/17 might have had both an olive cowl and wheels AND a yellow cowl and wheels a few days later…

  30. #30

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    Does anyone have any information on any of Werner Voss's fellow pilot's plane's from his Jasta as I'd like to add a wingman or two

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    I think they will have been flying Pfalz DIII around the time Voss got the F1:

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Pf...w=1230&bih=790

    WoW did a Jasta 10 Pfalz but they got the colour scheme wrong although it's an easy fix if you can find one or two to repaint. You can do a few with just coloured tails so you won't need decals.

    The scheme with the long yellow horizontal bar that WoW did has been proven to be wrong, the horizontal line should be black. It was a problem with colour interpretation of orthochromatic film that I guess only really showed up when they were able to get a high quality reproduction of the original image, in which the distinct difference between the line and the yellow nose can be seen. I'm not sure how Nexus got it wrong as this is detailed in the easily available Osprey book.

    I'll add some will have been in Albatros fighters as well – they may have had a real mix. If you google Jasta 10 plenty will come up. At the time of his death Voss had the only F1 triplane in his Jasta – well as far as official records go. Some think there may have been more than two F1s delivered to the front line but records don't appear to support this conjecture. The other F1 102/17 was Richthofen's but this was shot down when flown by Wolff of Jasta 11. Records appear to confirm that at least five F1's were built.
    Last edited by Timmo UK; 11-04-2014 at 13:25.

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  33. #33

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    Interesting, but considering how many English pilots engaged Voss at close range over an extended period, if there were something as distinctive as yellow markings on the plane, they all would have mentioned it, as they could not have failed to notice it considering that's where their exclusive attention was, and that is how pilots were identified.

    Silly to discount the mechanic saying the plane wasn't repainted (adding a face is just adding some markings, not repainting), while presuming that 'yellow & brown' meant a yellow cowl or whatever. Only understandable as fans wanting something flashy and distinctive for such a famous pilot and fight.

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Rolf View Post
    Does anyone have any information on any of Werner Voss's fellow pilot's plane's from his Jasta as I'd like to add a wingman or two
    I've done Aloys Heldman and Friedrich Rudenberg's Pfalz (in my albums), Hans Klein is the one Nexus did and he took over the Jasta from Voss's 'acting' successor Max Kühn. Loads of info and choices out there for Jasta 10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by greenalfonzo View Post
    Interesting, but considering how many English pilots engaged Voss at close range over an extended period, if there were something as distinctive as yellow markings on the plane, they all would have mentioned it, as they could not have failed to notice it considering that's where their exclusive attention was, and that is how pilots were identified.

    Silly to discount the mechanic saying the plane wasn't repainted (adding a face is just adding some markings, not repainting), while presuming that 'yellow & brown' meant a yellow cowl or whatever. Only understandable as fans wanting something flashy and distinctive for such a famous pilot and fight.
    The fact that the pilots who were there at the time all officially reported something different indicates that they all thought they saw Voss' plane in a different light – quite literally. One calls it silver grey, one brown and yellow yet it's the same plane. One of them states there were two triplanes in the fight which records suggest was impossible. So in essence their visual recollection is not infallible. As I wrote quite clearly I stated that yellow and brown might refer to the fabric and the Fokker factory streaked finish.

    It is not silly to question Timm's recollection – he simply may not have remembered just as the squadron adjucant of Jasta 11 stated in a similar interview in the 1960s that Richthofen NEVER flew and all red aircraft yet we know that he did – Dr 17/425.

    However, some modern analysis of the images do support your view that it was Fokker standard olive. To counter that, and I really ought to have found the reference one of the most respected WW1 historians has claimed to have proof that the cowl was yellow.

    Now if taking part in such a discussion as this and suggesting some options and adding some historical detail is 'silly' I'm out of here…

  36. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmo UK View Post
    The fact that the pilots who were there at the time all officially reported something different indicates that they all thought they saw Voss' plane in a different light – quite literally. One calls it silver grey, one brown and yellow yet it's the same plane. One of them states there were two triplanes in the fight which records suggest was impossible. So in essence their visual recollection is not infallible. As I wrote quite clearly I stated that yellow and brown might refer to the fabric and the Fokker factory streaked finish.

    It is not silly to question Timm's recollection – he simply may not have remembered just as the squadron adjucant of Jasta 11 stated in a similar interview in the 1960s that Richthofen NEVER flew and all red aircraft yet we know that he did – Dr 17/425.

    However, some modern analysis of the images do support your view that it was Fokker standard olive. To counter that, and I really ought to have found the reference one of the most respected WW1 historians has claimed to have proof that the cowl was yellow.

    Now if taking part in such a discussion as this and suggesting some options and adding some historical detail is 'silly' I'm out of here…
    The Yellow cowl theory came about as Yellow noses were the Jasta ID colour.
    Werther Voss ever got around to changing the factory finish is the big question!

  37. #37

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    I did some Jasta 10 repaints, including the Pfalz Voss flew for a very short time. I really liked the yellow noses, and did 4 of them, including a 'factory fresh' one and with the Klein version they did gave me 6.. some good fun painting those up.

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    I found the reference I was looking for regarding the interview with Karl Timm.

    I knew that somewhere I had a piece by Alex Imrie on his thinking behind the colour of the Voss triplane cowl. It is in an issue of Windsock. Alex says.
    ‘When I first met Karl Timm in Berlin some 35 years ago I naturally asked as many questions as possible. Here was an important contact because Timm had been Voss’s mechanic in Jastas 2,5,14 and 10. But the simple truth of the matter was that Timm could not remember a great deal when asked specific questions. As regards the colouring of 103/17, Paul Parker prepared three large three-view colour plates and I took these to Timm to get his opinion of what plate most correctly approximated to the original machine. Timm’s selected plate then appeared in War Planes in Battledress 1914-1918 compiled by H D Hastings and Paul Parker published in 1963. I knew at the time of the Jasta 10 unit identification colour of yellow and obviously suggested this to Timm, but its mention did not ring a bell with him. Lacking official documentation, research into unit and individual markings is and on-going process, and with the passage of time our knowledge increases steadily: new photographs, snippets of information from old pilots’ letters and diaries, as well as the unearthing of isolated official documents have allowed us to reach the standard we enjoy today. However, much of what has been established over the years was published at the time and present day enthusiasts often chance upon these compilations from the past. Little wonder than, when the plethora of information is compared, that today’s student becomes unsure on a particular colour scheme for a colour plate or a model decoration. Personally I have long felt that the Voss cowling could have been yellow and having a print of Michael Turner’s graphic paiinting of the Voss fight, many years ago, I got Joe Michie to paint the cowling of 103/17 yellow, insert slots into the LMG 08/15 machine gun mantles and remove Voss’s helmet to show instead the pilot’s hair dishevelled by the slipstream! These changes updated the painting to my way of thinking.
    My study of the Fokker triplane showed that a number of early Fokker triplanes apparently were delivered with unpainted aluminium cowlings. I cover this in my book and suggest the reason for it. Since the photographs of 101/17 show this feature, despite the airframe being camouflaged in the typical Fokker manner, the possibility exists that both 102/17 and 103/17 were delivered in this way. Since the cowlings of these two machines are obviously overpainted the chances are that these were red for 102/17 and yellow for 103/17(applied in the field). The revelation that the facial markings used by Voss were of Japanese origin and used on kites in that country in white against a yellow background and the connection with Voss’s youth gave the clue as to the reason why he adopted the unusual marking.

    Olive looks more likely but we just have to accept we don't know for certain. Equally interesting is the notion that there is a possibility and some evidence to support the idea that there were more Triplanes of the F1 type supplied to the front line other than 102 and 103 and before the Dr1 production models started to appear.

    All interesting stuff.

  39. #39

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    That's great information, when I originally painted my F1 for Voss I had given it a yellow nose to represent the Jasta 10 colors. Then after discussions here i changed it to green. Now I'm wondering if I should change it back, and finallymputnthe face on it. Hmmmm such a delema. lol

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    I'll add that the yellow and brown reference is almost certainly the factory camo over natural linen. Apparently one of the finishes – I guess the waterproofing varnish gave the linen a more yellow colour. Once the Fokker olive is thinned the paint will break down to constituent parts so when thinned it might look quite grey. The colour has been described as earth grey, so a kind of Khaki. As before all these differences of view point, lighting conditions and colour can be describing the same colour/aircraft. Looking down on the plane the yellow brown makes sense, seeing it from below or with sunlight reflecting off semi gloss surfaces could easily render it to look silvery grey/blue. People often take that at face value and think it means silver blue paint. I'm 100% sure it is reflection of light.

    There is one high res reproduction of a picture that has been published that I don't have a copy of that apparently shows the cowl and wheels of F1 103 were painted quite roughly with paint brush marks and colour going over the tyres. I've not seen this picture so can't comment. At the end of the day you can paint your Voss model with an olive or yellow cowl and nobody can tell you that you're wrong, that is until conclusive proof comes to light either way and I doubt it ever will.

  41. #41

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    Excellent info Tim!
    The late Alex Imrie was a "Lion" in the field of WW1 Aviation history & is greatly missed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rote Flügel View Post
    That's great information, when I originally painted my F1 for Voss I had given it a yellow nose to represent the Jasta 10 colors. Then after discussions here i changed it to green. Now I'm wondering if I should change it back, and finallymputnthe face on it. Hmmmm such a delema. lol
    Simple solution build two models, one in each scheme!



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