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Thread: 1903-1922 Request Thread

  1. #1

    Smile 1903-1922 Request Thread

    Daryl (aka Reduced Air Factory) suggested starting two new threads to rejuvenate the request process, so here's the first, for the pre-World War One to Russian Civil War period. There are three Russian planes I'd like to see modeled, starting with the Sikorsky S-16. It's an interesting little scout, was possibly the first Russian aircraft to carry a synchronized machine gun, and was originally intended to serve as an escort fighter for Ilya Murometz bombers.
    The old request thread asked for three views and pictures of the aircraft desired, which should probably continue. I make no claim to own any of the following images; they're included to give our Shapeways designers an idea of what the aircraft looked like and what making models of them might entail.

    S-16 Three Views:
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    S-16 Images:
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    Next would be the Grigorovich M-5 and M-9 flying boat scouts. The Imperial Russian Navy was actually almost abreast of the RN in developing naval aviation during WWI in several areas, and future aircraft designer Alexander Seversky flew and fought in these aircraft during the war.

    M-5 Three Views:
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    M-5 Images:
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    M-9 Three View:
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    M-9 Images:
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    And finally, the Anatra D and Anasal DS reconnaissance and light bomber two-seaters. Neither was a spectacular performer (although the DS had better numbers and was more robust) or was produced in huge numbers, but they were long serving and don't quite look like other two-seaters, including the Aviatiks they were based on.

    Anatra D Three Views:
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    Anatra D Images:
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    Anasal DS Images (the DS was basically an Anatra D with a bigger radial engine replacing the D's 100 hp rotary):
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    All of these aircraft saw at least limited use in the Russian Civil War, so their utility does go beyond the WWI Eastern Front period. They're all that I have to request for now; I'll probably be able to think of others eventually--although I'd be happy to be beaten to that .
    Last edited by DarrylH; 07-07-2014 at 23:59.

  2. #2

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    I'll take a shot at the Anatras. The D had two different cowlings (one shorter one without holes and the longer one with cooling holes). According to The Imperial Russian Air Service, 170 of the D Anade's were built; 70 of the DS Anasal's. Bombers 1914-1918 says 76 D's were at the [Eastern] front in April 1917 but that had fallen to 40 by June.

  3. #3

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    Very much looking forward to your designs, Daryl. Going by the photographs I've found, the D with the cooling holes in the cowling was probably more common; meanwhile, there is one preserved DS, whose photographs will probably be of help with your work. Ira Boucher's WWI Aviation site also mentions an Anatra variant with, IIRC, two airframes joined together He-111Z style, with a gunner's gondola in between, which I suppose might appeal to those who find the SPAD A2 a little too tame .

  4. #4

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    The FBA type H would be good:


    Crew: Three
    Length: 9.92 m
    Wingspan: 14.72 m
    Armament:
    1 × 0.303 in (7.7 mm) Lewis gun fixed to fuselage, or mounted on post in nose cockpit
    200 kg (440 lb) of bombs

    Used by France, Italy and Belgium from 1916 onwards.

    Ian

  5. #5

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    Showing a little love for the Imperial and Royal Air Force, I'd also like to put in a request for our Shapways designers for the Hansa-Brandenburg G.I. A fairly handsome but not very successful design, it saw only limited service with the Austro-Hungarians; about 50 were built. It's also not any easy aircraft to find images of. Here's a three view:
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    And here are a couple of artist's renditions and a photograph:
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  6. #6

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    Darryl, all excellent choices.

  7. #7

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    Thanks, John. I've received and painted Reduced Aircraft Factory's Anade (Anatra D) and Anasal (Anatra DS), and plan to have pictures posted soon. Daryl is working on the FBA Type H suggested by Ian (Womble), and with luck, the other suggestions might eventually become realities also.

  8. #8

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    Lest anyone think we're running short on 1/144 WWI planes to do, here are several that (last I looked) didn't have a Shapeways source, served as something other than a trainer, and had a hundred or more built. And I'm sure there are many I've missed, plus dozens of designs produced in smaller quantities. (Ones in grey have been completed since this was originally posted.)

    Farman H.F.20 (3310, though mostly trainers), L.V.G. C.II (743 not counting trainers), S.I.A. 7B (501, though frequently grounded), Armstrong-Whitworth F.K.3 (500, though mostly trainers), Donnet Leveque D.D.8 (500), Grigorovich M.9 (500), Voisin 5&6 (459), Hannover CL.II (439), Savoia-Pomolio S.P.2 (402), Savoia-Pomilio S.P.3 (300), Donnet Leveque D.D.2 (401), Maurice Farman M.F.7 (358, though mostly trainers), Nieuport 4/6M (300 in Russia), D.F.W. C.IV (hundreds?), Fokker D.III (210), Caproni Ca.5 (255), Caudron R.4 (249), F.B.A. Type B (230), Gotha G.IV (230), Letord 4 (220?), Lebed 12 (214), Ago C.IV (70-200), Breguet-Michelin 4 (200), Macchi M.3 (200), A.E.G. N.I (200?), Rumpler B.I (198), Tellier T.3 (190), Sopwith 2F.1 (189), Curtis H.12/H.16 (175), Caproni Ca.2/Ca32 (164), Lohner L (160), Anantra V.I (150), Macchi L.I (139), Friedrichshafen FF33I (135), D.F.W. C.I (130), Fiat R-2 (129), S.E.A. 4 (115), Sablatnig SF-5 (101), D.F.W. B.I & B.II (100), Donnet Leveque D.D.9 (100), Henri Farman H.F.27 (100), Felixstowe F.3 (100), Georges Levy-Besson 40 H.B.2 (100), Levy-Besson Triplane Flying Boat (100), Grigorovich M.5 (>100), Lloyd C.II & C.III (100), Oeffag C.II (64), Voisin 7 (100). Plus some interesting ones like the SPAD 17 and Hanroit H.D.3. Lots left to do.
    Last edited by ReducedAirFact; 04-11-2019 at 00:00. Reason: Tellier T.3 done

  9. #9

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    The F.B.A. Type B (230) is an important flying boat also used by Italy. Hopefully after the Macchi flying boat comes out it sparks an interest in aerial sea warfare.

  10. #10

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    Great list Daryl.

    The Lohner L would also fit well with the FBA type B. The Lohner was reverse engineered by Nieuport Macchi so could also be painted up as a Macchi L.1.

    A ships Camel (2f.1) would be a great addition for North Sea battles. They could save the FBA type H that you're currently designing (thanks for that).

    Ian

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Womble View Post
    Great list Daryl.

    The Lohner L would also fit well with the FBA type B. The Lohner was reverse engineered by Nieuport Macchi so could also be painted up as a Macchi L.1.

    A ships Camel (2f.1) would be a great addition for North Sea battles. They could save the FBA type H that you're currently designing (thanks for that).

    Ian
    I have three Lohner Ls from a company called Sora. I really like them. They come prepainted. The other WW1 aircraft they offer are way out of scale.

  12. #12

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    Sikorsky S-16 is another must for the Russians.

    Sikorsky was a real interesting man. What he was able to achieve in is lifetime is amazing. I'm a big fan.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by john snelling View Post
    I have three Lohner Ls from a company called Sora. I really like them. They come prepainted. The other WW1 aircraft they offer are way out of scale.
    Yes I've a couple of them. A bit off scale but quite usable. The rigging on them is a nice touch.

  14. #14

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    2 That are a must. We really really need a Lohner L first off.

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    The second is the first German bomber to strike England - setting up a tradition for a third of a century. The LVG C.II

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  15. #15

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    A repeat request:



    Length: 9.50 m (31 ft 2 in)
    Wingspan: 16.80 m (55 ft 1 in)
    Height: 3.00 m (9 ft 10 in)

    500 produced of DD-8 and DD-9 versions (DD-9 had 2x2 Lewis, DD-8 had 2x1 Lewis)

    A French 3-seater seaplane, needed for Channel seaplane battles involving HD-2s, HB-15s, F2As and the like.

  16. #16

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    Repeat request - HB D1 X-strutter with later type tail


  17. #17

  18. #18

  19. #19

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    I like the look of all the flying boats. However I am none to good at getting that smoth finish on the shapeways models (the only decent one I have was done for me by Clipper) so although they are attractive I think I will give them a miss.

  20. #20

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    Halberstadt D.V

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    Differences from D.III - cutout rounded not square, extra radiator on top wing, exhaust to right not vertical, some had 2 guns and extra radiator on sides, a few had Mercedes engines with thin pipe exhaust on right side extending to aft of cockpit.

    Compare with mercedes-engined D.II

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  21. #21

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    SE5 not SE5a!

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    Note overwing gravity tank, lack of headrest, as well as non-square underside of nose.

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  22. #22

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    Love that farm tractor with wings!

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    Repeat Request - OAW D-III with rounded tail.
    Done: http://shpws.me/BmWG.

    Any call for a twin-radiator D.III, as was used in Palestine?

  24. #24

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    With the new Jack Herris book on German G types any chance of some these obscure ones

    AEG GIII
    AEG GV
    Albatross GIII
    LVG GIII
    Rumpler GII and GIII

    Or would shapeways prices prohibit these now ?

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    Done: http://shpws.me/BmWG.

    Any call for a twin-radiator D.III, as was used in Palestine?
    Yes Please!

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boney10 View Post
    With the new Jack Herris book on German G types any chance of some these obscure ones

    AEG GV

    Or would shapeways prices prohibit these now ?
    I'd like to vote for the AEG G.V also. Plus the AEG G.IVb which had a longer wingspan (24m vs 18.4m), so it could carry a 1000kg P.u.W bomb

    Also, a range of P.u.W bombs would be great too!
    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoe Brain View Post
    A repeat request:



    Length: 9.50 m (31 ft 2 in)
    Wingspan: 16.80 m (55 ft 1 in)
    Height: 3.00 m (9 ft 10 in)

    500 produced of DD-8 and DD-9 versions (DD-9 had 2x2 Lewis, DD-8 had 2x1 Lewis)

    A French 3-seater seaplane, needed for Channel seaplane battles involving HD-2s, HB-15s, F2As and the like.
    Length WRONG. Not 31'2" but 35'2". Corresponding to 10.7m.
    The figure came from a US source - some were delivered to the USN - all European sources say 10.7m, and the drawings match that.
    90 years ago, someone wrote 31 instead of 35. And that hadn't been detected till now.

    Yea Us. My thanks to Daryl (ReducedAircraftFactory) for pointing me to the anomaly and asking if I could account for it. Good teamwork!

    Just updated the Wiki page, with correct figures, additional references.
    Last edited by Zoe Brain; 02-24-2015 at 01:02.

  28. #28

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    Hoping someone can come up with a Sopwith cuckoo:
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    I'm wanting to run a game at Origins next year. If a Lewis MG could be put on the top wing (yes, I know it was unarmed), that would save me the trouble.
    Thanks Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrylH View Post
    Showing a little love for the Imperial and Royal Air Force, I'd also like to put in a request for our Shapways designers for the Hansa-Brandenburg G.I. A fairly handsome but not very successful design, it saw only limited service with the Austro-Hungarians; about 50 were built. It's also not any easy aircraft to find images of. Here's a three view:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    And here are a couple of artist's renditions and a photograph:
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    I too would love one of these - and a later version of the KD1 with the larger tail

  30. #30

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    It would be the frosting on the cake for my AH air force of 40 ac.

  31. #31

  32. #32

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    While the Brandenburg G.I's were in development and testing from mid-1916 to mind 1917, they spent almost all of their lives being refit and rebuilt due to various structural and design deficiencies. According to Austro-Hungarian Army Aircraft of World War One, "only a single mission was recorded in the Fluggeschwader I war diary". The entire program was a disaster. Given that it's more of a historical footnote, is there still interest in a model?

  33. #33

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    Yes, Daryl. As gamers, we can explore what might have been, and also, there were other Austro-Hungarian aircraft that should only have been historical footnotes also but which did see active service (the Hansa-Brandenburg D.I springs immediately to mind).

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    While the Brandenburg G.I's were in development and testing from mid-1916 to mind 1917, they spent almost all of their lives being refit and rebuilt due to various structural and design deficiencies. According to Austro-Hungarian Army Aircraft of World War One, "only a single mission was recorded in the Fluggeschwader I war diary". The entire program was a disaster. Given that it's more of a historical footnote, is there still interest in a model?
    I'd buy one. Then again I have a Ponnier M1

    The fact there is only one mission on record and it was a disaster of a program doesnt really put me off, as what I want is an Austrian heavy bomber for my collection, so I can fly either that one raid or a "what if"

    So, yes please.

    And a Hansa Brandenburg D1 (KD) late model with the bigger tail and the top wing gun replaced with a synchronised one

  35. #35

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    Don't get me wrong -- I like some of the things that never flew too. I've been tempted more than once to model a Tarrant Tabor!
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  36. #36

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    Looking at these ideas from the perspective of a producer becomes a bit intimidating. Designing the components would be a challenge but do-able. The Golden Oldies are fairly uncomplicated shapes, connected by thickets of struts, wires, and optimism. Melding the bits into a kit which can be built up without tears or unseemly oaths and imprecations, rigged, and painted (and therefor sold in sufficient numbers to at least pay for the RTV!) might be more difficult.

    This might be a good application for one of the resin 3D printers. If someone were to print such models in the jewelers wax resin formulation, the waxes could be reproduced using the lost wax/cire perdu method in a material like brass. That would provide clean, strong models ready for painting and able to withstand the rigours of travel and table top confrontations. Any thoughts on that?

    Ron

  37. #37

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    Looking at these ideas from the perspective of a producer becomes a bit intimidating. Designing the components would be a challenge but do-able. The Golden Oldies are fairly uncomplicated shapes, connected by thickets of struts, wires, and optimism. Melding the bits into a kit which can be built up without tears or unseemly oaths and imprecations, rigged, and painted (and therefor sold in sufficient numbers to at least pay for the RTV!) might be more difficult.

    This might be a good application for one of the resin 3D printers. If someone were to print such models in the jewelers wax resin formulation, the waxes could be reproduced using the lost wax/cire perdu method in a material like brass. That would provide clean, strong models ready for painting and able to withstand the rigours of travel and table top confrontations. Any thoughts on that?

    Ron

  38. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar200 View Post
    Looking at these ideas from the perspective of a producer becomes a bit intimidating. Designing the components would be a challenge but do-able. The Golden Oldies are fairly uncomplicated shapes, connected by thickets of struts, wires, and optimism. Melding the bits into a kit which can be built up without tears or unseemly oaths and imprecations, rigged, and painted (and therefor sold in sufficient numbers to at least pay for the RTV!) might be more difficult.

    This might be a good application for one of the resin 3D printers. If someone were to print such models in the jewelers wax resin formulation, the waxes could be reproduced using the lost wax/cire perdu method in a material like brass. That would provide clean, strong models ready for painting and able to withstand the rigours of travel and table top confrontations. Any thoughts on that?

    Ron

    Hi Ron

    Not sure if you have missed the gist of this one - Daryl has a Shapeways store that produces in 3d prints on demand. They tend to be one piece models, with options of materials used. I'm sure you could use lost wax and a metal to reproduce them but the costs would be astronomical. As it is the Shapeways process allows you to print on demand single models so is great for us looking for a whacky out there model - assuming Daryl is happy to do the 3d work required

  39. #39

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    I think I understand the issues. 3D printing is a key ingredient that lets you produce a prototype of one of these all assembled and more or less ready to paint (depending on the resolution and surface quality). Then each copy that is printed is literally another prototype. My hangup is the fragility of the 3D printed biplanes and triplanes that I've gotten from Shapeways. I handle models a lot while I'm cleaning up castings, improving surfaces, adding details, painting, and applying decals. They get handled even more when I play with them and when visiting Philistines see them and cannot resist. The ABS filament printing we can get today just does not make a strong enough model for that sort of stress. That is why I like the lost wax capability. A material like a brass alloy can produce a durable model with close to scale appearance of struts and fixed gear.

    The cottage jewelry/art folks and model railroaders appear to be into this bigtime. Because you can 3D print cheaply in wax, that means they can use a cheap plaster/ refractory cement instead of RTV to make molds/flasks, which lets you pour extremely intricate, complex models using inexpensive metals. The hard part is in the sprues, but you only do that once. Then the sprues are copied as part of the pattern.

    The comparison is a bit "apples and oranges", because for hobby tasks we are limited today to low cost technologies like fused ABS filaments. 3D printing is actually a whole family of additive technologies. It is entirely possible to print a bronze, brass, titanium, steel triplane floatplane with suspended motors between the wings using laser sintered metal powders, and that would be very comparable to a lost wax product. The problem is that today the equipment for that can be well into 5 kilobucks. A couple of years from now we will be able to walk into our neighborhood 3D hub and order the same print in a laser and oxygen cured resin filled with your choice of metal powders.

    One more comment. 3D printing is a blessing to designers in another hidden but vital regard. A 3D printed model is essentially one gigantic monomer molecule of fused ABS or other resin. That turns out to be critical. Cottage producers traditionally made masters from materials like polystyrene plastic. Styrene is inexpensive, especially if you buy it in sheets and slabs. It is also easily worked with hobby tools and crafts grade power tools. It is readily shaped, feathered, engraved, and polished. And styrene can be "welded" on the desktop with readily available solvents. We have encountered two different kinds of problems with that construction. First, styrene solvent cements can get trapped inside of large joints (eg, wing to fuselage) and laminations (eg, solid halves of fuselages), and that can cause nasty deformations when the unevaporated solvent continues to liquify styrene. We have also noted that

  40. #40

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    Good comments, but I suggest this topic be split off in a separate thread, since it has wandered far afield of the 1903-1922 Requests theme and threatens to drift further. Ron, perhaps you could start a new thread on the topic? I'll be happy to respond.

  41. #41

  42. #42

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    I agree Zoe, and after the current offering, it don't look as if Ares is going to fill the gap any time soon.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    I agree Zoe, and after the current offering, it don't look as if Ares is going to fill the gap any time soon.
    Rob.
    I have the Christmas tree decoration one - not too bad actually

  44. #44

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    Yes I got that too, but should have got another. One is never enough for a sortie is it.
    Rob.
    "Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."

  45. #45

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    Lohner L (where do they hide the Umlauts here?????). I know Peter Krtina made a really nice one in 1/200. Check Rod Langton's web site also for listings of WWI waterfowl. Rod's metal kits are really nice.

    Ron

  46. #46

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    Responding late - a busy week - to Daryl's comments about moving the 3D printing discussion. I agree. I'll start a new thread under the "Shapeways" heading.

    Ron

  47. #47

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    Here's a request for our Shapeways designers to consider: The Curtiss HS flying boat, which first flew in 1917. It saw ASW service in France and the Azores during World War One, saw further service for several years postwar (one of the pictures enclosed shows a Navy HS-2L flying over Pensacola with a very nonchalant-and shirtless-crewman in the bow), and surplus airframes would also eventually become the first important type used by Canadian bush pilots. There were two variants, which were generally so similar that USN records don't differentiate between them; the HS-1L, with three bay wings, and the HS-2L (almost certainly the more numerous of the two), which had a twelve foot longer wingspan and four bay wings in order to be able to carry larger depth bombs than the HS-1. As always, I claim no ownership of these images; they're included to give the designers a look at what would be involved.

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  48. #48

    Default

    It's certainly on my "I should do that" list. I love its lines.

    As for the Lohner L... it's moving along.
    http://shpws.me/IZO2

  49. #49

    Default

    Agreed, the Curtiss is a nice one. (As are some other Curtiss designs that haven't seen much love.)

    I like doing the flying boat designs, but they're a bit more work than a conventional airplane because the hull tends to be more complex to sculpt than the average fuselage, and the engine is fully exposed. By the way, I've got a Grigorovich M-9 ready for a test print: http://shpws.me/J0Mk. Until I researched it, I didn't realize 500 were made...that's a pretty large production run, especially for the Russians.

    I would not expect Ares to do a lot of naval-only aircraft (putting aside their awful Sopwith Triplane) -- the demand is probably significantly lower than your popular fighters in pretty colors. Fortunately there is 3D printing to cover the gaps, for those willing to paint!

  50. #50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ReducedAirFact View Post
    I like doing the flying boat designs, but they're a bit more work than a conventional airplane because the hull tends to be more complex to sculpt than the average fuselage, and the engine is fully exposed. By the way, I've got a Grigorovich M-9 ready for a test print: http://shpws.me/J0Mk. Until I researched it, I didn't realize 500 were made...that's a pretty large production run, especially for the Russians.
    The Imperial Russian Navy was actually very forward thinking regarding naval aviation, grouping seaplane carriers into strike groups in the Baltic and being ahead or abreast of the Royal Navy and RNAS in many ways, so 500 M-9s being built doesn't surprise me upon learning of it.

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