F4U Corsair, fair bet to use P deck?

[Lord_Ninja]

About to order a couple of F4U corsairs from aim to represent some late war F4U-4 to battle my Ki-84s and A6M5 Zeros (using house rules for the latter of course) and was thinking that the P deck would be the fairest deck to use for this bent wing monstrosity. With a top speed of 448 mph (and some of the slower variants being between 417-425mph) this would fit the speed of the deck (P-51D being 437 mph). Almost tempted to wait until the ol' Razerback was released being a heavy fighter as well (F4U being 12,405 lb/5,626 kg and the P-47 weighing in at 13,300 lb/6,032 kg loaded) to portray the Corsair on the table accurately I noticed the Corsair's bent wing gave the Corsair a similar wingspan but considerably more wing area than the P-47. The Corsair had a 41' to the Thunderbolts 40' but an almost 50' sq advantage (350' sq to 300' sq respectively). And with FrizttheFox's website confirming the wing load-out of the Mustang, Corsair, and Thunderbolt at 42 lb/sq, 44 lb/sq, and 49 lb/sq respectively. So, P deck for the Corsair, any thoughts?

[Jager]

My proposal for the Corsairs are:
Vought F4U-1A: Maneuver: P; hits: 21; climb: 4; ceiling: 13; guns: B-B-B/B-A
Vought F4U-1D: Maneuver: P; hits: 21; climb: 4; ceiling: 13; guns: B-B-B/B-A
Vought F4U-4: Maneuver: P; hits: 21; climb: 4; ceiling: 14; guns: B-B-B/B-A
Vought F4U-4C: Maneuver: P; hits: 21; climb: 4; ceiling: 14; guns: C-C-C-C/C-C
Note that the 4 and 4C edge out of the P deck for speed, but not much we can do about that.
Karl

[Naharaht]

I think that climb 4 is too high. Statistics I have seen suggest that a Corsair could outclimb a Mustang.

[Jager]

I think that climb 4 is too high. Statistics I have seen suggest that a Corsair could outclimb a Mustang.

From the ADCs from FWs, except on deck, the P-51 is at least 200 fpm higher than the F4U-1D; the F4U-4, definitely better.
Checking with the Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate (climb 2), it's actually better. So the F4U-4 should be a 2. Thanks David.
Corrected:
Vought F4U-1A: Maneuver: P; hits: 21; climb: 4; ceiling: 13; guns: B-B-B/B-A
Vought F4U-1D: Maneuver: P; hits: 21; climb: 4; ceiling: 13; guns: B-B-B/B-A
Vought F4U-4: Maneuver: P; hits: 21; climb: 2; ceiling: 14; guns: B-B-B/B-A
Vought F4U-4C: Maneuver: P; hits: 21; climb: 2; ceiling: 14; guns: C-C-C-C/C-C
Karl

[Black Sheep One]

Bless you, Lord_Ninja, for asking this question. I was starting to think of the same question. And thanks Karl and David for your information as well.

Now, if only Ares would come out with the Corsair...

[Jager]

Now, if only Ares would come out with the Corsair...

New Ray planes: http://www.newrayusa.com/index.php?l...ine=25&id=2118
Karl

[csadn]

Mmm -- FAA Corsairs against Luftwaffe -109s and -190s....

"Supermarine *what*?" >;)

[Jager]

Mmm -- FAA Corsairs against Luftwaffe -109s and -190s....

"Supermarine *what*?" >

Played that with the Buffalo Wings game (training wheels version of Fighting wings). Close matchup against the Fw-190s, but stats were better all around. The Fw190s tried slashing attacks, and fought it to a draw.
Which makes Brown's assertion that the Shrike was the better of the two
Karl

[Black Sheep One]

New Ray planes: http://www.newrayusa.com/index.php?l...ine=25&id=2118
Karl

Like those. Are they 1/200th scale?

Randy

[csadn]

Played that with the Buffalo Wings game (training wheels version of Fighting wings). Close matchup against the Fw-190s, but stats were better all around. The Fw190s tried slashing attacks, and fought it to a draw.
Which makes Brown's assertion that the Shrike was the better of the two

I used _Mustangs_; the Corsairs easily outmaneuvered the -109s, and generally outmaneuvered the -190s. Coupled to a generally-better gun factor... well, the fights were nasty, brutish, short, and always in favor of the Allies.

Not sure who Brown is; but if he's claiming the Germans had any fighters better than what the US had after '43, he's smoking crack.

[Jager]

Like those. Are they 1/200th scale?

Randy

1/190th; close enough for union work
Karl

[Black Sheep One]

Found me a new toy! Got two more coming.

[Marechallannes]

Nice one, Randy.

[Пилот]

Randy, could you post photo of those planes next to WoW/WoG ones?

[Tokhuah]

The Corsair looks great! It would be nice to see them next to some WW2 WoG models.

[DarrylH]

That would be Eric Brown, a Royal Navy test pilot who flew several hundred different types of aircraft during his career. I remember reading that he disliked the Corsair intensely, comparing it very unfavorably to the Hellcat. While it was certainly more difficult to fly than the F6F, I don't think that the F4U loses a comparison to the Hellcat any more than it does one against the 190 or 109, but I also remember thinking that at times his book about WWII naval aircraft (Wings of the Navy) felt like an advertisement for Grumman.

[Black Sheep One]

Randy, could you post photo of those planes next to WoW/WoG ones?

The Corsair looks great! It would be nice to see them next to some WW2 WoG models.

Here are a couple of picture, comparing the 1:190 scale Corsair with the 1:200 scale Ares Mustang and Spitfire:

[Naharaht]

The Corsair model does not look at all out of place.

I trust that when Ares does produce official Corsair models one of them will belong to the Royal Navy, because the Fleet Air Arm were operating them from carriers before the U.S.A., although they had to shorten the wings slightly to stow them below deck.

[Tokhuah]

It looks next to the other models. Did you have to do any mods to mount it to the peg?

[Black Sheep One]

The Corsair model does not look at all out of place.

I trust that when Ares does produce official Corsair models one of them will belong to the Royal Navy, because the Fleet Air Arm were operating them from carriers before the U.S.A., although they had to shorten the wings slightly to stow them below deck.

It looks next to the other models. Did you have to do any mods to mount it to the peg?

I tried to use a gimbal mount, but the plane is too heavy. Jager suggested a larger magnet mount, so I am checking in to that.

The plane is mounted to a stand. I removed it from the stand, and on the bottom is two holes. The one closet to the engine cowl is where the top of the stand attached to the plane. It is also what attaches the wings to the fuselage. That screw is too tall without the stand, so I trimmed it down. The other hole is the perfect size for an attitude peg placed upside down. So I super glued two attitude pegs together, and will paint it so that it can't be confused with the other pegs. I am exploring other ideas, and if anyone has something for me to try, let me know. I am thinking of also taking the two pegs and cutting them down in half so it won't be so tall.

Let me add one other thing: the peg fits, but it is tight. I might try to file to small end of the peg down to make the diameter a bit smaller.

[OldGuy59]

Found me a new toy! Got two more coming.

Get it on the table, Randy!


[Edit: Updated with new maneuver deck, and two-sided format]

PS: This is matched to the new maneuver deck size, so it should be good to go.

[Teaticket]

New Ray planes: http://www.newrayusa.com/index.php?l...ine=25&id=2118
Karl

Karl, where did you get these from? I can't find any retailer that carries them.

[Jager]

Karl, where did you get these from? I can't find any retailer that carries them.

I find them at Hobby Lobby; the availability is irregular, as the stores get them without ordering (or so was told by a clerk at one).
Check the toy/model planes aisles.
It looks like you only have one in the whole state
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ho...c5d97647?hl=en
Karl

[Teaticket]

Thanks Karl. Hmmm, I'm not usually in that part of the state. Will have to come up with some excuse to go for a ride with the Welsh Dragon(lovely wife) and just stumble on the shop.

[OldGuy59]

The Corsair model does not look at all out of place.

I trust that when Ares does produce official Corsair models one of them will belong to the Royal Navy, because the Fleet Air Arm were operating them from carriers before the U.S.A., although they had to shorten the wings slightly to stow them below deck.

Dave,
If you can find a model, here is something that might help:


[Edit: Updates with T maneuver deck and two-sided format]

[Naharaht]

Thank you for designing the card. It might be better to give the roundels white centres because the Corsairs were used by the Royal Navy in the Pacific.

[Black Sheep One]

Get it on the table, Randy!


Attachment 147456

PS: This is matched to the new maneuver deck size, so it should be good to go.

Thanks Mike! I printed it as a "wallet" sized picture, and it seem to be close to the right size. I laminated it at work, so I am good to go. Might even try it out this weekend! Thanks alot!

[OldGuy59]

Thank you for designing the card. It might be better to give the roundels white centres because the Corsairs were used by the Royal Navy in the Pacific.

Corsairs flew in Norway and the Mediteranian, not just the Pacific. I took the color scheme from this model paint guide: Airfix Vought F4U Corsair FAA

This plane was part of attacks against the KMS Tirpitz during Operation GOODWOOD. The kit includes Hammy Grey's bird with the more iconic paint scheme and roundels, but I can do it later, when someone needs it (besides, it's too much like the US plane, too).

[Marechallannes]

Nice plane card, Mike.

Took me 2 seconds to check, what "KMS" in front of a German Battleship name means.

[csadn]

Took me 2 seconds to check, what "KMS" in front of a German Battleship name means.

"Kriegsmarinen Schiff", IMSMC. (Not to be confused with the WW1 "SMS" -- "Seiner Majestat Schiff".)

[Kermit]

Corrected:
Vought F4U-1A: Maneuver: P; hits: 21; climb: 4; ceiling: 13; guns: B-B-B/B-A
Vought F4U-1D: Maneuver: P; hits: 21; climb: 4; ceiling: 13; guns: B-B-B/B-A
Vought F4U-4: Maneuver: P; hits: 21; climb: 2; ceiling: 14; guns: B-B-B/B-A
Vought F4U-4C: Maneuver: P; hits: 21; climb: 2; ceiling: 14; guns: C-C-C-C/C-C
Karl

I feel that the hits should only be 19. While I like the corsair, I don't feel it is overly sturdy like the Thunderbolt or Hellcat. Hmm, Carl's post http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?15476 is pretty good to follow for planes like this as well. I thought the F4U-1C had the same configuration as the F4U-4C.

[Tonx]

I'll second the fact that the Corsair actually served with the Royal Navy FAA in camouflage / standard roundels as per the Airfix 1/72 construction kit - I have this one built upstairs and it is a beaut. Also have the Corsair Mk IV in all over-blue with blue / white RN FAA roundels which although customised in a few locations c/o Pavla Models after market parts is originally the 1/72 Novo kit. Plus an original Airfix 1/72 rendition of the Corsair Mk IV but in New Zealand markings - spare from Novo kit just mentioned.

Cannot wait until Ares Games releases an official Miniature of the 'Bent Winged Bird' as I am a huge fan of the type: However 1/190th scale as the photos prove is about as near to 200-Size as we are going to get for the moment!

Can these models by New Ray be ordered from the UK / are these available to the UK please? Would not mind getting my sometimes grubby paws on one or two of these aircraft ...

[Jager]

I feel that the hits should only be 19. While I like the corsair, I don't feel it is overly sturdy like the Thunderbolt or Hellcat. Hmm, Carl's post http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?15476 is pretty good to follow for planes like this as well. I thought the F4U-1C had the same configuration as the F4U-4C.

Well we have the Mustang at 19 (I can make a good case for it to be at 18 and the Fw-190D at 19, but that's the way Ares made them ), and the Corsair is rather stronger than the Mustang.
By the math, the P-47 should be around 23 or 24, so your statement is correct. As for the Hellcat, FWs has both the Corsair and the Hellcat at the same hits, and so do I.
Karl

[OldGuy59]

For those looking for Corsair cards, I have redone these with the proper sized cards. Oops for not knowing the plane cards are the same, just the maneuver cards would be a different size.

OldGuy59's WWII US Navy Fighters Album
OldGuy59's WWII Allied Fighters - FAA Corsair

[DarrylH]

Actually, while the Corsair was definitely more difficult to fly than the Hellcat (it wasn't nicknamed 'the ensign eliminator' for nothing), it was at least as sturdy as the F6F, which is part of the reason why the Hellcat went to reserve squadrons almost as soon as the Second World War ended, while the F4U served with front line units in the Korean conflict.

[Gotham Resident]

I found a few New-Ray on ebay/amazon (same store) - I want to purchase one tonight, before I share the link. Cards look great Mike.

[Jager]

OK, updating this thread. Maneuver deck for the Corsair is the T deck. Wingloading and P/W ratio is closer to the P-47 than the P-51.

Karl

[OldGuy59]

OK, updating this thread. Maneuver deck for the Corsair is the T deck. Wingloading and P/W ratio is closer to the P-47 than the P-51.

Karl

Darn!

Actually, another word came to mind first, but I won't post that one.

[Jager]

Sorry, Mike. This is the hazards of new releases. More data. Think what it will be wherever WGS series 7 actually comes out.
Karl

[OldGuy59]

Sorry, Mike. This is the hazards of new releases. More data. Think what it will be wherever WGS series 7 actually comes out.
Karl

Karl,
The cards above are updated. They needed to be two-sided, anyway.

[Lord_Ninja]

OK, updating this thread. Maneuver deck for the Corsair is the T deck. Wingloading and P/W ratio is closer to the P-47 than the P-51.

Karl

What are the respective wing loadings now?

[Jager]

What are the respective wing loadings now?

In Pounds per Square Ft:
P-51: 39
P-47: 42.4
F4U-1D: 44.5
F4U-4: 46.7

[clipper1801]

In Pounds per Square Ft:
P-51: 39
P-47: 42.4
F4U-1D: 44.5
F4U-4: 46.7

Very nice Karl! I appreciate the insight this gives in just pondering the differences, I know its a side issue, but what were the HP differences?

[Jager]

p-51: 0.18 hp/lb
p-47: 0.12 to 0.13 hp/lb
F4U-1D: 0.15 to 0.16 hp/lb
F4U-4: 0.14 hp/lb

This gets a bit trickier, as both the P-47 and F4U-1D and F4U-4 had a number of different engines and mods to the engines, so there was a variety of horsepower values.
However, the P-51 was definitely sprightlier than the P-47, and the F4Us fell in between.
Karl

[clipper1801]

Thanks Karl. The P-51 is still my fave, while the Corsair was my dad. They had them on his carrier in Korea.

[FlyBoy Nate]

The cards look really good! I hope Ares comes out with them. It is my favorite plane. By the way, I think Armaments in Miniature has some unpainted ones.
http://www.angelfire.com/nj4/armamen...tos/r90130.gif