new and old maneuver decks
Has there been any major differences in the Wings of War maneuver decks when the planes have been released in Wings of Glory? I am just wondering if I buy some of the old Wings of War models, will their maneuver decks will be out dated when the models are released as WoG. Will Ares make the new maneuver decks available for separate purchase?
thanks,
Paul.
Old and new decks oc the same type are the same as far as the movement and manoeuvre are concerned. The design of the new cards is, IMHO, worse as the combination of colours, fonts and sizes makes them harder to read. The damage decks are even worse in this regard.
Ares will not make any decks available for separate purchase.
What he said!Originally Posted by David Manley
Mike
It's sad, but more than true...
Not just me then !
Paul, for playing the game the cards are fine but they will look quite different to the WoG style. If you don't mind that then engage wallet !
Paul, did you ask for WW I WGF or WW II WGS?
There is a lot of difference between the artwork and I have to say that the new WW II Wings of Glory movement cards are a real improvement.
Voilŕ le soleil d'Austerlitz!
Not just you Dave. With my failing eyesight, I have even placed cards in solo games and not rediscovered them until I came to pack up the game, as they blend in to the terrain so well.Not just me then !
Paul, for playing the game the cards are fine but they will look quite different to the WoG style. If you don't mind that then engage wallet !
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
That was my original thought as well. In addition the new cards seem a little thicker and much less pliable than the old decks.
New WWI maneuver cards are terrible. Not sure if it is all of them but many have the same artwork as on the mats. They blend right in and disappear, so Rob, you are not alone. One game I ran in April, fast.git was missing a card just played. Turned out it was the exact card as the terrain under it, placed so alignment with the mat was spot on. Totally invisible! I try to use the old cards as much as possible.
WW2.Paul, did you ask for WW I WGF or WW II WGS?
There is a lot of difference between the artwork and I have to say that the new WW II Wings of Glory movement cards are a real improvement.
So if I buy an old WoW Hurricane and Ares releases one in the future for WoG and also changes its movement deck (as they did for Spitfires etc.) The model will be useless as I will no longer own the correct maneuver deck. I am right?
This makes me think I should hold off buying any old planesand wait for the new releases. Any ideas?
It depends, the new Spitfire model is the Mk IX version which SHOULD be a lot faster than the old Mk I/II variant that was in the Nexus series one release.WW2.
So if I buy an old WoW Hurricane and Ares releases one in the future for WoG and also changes its movement deck (as they did for Spitfires etc.) The model will be useless as I will no longer own the correct maneuver deck. I am right?
This makes me think I should hold off buying any old planes
Once Ares get around to reprinting the older WWII models that version should still use the A deck unless they decide to go for a major revision of the rules, which seems unlikely.
The Hurricane should probably be ok as I don`t think there has been much criticism of its stats that I recall.
Last edited by Rabbit 3; 05-22-2014 at 06:02.
I could not, for the life of me, find the card... what are the chances of such a placement? Incredible!
I, too, try to use older cards when available. Additionally, I'm rather attached to my old Nexus mats, so that helps...
Yes, the Nexus mats don't have that problem with any version of the cards. Too bad I jumped the gun and quickly sold mine to get the new ones.
I'm making a new mat of my own now so that trouble will pass.
Yes it is a shame the old mats are no longer in production. If they had been sold with a mat for No man's land in the pack, and less obvious advertising, they would have been perfect for WWI. I like the new mats better for WWII, but not the cards.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
The only discussion of updating maneuver decks of re-released planes is the Spitfire Mk.I/II and the Zero might get a 60 degree turn added. No other changes have been discussed (that I've heard of), and those are not set in stone yet.WW2.
So if I buy an old WoW Hurricane and Ares releases one in the future for WoG and also changes its movement deck (as they did for Spitfires etc.) The model will be useless as I will no longer own the correct maneuver deck. I am right?
This makes me think I should hold off buying any old planes
Buy the Hurricanes with confidence.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
I wonder... assuming Ares updates the decks for the Spit & Zero, would they provide the new cards for those who have the older decks? If not... I fear I'd have a handful of obsolete decks.
Old good Nexus designs.Not to mention their far better damage cards design...
"We do not stop playing when we get old, but we get old when we stop playing."
+1
Thank you Sven I have to agree.Paul, did you ask for WW I WGF or WW II WGS?
There is a lot of difference between the artwork and I have to say that the new WW II Wings of Glory movement cards are a real improvement.
Thomas
Thanks guys. I asked on the WoG facebook page and they said there will be more WW2 single engine fighters release in Q4 this year, so I will buy a few of the older models now. I do not want to wait 6 months playing with the few planes I own now. I will of course purchase the new British and German planes when they are release to help support Ares and to add to my collection
Sorry to resurrect this old thread but I thought about this too but then I noticed that all the new decks use letters in the second half of the alphabet. This would fit in with the idea that the later world war 2 war planes would be faster than the older ones as mentioned above. I can't see Ares releasing the old planes again. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Not sure but I think someone has said that there might be another 4 planes in a boxed set being released at the end of the year which will be a starter set. That might incorporate the A - D cards.
Last I heard was something Battle Of Britain themed is likely, which would doubtless mean plenty of early releases returning - Spit, Hurri and 109 almost certainly.
Your memories serve you well... Keith was kind enough to inform us that the sky is, apparently, not falling... and the Battle of Britain Starters were up next for WGS... which I can't help but think would see a reprint of 109s and Spits.
A re-release of the Me109s and Spitfires should do ARES well. All of us WGS latecomers are in dire need of these planes and will purchase many. Those that already have some I'm sure will also get more as these are such classic planes.
It would be nice if the card art was improved..hello ARES...hello?
A rerelease and a BoB starter set would have done well now, 75th anniversary and all that. Ares seems to have a knack of missing natural advertising opportunities by a year or so
I agree David. This is the year they would get free promotional time and a vast increase in sale IMHO.
See you on the Dark Side......
Same happened with SGN and 1812. The game was released just in time to miss it, Constitution even moreso
Still, at least they consistently get new ranges out in time for the Christmas rush....
Makes you wonder about the decision-making process... who decides, and when the decisions get made. I understand it takes years to get things moving, and meeting deadlines is tough for a small company, but might it have made sense to switch the Giants KS for a Battle of Britain KS...?A rerelease and a BoB starter set would have done well now, 75th anniversary and all that. Ares seems to have a knack of missing natural advertising opportunities by a year or so
But I freely admit that I have no idea what they're doing behind the curtain.
Also depends on their interests. Perhaps ww2 isnt really their thing? And perhaps they feel that the market is still saturated With early war fightrs that they couldn't see many sell. But to fight the battle of britain properly you need loads of fighters and plenty of Ju 88s and He 111s. It could be that they don't understand the historical importance of the Battle of Britain. If the German cities hadn't been bombed then Hitler would not have switched to bombing London and the Battle of Britain would've been lost by Britain for sure. We just didnt have enough fighters.
Not really true; if you crunch the numbers, there really wasn't anyway that the Germans could have destroyed Fighter Command. And even more, gained control of the Channel to sealift enough troops to win SeaLowen. This doesn't diminish the bravery of the pilots involved.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
I read today that the Me 109s were limited in how long they could engage the British fighters. I never considered that they'd run out of fuel while the British planes couldnreturn to base to refuel and be up in the air shortly after. Stukas didnt have a chance against Hurricanes and Spitfires. Also, the majority of kills were made by Hurricanes. Hurricanes could also take more damage. As you say. It doesn't diminish the bravery of guys who were mostly about 20 years old! At 20 i was getting drunk in the student union at University! I should hail them for allowing me that freedom.
my understanding is that fighter command was basically hanging on by the skin of their teeth as it was and had germany continued targeting airfields and radar sights they wouldve effectively rendered the raf ineffective as a military force. now whether that wouldnt translated into a successful operation sea lion is another matter. in any case that the battle of britain played out as it did denied germany any chance of substantial victory against england.
I agree. Switching to bombing cities was a disaster for the Nazi Germany - resulting in loses in aircrews between 4 - 5 time as much as the RAF.
Even with air superiority it is unlikely sea lion would have succeeded. But I doubt if few leaders in Britain (with the exception of Churchill) would have being willing to find out the result of an invasion.
Counterfactuals are always debatable but my best estimate is that if the RAF was destroyed, with defeat after defeat, cities being bombed at will and seemingly no possibility of victory, Churchill's coalition would have collapsed and Lord Halifax would have been persuaded to form a new coalition to explore the possibility of negotiation with Hitler. Hitler is likely to have offered generous terms since he was well aware Germany was not strong in terms of naval power.
Winning the Battle of Britain was critical to Churchill and to Britain.
good analysis! interesting and informative.
Thanks
For an informative overview of Halifax the wiki article is good
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward...arl_of_Halifax
We tend to think of Churchill as respected and admired right from the start of the war but the reality was very much different. When he came to power his political position was weak compared to Halifax. Churchill became unassailable due to the success of the Battle of Britain and the Blitz spirit.
I have to agree with Karl - the decision to switch to bombing cities effectively killed any chance of a German victory in the B of B, but it wasn't that big a chance anyway. The way the two air forces were structured made it look worse than it was, as even at its nadir, the RAF still had depth and strategic reserves, while the Luftwaffe was far more "everything's in the shop window" - the British, oddly, were the ones better geared for sustaining a protracted campaign.
"Fighter command" looked in trouble at times, but was actually comprised of 5 groups, only two of which were extensively engaged, and only one of which was under sustained Luftwaffe attack. That group (Park's 11 Group) was the RAF's strongest, and was certainly in a very bad way at times, but it was by no means fighter command's last line of defence.
Last edited by Dom S; 08-23-2015 at 02:07.
The lack of drop tanks, limited use of radios (hold-over from Condor Legion practice), and Luftwaffe doctrine (which required that 109s remain with the bomber stream) limited the tactical flexibility of the fighter force. Additionally, whereas the Luftwaffe was designed as a tactical, battlefield air force, they struggled when operating as a "strategic" air force. Bombers which had proven successful in Spain and during the war's early years were found wanting (especially in terms of speed, defensive firepower, and bomb load) when facing modern fighter aircraft.
RAF C3 also deserves a nod... they better managed resources than did the Luftwaffe.
Spitfire on My Tail, by Ulrich Steinhilper & Peter Osborne, provides interesting insight into the Luftwaffe of 1936-1940. I'll write up a review later today.
There were more Hurricanes and, when the RAF got its way, and could dictate time and location of intercept, Hurricanes would focus on the bombers and Spitfires would engage the 109s. The Hurricane was a steadier gun platform, but the Spitfire was more of a match for the 109s.
There's a lot of consensus concerning this decision... but not so much in the details. The Luftwaffe's campaign certainly stressed the RAF... but to what extent is a matter of debate among historians. Regardless, switching targets gave the RAF much-needed breathing room and effectively lost the Battle of Britain.
Totally agree Chris. I had read about the dwell time and how stooging around over form up points in France waiting for Bombers cut down this dwell time over England. Spitfire on my Tail underlines this and also the lack of RT, which just exacerbated the situation.
The book is an excellent read.
Rob.
"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death."
Shame this is on this thead. It deserves a thread of its own.
Good point.
Let's try this: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/for...al-Discussions
Last edited by fast.git; 08-23-2015 at 09:45. Reason: Added Link
Thanks Christopher. And would you be able to copy over most of the discussion on the BoB to that new thread or different thread?
Last edited by Degordon; 08-23-2015 at 11:46.
One additional note: the British were producing fighters faster than they were losing them, wherein the Luftwaffe was doing the opposite. If Hitler had decided in the winter of 39-40 that an invasion on the UK was necessary, and had put Germany on a full war footing, he might have had the forces needed. Maybe.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
And this was a long maybe.
As I understand it, an invasion of England was not the goal... rather, Hitler wanted to force the British to throw in the towel so that he could focus his attentions to the east...
On the original subject of this thread. I'm not keen on the larger sized cards. They're great for 1:144 planes but for the 1:200 the older cards allow for the game to stay within a battle mat space without having to have a huge table. I managed to have a small battle with my boys yesterday on our dining room table using the Ares city mat and 2 pairs of spitfires mk II and two Me BF 109s E3.
Although table space can quickly become an issue with the "fast fighters" if you're not used to them, we've played 3 vs. 3 (either Spitfire Mk.IXs or P-51Ds against the FW 190-D9s) and had plenty of space on two standard size Ares mats. I found that the Mk.IX excels at knife-fighting range... so much so that they stayed most of the game on a single mat without being cramped.
I have not, however, mixed "fast fighters" with those flying standard size maneuvers.
Exactly right; he didn't even expect them to honor their commitments to Poland, and then figured they would bow out after the fall of France. Obviously didn't read the histories
As to what it would have taken for a successful SeaLowen, so much that it would have been obvious pre-war that that was at least a possibility. Both the Luftwaffe and the Wehrmacht treated the operation as an expanded river crossing. And the Kreigsmarine wasn't in a good position to help much, esp. after Norway.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
I have, and while the longer cards (i.e. faster speeds) of the "fast" fighters takes a bit to get used to, I have played them on a pair of Ares matts; you just use reversals a lot.
This was actually historical, and is one of the issues with WGS: not a good enough portrayal of the vertical dimension.
Karl
It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus
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