Measuring Range: base-to-base or stand-to-base?

[ColoradoCoppens]

Having only played a few games, I thought I'd run this by folks here and see what they think.

In the handful of solo sorties I've flown so far, the maximum range seems pretty short. I was wondering what more experienced players think of the idea of measuring range from the edge of one base to another, rather than from the central stand to another plane's base. It shouldn't affect firing arcs at all, but it slightly extends the range (and close range band), so that planes get to shoot just that teensy bit further.

Thoughts?

[Teaticket]

Welcome to the Drome Tom.

I think the firing range as is works fine. Extending it could get a few more shots per plane per game, maikng the game shorter. I have a hard enough time versus the solo system as is, I personally don't want the AI planes tossing more lead my way!
But if you want to then go for it. If that will make the game more enjoyable for you, why not?

[ColoradoCoppens]

Thanks for the input!

To be honest, I just don't know how it will work out, since I haven't tried it yet, and being such a rookie pilot myself it seemed prudent to check around. Perhaps I will give the extended range a spin soon, to see how things go. If it proves too deadly, then I'll reign it back in!

[Marechallannes]

Tom, that sounds like the way they do determine the range in X-Wing.

I think you'll get problems if you do so with some planes, especially the WW I bombers. That will increase the range of their gunners a lot.

...and I see complications with the "rear gun blind spot" optional rule.

[ColoradoCoppens]

Tom, that sounds like the way they do determine the range in X-Wing.

I have to admit, while I've only played X-Wing once, I do enjoy the Star Trek variant.

It did occur to me that to measure base-to-base would give the plane a longer range at the very limits of its firing arc (although only very slightly) than in the center, dead ahead of the plane, which doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

I think you'll get problems if you do so with some planes, especially the WW I bombers. That will increase the range of their gunners a lot.

...and I see complications with the "rear gun blind spot" optional rule.

I hadn't even considered these cases! I don't as yet own any two-seaters, so the thought hadn't crossed my mind, but it sounds like a pain to maintain a separate set of house rules for one-seaters and play by the normal rules for two-seaters.

I will also say that this was only a gut feeling based on a few games, but at the same time those games felt incredibly tense at times. So, I'll stick to the rules-as-written. Getting in good and close for a shot seems like a big part of the strategy, anyways!

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

We've tried both ways, base to base and stand to stand. Both have advantages and disadvantages dependent on what aircraft type your flying or flying against. It was easier and less complicated and less 'arguments' to stick to what is in the rule book and keeps the playing field level for everyone.

[Oberst Hajj]

As you get better at flying, you will find you get in range and arc more often.

[flash]

...the maximum range seems pretty short. I was wondering what more experienced players think of the idea of measuring range from the edge of one base to another, rather than from the central stand to another plane's base....Thoughts?

Some of us are still playing measuring from peg to peg Tom ! I find that it makes it tougher to get a shot on but a little easier to evade when the enemy piles on. I would think playing base to base you'd find it very hard to slip or evade enemy fire.
I'd suggest you'd be better off making a longer range stick and measuring peg to base with that. This has been discussed a number of times before with Andrea included. The current stick is 19.6 cm long, and was scaled down to fit the box, when asked what the original ranges were intended to be he suggested something from 20 up to 28cm long would be ok:

Really, I can not remember what I proposed. Maybe 2/4 cm more.
What I can do is to measure the original prototype for you. The "ruler" was actually a 28 cm string with a red sign at the half. The cards were about 88 mm long. Nexus reduced them to 65 mm. Keeping the same proportion, the ruler should have been 20,68 cm. I proposed to do it somehow longer, maybe 2 or 4 centimeters more as I was saying - maybe I even did a slightly longer one for later prototypes. In the end, since the inside of the box is 20 cmthe die cut ruler is about 19,6 cm to fit in it.

Attachment 61298

[Пилот]

At first we measured peg to base (I played few games peg to peg in various occasions), then switched peg to model, and finally switched back to peg to base, and that's where we are now.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I use peg to base, or dot to base for bombers fire.
Rob.

[grumpybear]

I use peg to base, or dot to base for bombers fire.
Rob.

We do the same

[gully_raker]

We do the same

As do we!

[jbmacek]

Peg to base for me.

When you measure, do you measure from the edge of the peg, or do you measure from a pretend dot at the center of the peg (as if you were measuring from the dot on a card)?

[fast.git]

I use peg to base, or dot to base for bombers fire.
Rob.

We do the same

As does my group.

[Bruce]

Our group here in Ottawa, Canada has been consistently happy with peg-to-base range measurement for the 5 years that we've been playing off and on.
We've played table-top games involving 10-15 aircraft (2 or 3 aircraft/player) on 4'x4' and 5'x5' boards, and also played six 10-player PBeM (Play By e-Mail) games using the 4'x4' board. The original range stick works well for us ... but it's easy to experiment if you think it might be more enjoyable.

[rcboater]

We all have our pet peeves in the game as designed-- that one thing we feel we need to fix with a house rule. Mine centers around the length of the firing stick. It bugs me (way more than it should) that with two planes at different altitudes, one can make a firing pass where you go from "too far apart" to "too close" in a single move, and never get a shot off. It is especially bad when two planes are making a head on pass at each other-- both want to shoot, and neither one gets to.

I think making the range stick a little bit longer may be the solution.....

[ColoradoCoppens]

Having played a few more games, I think it felt short to me in 1v1 dogfights, but once I added a second, third, etc. plane to one or both sides shots were coming up all the time. I think I'll stick to the rules as written for now, although I can see extending it in 1v1 dogfights.

[Пилот]

Had you consider making longer ruler, just for 1on1 games? You'll have the same effect, but it'll be easier to decide arc of fire?

[SHVAK]

We use a version of the older "Shoot at the Real Thing" rule, albeit simpler to use with miniatures. Measure from centre post on firing plane to 1/2 way up the base on the target plane - ie. the ruler must reach at least half-way from target's base to its centre post (in a straight line distance).

[Thunderbolt]

Having played a few more games, I think it felt short to me in 1v1 dogfights, but once I added a second, third, etc. plane to one or both sides shots were coming up all the time. I think I'll stick to the rules as written for now, although I can see extending it in 1v1 dogfights.

That's why we use peg to base rule exactly. Once you have a battle with more than 1 plane per side the air becomes dense with bullets...

[Eris Lobo]

We use peg-to-peg pretty religiously in our games, but it can get problematic sometimes, because making a fraction of an inch of a mistake in laying down a card can sometimes make a big difference in whether one plane can target another plane.

But with that in mind, here goes ... a complete summary of all the rule interpretations we use in our games regarding peg-to-peg weapons fire. Comments are, of course, quite welcome.

Background: Wings of Glory is a game about air combat, and air combat is about maneuvering and shooting. The aircraft miniatures in Wings of Glory are commonly known to be in 1/144th scale, When the maneuver cards are measured and compared to historical records, however, it becomes quickly clear that their scale is about a tenth of that, being approximately around 1/1500th scale (more or less -- the point is that the actual scale of the game is much smaller than the scale of the miniatures). With that in mind, it is important to realize that although the cards and miniatures are attractive representations of the aircraft in play, their scale is far from accurate. A much more precise representation for the size of the aircraft in relations to the actual game scale would be to use the center peg of the miniature base.

Using the center peg results in the following rule changes:

* Weapon shots are measured peg to peg, not base to base.

* Weapon arcs of fire as printed on aircraft bases and cards are used as per normal rules.

* Aircraft bases and cards can overlap without the aircraft colliding. A potential collision occurs only if the center peg of one aircraft overlaps the center peg of another aircraft.

* Aircraft can shoot at each other even if their bases overlap, as long as the center peg of the target aircraft is in the arc of fire of the attacking aircraft, and the center peg of the attacking aircraft does not overlap the center peg of the target aircraft.

* Bases are used as per normal rules to determine if an aircraft is being tailed.

* Archie (anti-aircraft) attacks use an aircraft's base to determine if an aircraft is hit as per normal rules (because of shrapnel, a direct hit is not required for an anti-aircraft attack to be effective).

* When dealing with observation balloons (drachens), the center peg represents the balloon itself for targeting purposes and collisions. Defending archies cannot fire shells which pass within half the length of a targeting ruler of the balloon's center peg at any level (even passing above or below the balloon). An aircraft takes damage from an exploding drachen if the center peg of the aircraft is within half the length of a targeting ruler from the exploding balloon's center peg and at the same level as the balloon, or the aircraft is a level above or below the balloon and its center peg overlaps the balloon's center peg.

* (Optional) Multiple aircraft of the same type flying in formation can be represented by small markers placed on one aircraft base representing the leader of the formation. The aircraft are assumed to be at the same level, same speed and facing the same direction. If combat occurs, they each fire independently at targets, and are independently attacked. While a formation remains together, the leader can only fly non-steep straights, broad curves, climbs and dives. If an aircraft wishes to leave the formation, movement cards for it are immediately plotted for the turn's remaining phases, and the aircraft's miniature is put into play as soon as these cards are played.

(FYI, we use all of the above rules frequently except for the one regarding formation flying, which is still in the experimental stage.)

What do you think? Have I missed any ways that peg-to-peg rules can effect game play?

Tally ho!

-- Eris

[steel_ratt]

Once again, Eris, I find that we are very much in synch with our thinking. I haven't switched over entirely to peg-to-peg -- I still do introductory games and games for novices with rules-as-written -- but your rules (with the exception of formation flying) are _exactly_ what I use, and for the same reasons. I like the formation rule as well. I may adopt that one, too.

One addition that I have made to account for the scale difference is to reduce the size of balloon bases to the size of a standard airplane base. I can't stand balloons that are hundreds of meters long and that allow you to fly along-side for 10 seconds. (I simply cannot imagine using a 1/144 scale zeppelin... it would be MILES long.)

[Пилот]

Peg to base for me.

When you measure, do you measure from the edge of the peg, or do you measure from a pretend dot at the center of the peg (as if you were measuring from the dot on a card)?

Edge of a peg, as opposite would mean to take pegs out every time there's shooting.