Special Damage and crazy bad odds

[Gord]

One of the things I really dislike about "Special Damage" is that in WoW (as in all systemss using an ever shrinking number of cards) is that Special damage becomes inevitable. This is not statistically accurate (and the main reason we have taken the explosion card out).
A damaged rudder or motor or dead observer are not inevitabilities. Obviously these things could and did happen but what were the odds?
A Deck odds are:
Damaged rudder = 1 in 8.75 chance
Gun Jams = 1 in 8.75
Dead observer = 1 in 17.5
Damaged Motor = 1 in 35
Smoke or fire = 1 in 35
Explosion = 1 in 35
Very Poor and very unlikely odds I think. In fact the odds of catastrophic damage in WoW is far worse than the odds of a real pilot surviving "Blood April" in 1917.
Start taking cards out of the mix (representing damage cards held in players hands) and the odds become much worse, and continue to worsen with each subsequent round.
I am working on a few ideas on how to mitigate the inevitability factor. Does this bug anybody else?
The other point in Special damage that I think needs addressing is that in actual combat a damaged motor or engine would most likely be un-repairable and generally as good as a kill.
My thinking is that damage of this nature would force the player to attempt to leave the fight; thus giving a victory to the shooter but staying alive. "He who fights and runs away ..." so to speak.
So a player with a damaged motor or rudder must - at the end of every series of maneuvers be closer to a map edge and escape.
This would not prevent the player from shooting at targets of opportunity, but the damaged player must make every reasonable effort to escape.

Whatchya think?

Gord

[Dathbain]

I'll agree that the ever increasing chance of special damage is a little aggrevating, but leaving the table? Hmm... I see your reasoning, but I like to imagine that the "special Damage" on the rudder and the smoke and fire is superficial enough to allow the plane to continue to fly. I do agree with the engine damage though.

Dave

[Gord]

I'll agree that the ever increasing chance of special damage is a little aggrevating, but leaving the table? Hmm... I see your reasoning, but I like to imagine that the "special Damage" on the rudder and the smoke and fire is superficial enough to allow the plane to continue to fly. I do agree with the engine damage though.

Dave

Hi Dave,
Yeah I know, leaving the fight doesn't seem like fun, but probably a likely "real world" outcome. I tend to think in "campaign" terms and wanting to keep my "pilot" alive.
Maybe a dice roll to see if the rudder clears at the end of each turn sequence.
As for smoke; should it turn to fire? Again, would a randomizer (dice) decide whether the smoking stops or turns to fire? Speaking of fire, having to take damage cards (or cards AND points) is serious enough but why should fires automatically after 3 turns?
Thanks for the feedback.
Gord

[IRM]

I don't have any particular problem with using the card deck for damage myself. For one thing, WoW is a game, not a simulation or hardcore wargame. For another, as the game goes on and planes take more and more damage, I'd think it more likely that the effects covered by the special damage cards would occur anyway (leaking fuel, damaged struts etc). If you don't like the card system, there's a percentage dice based table in the "Files" section you could use or modify instead.

I don't think it's a good idea to force players to disengage with certain damage results, they should always have a choice (although I use morale rules for NPC aircraft).

I don't treat the first engine or rudder damage card any differently than the standard rules (I take them to be relatively minor damage), but I've house ruled that a second rudder card causes a loss in manoeuverability. Two rudder cards using those rules or an engine card using standard rules will have most players (in campaigns, at any rate) seriously considering heading for home, no need to add rules to force them to.

Regarding fires, I'm fine with the rules as is (again, it's a game) but I'm looking at house ruling that a plane on fire can't shoot (crew's a bit distracted ) and that the fire continues until a zero damage card is drawn when checking for fire damage at the start of the turn (mostly the same as the existing rules for putting out fires for aircraft on the ground). Effectively, the crew either put out the fire, or the plane burns up, or the crew bail out (with or without a 'chute !). Still got to test that a bit more.

I don't see the need for smoke damage to have a chance of becoming fire. I just take it that if a smoking aircraft takes a subsequent fire or explosion card while smoking (or takes max damage), it's due to bullets igniting the leaking fuel or whatever. Otherwise, the smoke stops.

[Akosion]

Gord,
They're some interesting ideas for sure.
The one thing that seems a bit overenthusiastic is

The other point in Special damage that I think needs addressing is that in actual combat a damaged motor or engine would most likely be un-repairable and generally as good as a kill.
....
So a player with a damaged motor or rudder must - at the end of every series of maneuvers be closer to a map edge and escape.

That seems to be based on a very "total" definition of motor and rudder damage. I remember reading about an American DH4 observer who shot off one of his rudder cables and thought that the plane would be uncontrollable, but his pilot just figured out how to compensate and they flew the rest of the mission with no problem. So maybe for that crew the three turns of rudder damage means the pilot gingerly testing how it'll respond. The system as it stands is "soft" enough to cover these kinds of temporary events.

Now if you have some statistics on plane damage and how it built up over a fight, and it backs up your modifications, I'd love to see them- my knowledge of WWI aviation doesn't go that deep, and it's always nice to learn something new.

There's an additional game mechanics issue with "closer to the map edge"...what happens if the fight is taking place close to the edge of the map? In that case, the pilot would try to get closer to the map center, away from the edge.

best regards
Aris K.

[Gord]

Hi Aris and thanks for the feedback,
Like I said these are just ideas we are "playing" with. It does seem that nobody likes the idea of having to leave a combat (fun) just because of a little damage.
Maybe this is an idea better suited to campaign play when one is trying to maintain a record of victories to become an Ace or get better aircraft. I tend to think along those lines anyway as I really like racking up a score!

Besides, I think trying to escape alive with a damaged a/c could be it's own kind of victory and almost as tension filled as staying in the fight. But you are probably right about flying to an edge to escape, that's a bit too gamey.
Maybe an escape has to be back to your own start line? The idea is to "escape" the playing area.
Unfortunately, I had to sell my rather extensive aviation library to open my store; otherwise I could probably give you a few pertinent stats.
But you are right, a lot of damage is manageable and I think that is why I would add a randomizer (dice). Thus the damage either goes away (becomes manageable) or in some cases persists to the point of destruction. For instance; a D20 could be rolled and if the die roll is greater than the printed fuselage strength of your aircraft you fail the roll and the damage persists or can in some cases become permanent. Also, why should a jam automatically last 3 turns? Roll successfully and clear the jam, fail catastrophically and the your guns fall off ;-P

I think using dice as a randomizer could work quite well in the case of smoke possibly leading to a fire to a possible kablooie (adding some urgency to the need for escape). Maybe a damaged motor could start to smoke and ultimately catch fire if the player keeps "failing" a dice roll? Not an unlikely sequence of events. At any rate, I feel that damage magically disappearing after a regulated 3 turns is a bit unsatisfying.
What I like about the fire rules as written is that damage cards are added at each turn. What I don't like is that fire magically disappears after 3 turns.

Anyway, just ideas, perhaps it is a bad habit of mine to want to tinker with rules, but after 40+ plus years of gaming I just cannot help myself.

Gord

Gord,
They're some interesting ideas for sure.
The one thing that seems a bit overenthusiastic is

That seems to be based on a very "total" definition of motor and rudder damage. I remember reading about an American DH4 observer who shot off one of his rudder cables and thought that the plane would be uncontrollable, but his pilot just figured out how to compensate and they flew the rest of the mission with no problem. So maybe for that crew the three turns of rudder damage means the pilot gingerly testing how it'll respond. The system as it stands is "soft" enough to cover these kinds of temporary events.

Now if you have some statistics on plane damage and how it built up over a fight, and it backs up your modifications, I'd love to see them- my knowledge of WWI aviation doesn't go that deep, and it's always nice to learn something new.

There's an additional game mechanics issue with "closer to the map edge"...what happens if the fight is taking place close to the edge of the map? In that case, the pilot would try to get closer to the map center, away from the edge.

best regards
Aris K.

[Charlie3]

Just a note about Smoke and Fire...Our group has been playing with house rules for a year now that they last for the rest of the game. Well almost.

In our games, Fire once it starts contiunues for the rest of the game, or until you no longer have a plane. You must draw a damage card at the begining of each game turn and add it to your stack, just like the origninal rules. Few planes last more than 2 or 3 Game Turns after drawing fire.

However if you draw a Smoke card the fire will change to smoke instead, this always makes a pilot happy! When your plane is smoking, you have some form of engine damage, and are waiting for the other shoe to drop. Therefore while smoking you must draw a damage card at the begining of each game turn. If the card does not have the Engine Damage, Fire or Explosion special damage on it, the card has no effect on your aircraft (no Structural damage done) The card is shown to the other players and returned to the deck. If the card has those Special damages listed, they take effect and the card is added to your stack.

This simple pair of rules has made for some interesting flights!

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Just a note about Smoke and Fire...Our group has been playing with house rules for a year now that they last for the rest of the game. Well almost.

In our games, Fire once it starts contiunues for the rest of the game, or until you no longer have a plane. You must draw a damage card at the begining of each game turn and add it to your stack, just like the origninal rules. Few planes last more than 2 or 3 Game Turns after drawing fire.

However if you draw a Smoke card the fire will change to smoke instead, this always makes a pilot happy! When your plane is smoking, you have some form of engine damage, and are waiting for the other shoe to drop. Therefore while smoking you must draw a damage card at the begining of each game turn. If the card does not have the Engine Damage, Fire or Explosion special damage on it, the card has no effect on your aircraft (no Structural damage done) The card is shown to the other players and returned to the deck. If the card has those Special damages listed, they take effect and the card is added to your stack.

This simple pair of rules has made for some interesting flights!

I like this. It is not quite so inevitable as some of the others. It is easy to fall into the trap of saying there is an example of so and so putting his plane into a dive and putting the fire out or, he made it back with no controls but his observer standing on the wing to balance out the tendency to fall off to the left etc. However, these are remarked upon in reports just because they are unusual, not because they were a regular thing. I think that a slight chance of recovering a catastrophe is good but should be very rare indeed.
The ability to land a plane, or go onto the gravity feed when hit in the engine, is far more well documented, and should give a pilot the chance to walk away from the plane, albeit behind the lines or in nomansland , with at least a chance of getting back.
Rob.

[Charlie3]

I like this... I think that a slight chance of recovering a catastrophe is good but should be very rare indeed.
The ability to land a plane, or go onto the gravity feed when hit in the engine, is far more well documented, and should give a pilot the chance to walk away from the plane, albeit behind the lines or in nomansland , with at least a chance of getting back.
Rob.

I agree. Unfortunatly Gamers being Gamers some of our players tend to try to fly one too many turns after the flames start and end up crashing. We do use a die roll for pilots whose planes go down because of damage points (1-3 pilot dies,4-6 pilot survives to fly again!) because we keep track of pilots. All in all we have a good laugh about the AIRSHOW pilots flying around with plumes trailing, and just keep flying

[Flying Officer Kyte]

All in all we have a good laugh about the AIRSHOW pilots flying around with plumes trailing, and just keep flying[/QUOTE]

Very amusing. I had not thought of it that way, but now you mention it we all meet that kind of gamer from time to time and the Col's smoke and flame markers make the visualization all the more funny.
Rob..

[rcboater]

I have a lot of miniatures (21) and only two boxed sets, so I made my own damage decks. Printed them on card stock-- red for A decks, and yellow for B decks. I made several copies-- we typically play with at least 4 decks worth of cards.
I added about a dozen each of ones and twos to the deck-- to reduce the odds of some of the special cards, while also increasing the chance of a hit.