What kind of damage token(s) represent the damage of the Bf.110 "Schräge Musik"?
2 × 20-mm-MG FF/M
Schräge Musik
What kind of damage token(s) represent the damage of the Bf.110 "Schräge Musik"?
2 × 20-mm-MG FF/M
In the rulebook of the RAP stands a D-token.Originally Posted by Marechallannes
If you do the special attack and overlap with the enemy airplane you deal out two damage tokens.The schrage musik may replace one of the airplane's machine guns, as indicated by the scenario or by the airplane's special rules. For example, the Bf.110 rear machine guns can be replaced by a D-firing front or rear Schrage Musik, while a Ki-45 may have an A-firing or C-firing Schrage Musik, in addition to its front machine guns.
When an airplane with a Schrage Musik installed overlaps another flying airplane, it can do a special Schrage Musik attack against it, dealing two damage counters with the same letter as the Schrage Musik couter: two A-damage counters, two D-damage counters or two D-damage counters.
Glad I don't like Punk-Wagner then.
Shame on me I posted the question before looking into the new rule book.
So a "Schräge Musik" attack of a Bf. 110 is always two D-damage tokens, (but you can only attack) if you overlapping the target's base.
Nasty suprise for the upcoming Lancaster bombers.
No problem Sven. Glad I could help
Has anyone actually used these rules?? How do they play?
Shame on me I posted the question before looking into the new rule book.
So a "Schräge Musik" attack of a Bf. 110 is always two D-damage tokens, (but you can only attack) if you overlapping the target's base.
Nasty suprise for the upcoming Lancaster bombers.
No, I bought two night fighter versions of the Bf.110 an have to wait for the Lancaster models.
I'm not shure If I should buy the night fighter version of the Beaufighter.
A dogfight at night of Bf.110 vs. Beau seems not that realistic.
For me a night fight with the Lancaster would seem strange to. The person flying the Lancaster would have to ignore the Bf110 that is creeping up below him while he can clearly see him and thus in a normal situtation try to evade it...No, I bought two night fighter versions of the Bf.110 an have to wait for the Lancaster models.
I'm not shure If I should buy the night fighter version of the Beaufighter.
A dogfight at night of Bf.110 vs. Beau seems not that realistic.
For me a night fight with the Lancaster would seem strange to. The person flying the Lancaster would have to ignore the Bf110 that is creeping up below him while he can clearly see him and thus in a normal situtation try to evade it...No, I bought two night fighter versions of the Bf.110 an have to wait for the Lancaster models.
I'm not shure If I should buy the night fighter version of the Beaufighter.
A dogfight at night of Bf.110 vs. Beau seems not that realistic.
Odd that they have the Bf-110 as D damage for 2x20mm; it should be C-C/C. Were any equipped with 30mm?
Karl
Frankly, as Thomas wrote, I can not imagine a tabletop set up of a historically accurate nightfight in WGS. Hmmm... Lancaters in a stream, flying a straight course, then the hunters... A straight flying, no maneuvering... Just a one chance shot, lost contact with the bomber...
I've done this using a "double blind" setup. Each player has their aircraft in the centre of a small table, with only what they can see on the table with them. The umpire has a full table with everything. the players tables are either facing away from the main table or in other rooms. the players tell the umpire what they will do each turn and he adjudicates. VERY tense games indeed!Frankly, as Thomas wrote, I can not imagine a tabletop set up of a historically accurate nightfight in WGS. Hmmm... Lancaters in a stream, flying a straight course, then the hunters... A straight flying, no maneuvering... Just a one chance shot, lost contact with the bomber...
But yes, doing it as a traditional tabletop game, very tricky. nigh on impossible.
We've used the double blind approach for some naval games too - The Barents Sea, Guadalcanal battles and the Taffy 3 actions in particular. Works great for those to
Last edited by David Manley; 08-29-2013 at 14:00.
@David: Umpire seems to be a good solution, also employed in L.B.'s "Nightfighter" the boardgame, with excellent solo variant.
I've seen that board game a few times, but managed to resist the temptation so far. I assume its a good one to try?
Sounds like a very interesting concept. How did the attackers where aknowledged of the discovery of the bomber? Is it the umpire who tells them? The nightfighters had radar so they should be able to see some kind of dot on their table maybe? This way the know the location but then have to wait a few turns to determine direction and speed...
And how would you solve the inaccuracy of moving the base? Misplacing the base a few mm every turn can give a big difference between the tables after a while...
Something we should try in Prague next year!Sven has the fighters to match and with a bit of luck the Lancasters will be available...
I'd say top-turrets like on some P-61s should be counted as giving a Shrage Musik bonus, but still having turret flexibility--unless I'm mistaken, as I might be, and the Black Widow doctrine was "slash and dash with cannons, use top turret mainly as defensive battery"...
Definitely. It's still shelved in my gaming room, but I'm digging through the rules. Hope to succeed better than with BoB of the same designer
Why?
The German Nachtjagd fought versus British bombers.
Imagine moonshine, low clouds, etc...
I can imagine many situations and the do not have to last that long, just the time a few Lancasters need to cross the gaming aera.
I think it's time for us to study the combat reports.
I'll buy some literature.
Indeed historically it isn't strange and for solo missions it might be fun. But if it is a game with two opponents it would feel strange. If I was flying the Lancaster I would fly every evasive maneuver I had available. Quickly loose altitude so the nightfighter has no chance of flying lower and place its devastating shot. Loosing altitude would also give my turrets a chance. And that is the strange part for me. You'll see the nightfighter... And with night fighting you shouldn't.Why?
The German Nachtjagd fought versus British bombers.
Imagine moonshine, low clouds, etc...
I can imagine many situations and the do not have to last that long, just the time a few Lancasters need to cross the gaming aera.
I think it's time for us to study the combat reports.
I remember that in other topics here, there already was told that Lancasters often didn't realise what happend even after their wing was torn off by Schrage Musik. The Me110 pilots where very skillfull in creeping up on the bombers whitout beeing noticed and then release on short burst on the wing or engine. With the current set of rules I just don't see how that would work. Unless you play on separate tables and give the Me110 the advantage of giving it the rough position of the Lancasters and once it interceps giving it more info.
I bought the book:
Duell unter den Sternen. Tatsachenbericht eines deutschen Nachtjägers 1941-1945
I'll report.
Definitely do so!! I'm curious.I bought the book:
Duell unter den Sternen. Tatsachenbericht eines deutschen Nachtjägers 1941-1945
I'll report.
This book was written in 1955. 10 years aftre the war.
The pilot used the Bf.110 the most time, so I decided to buy it. (Other readers gave the book best ratings, too)
I don't know if he used "Schräge Musik" - we'll see.
Here is a short overview:
Hauptmann Wilhelm Johnen, am 9. Oktober 1921 in Homberg am Niederrhein geboren, kam als junger Leutnant im Mai 1941 zur deutschen Nachtjagd. Eingebettet in die Geschichte der deutschen Nachtjagd und ihrer berühmten Piloten beschreibt er hier seinen militärischen Werdegang von seiner Ausbildung im Blindflug zu seinen ersten Nachtjagdeinsätzen beim Nachtjagdgeschwader 1 in Venlo und Schleswig. Nach seinem ersten Nachtjagdabschuss selbst vom Bordschützen eines viermotorigen Bombers erfasst und abgeschossen, kehrte er nach längerem Lazarettaufenthalt zu seinem Geschwader nach Venlo zurück. Im Dezember 1942 mit der dritten Staffel des Nachtjagdgeschwaders 1 zur III. Gruppe des Nachtjagdgeschwaders 6 versetzt, nahm er von Venlo startend an den Abwehrkämpfen über Hamburg teil und wurde in dieser Zeit zum ersten Mal mit der neuen Staniolstreifen-Taktik der Royal Air Force konfrontiert. Beim ersten Nachtjagdeinsatz seiner Gruppe über Berlin konnten in der Nacht vom 23. auf den 24. August 1943 allein 20 Abschüsse erzielt werden. Über Berlin erzielte Johnen auch seinen größten Erfolg, als es ihm gelang innerhalb von nur 45 Minuten vier feindliche Bomber abzuschießen. Nach verschiedenen Verlegungen seiner Gruppe machte er in Leipheim bei einem Testflug mit der Me 262 erste Erfahrungen mit diesem Düsenjäger. Am 28. April 1944 wurde er mit seiner Me Bf 110 in der Schweiz zur Notlandung gezwungen, ihm gelang jedoch die Rückkehr nach Deutschland. Nach ihre Verlegung nach Ungarn im Juni 1944 hatte die Gruppe die Aufgabe, Wien und Budapest vor Angriffen von Bomberstaffeln der RAF aus Italien zu beschützen und Partisanenflugzeuge abzuwehren. Nach 33 Nachtjagdabschüssen am 31. Oktober 1944 als Oberleutnant mit dem Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes ausgezeichnet, erlebte er den Angriff auf Würzburg am 16. März 1945 aus der Luft und konnte als Gruppenkommandeur der III./Nachtjagdgeschwader 6 hier seinen 34. und letzten Nachtjagdabschuss erzielen. Das Kriegsende erlebte Wilhelm Johnen in Bad Aibling, wo er und seine Kameraden am 30. April 1945 ihre Maschinen sprengten.
Google translator:
Captain Wilhelm Johnen , born on 9 October 1921 in Homberg on the Lower Rhine , came as a young lieutenant in May 1941 to German night fighter . Embedded in the history of the German night fighter pilots and their famous he is describing his military career from his training flying blind to his first night fighter missions during night-fighter squadron 1 in Venlo and Schleswig . After his first night hunting aerila victory he was wounded himself from gunner of a four -engined bomber and shot down. He returned after a long hospital stay to his squadron back to Venlo . In December 1942, the third season of NJG 1 to III . Group of NJG 6 is set , he took from Venlo starting at the defensive battles over Hamburg and partly faced in this period for the first time with the new Staniolstreifen tactics of the Royal Air Force . On the first night fighter sortie over Berlin, his group scored on the night of 23 on the 24th August 1943 alone 20 Kills. Over Berlin Johnen also achieved his greatest success when he managed to shoot down 4 enemy bombers within 45 minutes. After several relocations his group he made in Leipheim during a test flight in the Me- 262 jet fighter first experience with this . On 28 April 1944 he was forced by his Me Bf 110 emergency landing in Switzerland , but he managed to return to Germany . After their relocation to Hungary in June 1944, the Group had the task to protect , Vienna and Budapest from attacks by bombers of the RAF from Italy and fight guerrilla aircraft. After 33 night fighter kills he get in October 1944 as a first lieutenant the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross , he witnessed the attack on Würzburg 16 March 1945 from the air and scored as a group commander of III . / Jagdgeschwader 6 here his 34th kill . The end of the war saw Wilhelm Johnen in Bad Aibling, where he and his comrades on 30 April 1945 blew up their machines .
Nice overview. Did you find out if he used schrage musik?
I have to read it first.
Speaking of L-B's game, there is some excellent background material on Radar Interception here:
http://www.gmtgames.com/p-233-nightfighter.aspx
Loads of info there just had a quick peruse.
Well my view on the subject is this: Untill ARES releases some playable night fighting rules, all night fighting models waist of time and could of been put to some other usage, the same with the Lancaster fine if you are a collector but useless if your a gamer. My point is untill there is an official set of rules what's the point of producing the models?
Probably because they want heavy bombers out for WW2, and didn't want 2 USA ones (B-17 and B-24).
There are a lot of people that play this game in a less serious way than some of us, so they'll cheerfully throw Bomber Command crews out in stark raving daylight (against, yes you guessed it...Doras!)
Sales, sales, sales.
Karl
Exactly my point of view
Another excellent book I read about the defenders is D.P.Williams' "Night Fighters" - you can see it in Polish edition below. Lots of photos, fascinating.I bought the book:
Duell unter den Sternen. Tatsachenbericht eines deutschen Nachtjägers 1941-1945
I'll report.
Looks interesting, wingman.
Time for my book to arrive.Need to close the gap of my "nightfighter knowledge".
Doug, Andrzej - you're both right.
When I remember correctly, Ares Games (first) answer to the quetsion for this night fighter versions was: "That are simply black painted planes."
Now we have rules for "Schräge Musik" in the new WWII Rules & Accesoire Pack, but no rules for night fight.
Lancaster is coming...
First I was irratated about such action.
On the other hand Are Games opens new ways for WW II gaming and follows his old uncommon publishing ways besides some mainstream products and inspire the gamer's fantasy.
I'm not shure if we'll see a "fullblooded" WW II torpedo bomber like the Kate or the Swordfish in the next two series.(without torpedo bombing rules)
But to be honest. He111 bombers were equipped with torpedos.
Last edited by Marechallannes; 09-07-2013 at 21:45.
My 1/144th scale HE111 has two torpedo's underneath.
Its funny that the Germans are credited for inventing something that the British had in fact known about since WWI.
They finally abandoned this sort of attack earlier in the war because they felt that aircraft were just too fast by that point for the technique to work (the Germans proving them wrong).
They were still working on it in the early `30`s though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_Type_161
Last edited by Rabbit 3; 09-05-2013 at 12:12.
"Credited" is maybe the wrong word.
German Wiki mentions British experiments in WW I.
Erste Experimente soll es von den Engländern schon im Ersten Weltkrieg gegeben haben. Darüber ist aber wenig bekannt geworden.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%A4ge_Musik
Decisive for such an "invention" was the fact that German nightfighters reported that the could fly under British bombers without being detected.
There was a kind of attack from that position by going up and shoot at the bomber, but leaves a risk to be shoot by the rear gunner position.
"Schräge Musik" was the perfect possibility to shoot at the unsuspecting straight Bomber.
About one third of all German nightfighters were equipped with "Schräge Musik" armament.
I think the Japanese used these kind of weapons too, but I have no information about this.
Last edited by Marechallannes; 09-07-2013 at 10:18.
Gun arrangements such as this were fairly common in British Home Defence aircraft tasked with engaging Zeppelin from blind spots below the ship. Examples included the BE.2, Camel, 1 1/2 Strutter (one of my first Shapeways models is an aircraft in just this configuration) and the Dolphin, so it would probably be fair to say that the concept could be credited to someone well before WW2 since it had been around for over 20 years before Schoenert came up with his arrangements. IIRC gthere were also US and French arrangements that were similar, and a German experimental installation on an Albatros, and further concepts and arrangements that were worked on during the interwar years. But it would be entirely far to say that the Luftwaffe developed the system to the pinnacle of effectiveness
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks