Paragon's Aerial Dogfight Rules - production of planes numbers

[celticgriffon]

In my never ending quest for a campaign system which offers tactical and strategic play I have been absorbing Air Combat game rules at a relatively frantic pace.

In Paragon's Aerial Dogfight Rules by Hugh Walters (circa 1977) their is a list of an approximate number of manufactured craft for almost every plane type starting first quarter 1916.

On the Central Powers side it lists the following top five planes (in terms of number built):

1) Albatros DIII (2600) / scout
2) Albatros DVa (2000) / scout
3) Fokker DVII (1700) / scout
4) Hannover CIIIa (1056) / 2 seater
5) Albatros DII (800) / scout
* no results are provided for the Halberstadt CII but as it was in production almost as long as the Albatros DVa I would suspect quite a few may have been made.

On the Entente side we find:

1) Spad XIII (8472) / scout
2) RE8 (8407) / 2 seater
3) Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter (British 1520 and French/Belgium 4500) (6020) / 1st a fighter and then a 2 seater
4) Sopwith Camel (5490) / scout
5) SE5a (5205) / scout
* No totals were provided for Nieuport 11 and 17 models (just says many)

Given these numbers, I found a few things curious:

1) when will we see the Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter with an official release?
2) Only one 2 seater made the top five built for Germany as opposed to two models for the Entente
3) It is an amazing difference to me if we compare the raw numbers - CP's 8156 vs Ent 33594..

I just thought these tidbits might generate some very interesting discussion.

Michael

[csadn]

1) when will we see the Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter with an official release?

You have hit on one of my major annoyances with this game -- why does Nexus|Ares insist on shoveling out the *worst* of Britain's aviation industry, instead of giving the Entente some two-seaters which *aren't* target-practice for the Germans; while at the same time forcing the Entente to deal with the Roland?

Give me a Sopwith 1A2 or 1B2 (French-built 1&1/2-Strutters) escorted by some Hanriot HD.1s, and players will stop asking how the West won the War when German acft. were going-away superior. >:|

3) It is an amazing difference to me if we compare the raw numbers - CP's 8156 vs Ent 33594..

Pretty-much -- the Germans particularly, and the CP in general, could not match Western production figures; not in WW1, not in WW2, not ever. This made up for the hopeless ineptitude of the West's military leadership, and also helps explain why the Germans always run up higher scores than the West (more targets) -- not to mention why we get TV shows like _Blackadder Goes Forth_. :P

[Naharaht]

The D.H.4's were good planes.

[john snelling]

I like the Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter alot. May in the next round of 2 seat recon aircraft if they ever go that route again.
The majority of the single seaters produced were the bomber version. The single seat fighter were mostly conveted 2 seaters and used for home defence. The French built ones were suppose to be a short term fix until the superior French 2 seater could be built but delays in production forced the French 1 1/2 Strutter to carry on in face of superior German aircraft opposing it.

What source did you use for the 800 number built for the Albatros D.II? I have 291 German built and 16 for A-H for a total of 307.
The Pfalz D.III/IIIa 1010 built should be on the list.

Sorry for nitpicking. It was a thought provoking post.

[celticgriffon]

Hey John,

The numbers I captured were directly from the ruleset. I am not sure, however, what sources the author of the ruleset cited for his research.

Michael

[john snelling]

Hey John,

The numbers I captured were directly from the ruleset. I am not sure, however, what sources the author of the ruleset cited for his research.

Michael

Number are very subjective. I just noticed that one to be off compared to Osprey and Wiki. I've seen 1,700 to 3,300 for the Fokker D.VII. Halberstadt CL II/IV numbered around 900.

[celticgriffon]

The Paragon ruleset was developed in 1977 (that is what the copyright date says in my booklet). A lot of data has likely been uncovered since then.

Michael

[Jager]

You have hit on one of my major annoyances with this game -- why does Nexus|Ares insist on shoveling out the *worst* of Britain's aviation industry, instead of giving the Entente some two-seaters which *aren't* target-practice for the Germans; while at the same time forcing the Entente to deal with the Roland?

Give me a Sopwith 1A2 or 1B2 (French-built 1&1/2-Strutters) escorted by some Hanriot HD.1s, and players will stop asking how the West won the War when German acft. were going-away superior. >:|

Actually, the DH-4, which came in the same series as the Roland, is quite superior to it, and not an easy mark for the D.VII, esp. the A/A models.
It's the Roland that's out of place in the series.
Now the Roland, flown against it's contemporaries Neuport 17s and Sopwith Pups, can be quite a handful, esp. when you have the C.IIas escorting the C.IIs, as was the practice.
That said, I would rather have a Strutter over the Re-8; the latter is just a target.
Karl

[john snelling]

The Paragon ruleset was developed in 1977 (that is what the copyright date says in my booklet). A lot of data has likely been uncovered since then.

Michael

concur, now if they can find some long lost documents from the Nieuport factory that discloses how many Nieuport's were built!!

[csadn]

Actually, the DH-4, which came in the same series as the Roland, is quite superior to it, and not an easy mark for the D.VII, esp. the A/A models.

I wouldn't call the DH4 that much better; where it scores over the Roland is, as mentioned, in having A-deck guns instead of B-deck. Much the same applies to the Bristol F2B (technically a fighter, to be sure, but still a 2-holer).

That said, I would rather have a Strutter over the Re-8; the latter is just a target.

Indeed -- in fact, just about anything would have been better than the RE8; but this is what happens when a company only produces the "famous" (or "infamous") units.