Multi-player games question

**Khargor** · 06-13-2010 10:23

After only a couple of games, I've already got my first question - in multi-player games, how do you ensure that both sides have balanced forces in regard of the plane selection?

With wargaming, I'm used to a set 'points' limit to use to select the army and don't understand how to make sure that one side doesn't have an unfair advantage over the other by simply using only effective planes? (say, for example, late war planes when they're playing early war enemy planes). Is there some kind of weighting system? E.g: 'this Sopwith Snipe is a category 2 plane which means you can have 2x category 1 planes, or another category 2 plane to play against it' or something else?

That probably wasn't the best way to try to explain what I mean, I hope it makes sense. I've had a look at past posts in the forums to see it this has come up before but can't seem to find anything to give me the answer.

**IRM** · 06-13-2010 12:14

I know what your getting at. There's no real (official) points system or similar, but there's two common approaches:

1: Pick aircraft based on what was available at the time your game is set (not always balanced as the advantage swung back and forth regarding aircraft quality).

2: Match aircraft with similar capabilities e.g. if the Allies take a Camel, SPAD XIII and a Snipe give the Central Powers a Fokker triplane, Albatros D.Va and Fokker DVII respectively.

**flash** · 06-13-2010 13:21

Hi Shaun,
Iains right, those are the best ways to handle it & things weren't always balanced in the real world - Verner Voss took on half a dozen SE5s pretty much on his own in a Fokker triplane (yeah, he died but he didn't go easy) - and being up against it is part of the fun. So worry not, experiment & go for it !

**Air Battle Mgr** · 06-13-2010 20:54

As a fellow newbie to the game, I can see the strenghts and weaknesses of each plane but I guess I am still naive enough to think that any weakness can be exploited.

For example, one piece of advice I got on this site is to get to the left of the DR1's because they only have a good right turn due to the rotary engines. I use it all the time.

Also, today my spad could get into trouble and run away fast but unless you are willing to Immelman and go back beak-to-beak you are not turning around anytime soon.

In our games, we don't put any planes off limits and we enjoy the challenges.

Again, advice from a new guy

so take it for what it is worth.

Air Battle Manager
timmy

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 06-14-2010 05:13

In our games, we don't put any planes off limits and we enjoy the challenges.

Again, advice from a new guy

so take it for what it is worth.

Air Battle Manager
timmy

I agree with Timmy. If you want to experiment with different scenarios all the more fun. I know some folks are in it to win, but to me the best game is when you are up against it and you pull of an unexpected stroke or your favourite trick works out for once. Even going down in a blaze of glory so that your wingmen can pull off some objective has it's own pleasure. So go for it .Try out as many variations as you can. You will learn something new every time.
Rob.

**Khargor** · 06-14-2010 13:43

Thanks for the advice gents - I think I'll go for the 'this plane against all-comers' approach for my own games but I've got a small wargaming club that I run at the school I teach in and when they heard I was getting the box set and planes some of them went to the local gaming store and have bought planes of their own. I had 3 of them come up to me today and they want me to set a game for them on wednesday!

Because my LGS has got about half of the models available for WoW (and they tend to be the slightly less in demand ones it seems) its going to be hard trying to match up ideal adversaries. It would help me and the club if we had some idea or rating about each type of plane - would anyone help me to rate them so I can hand the printed sheet to the kids and they could see how balanced the game would be and decide if they want to change planes, etc?

I don't have the experience to rate them effectively but what about a star system with 1x star for 'softer' planes, 2x stars for 'average' planes and 3x stars for 'harder' planes? Any help would be appreciated

**flash** · 06-15-2010 05:44

Hey Shaun - firstly, well done for getting youngsters involved in gaming;
secondly, have a look at the cards for the fighters & match the straight line speed - the nearer they are in length then the likelyhood is they will be better matched for your purposes.
Get the players together and compare the cards too - they will then see and understand that the performances are different and you can explain that different skills were used to make them successful - after all there were Aces on most if not all fighters.
Good luck !

**LGKR** · 06-15-2010 07:39

Originally Posted by flash

Hi Shaun,
Iains right, those are the best ways to handle it & things weren't always balanced in the real world - Verner Voss took on half a dozen SE5s pretty much on his own in a Fokker triplane (yeah, he died but he didn't go easy) - and being up against it is part of the fun. So worry not, experiment & go for it !

You forgot to mention that Voss put holes in all 6 planes and did it with a tremendous hang over.

**IRM** · 06-15-2010 08:34

Or that he'd shot down two others in short order before those six turned up !

Khargor, I've sent you a PM. I'd have posted it here, but then I'd have a horde of folk jumping on to criticise my ratings if they thought I'd maligned their favourite plane

**flash** · 06-15-2010 10:56

I wanted to give an example not a history lesson - "he died but he didn't go easy" suggests enough & if it piques Shauns interest he may read up on it !

He has to - it's the teacher within !

**Khargor** · 06-15-2010 13:45

if it piques Shauns interest he may read up on it !

He has to - it's the teacher within !

You're right - you guys got me with the ' Voss put holes in all 6 planes and did it with a tremendous hang over.' line! [Google search going on in a background tab even as I type now]

[Google search done] - what a character! his last flight seems like something out of a Biggles novel! That kind of background information will really help fluff out the character of the Voss' plane when I'm using it, and its also given me the idea of getting the kids to research the ace linked to the plane they use tomorrow and produce a fact file for the other players to read next wednesday lunchtime. They're going to love you lot when I tell them their homework was your fault!

Back on topic though - thanks everyone for your advice and help, it really is appreciated as I still haven't quite got used to the lack of strict pointage and army selection choices, but I'll get there...

**flash** · 06-16-2010 08:52

Let go Shaun........... use the Force.....

Hope the guys have fun - Voss's last stand is on youtube along with loads of other computer generated action they might enjoy - mostly covered by the History Channels Dogfights series.

**guzzoid** · 06-16-2010 09:46

Originally Posted by Khargor

Thanks for the advice gents - I think I'll go for the 'this plane against all-comers' approach for my own games but I've got a small wargaming club that I run at the school I teach in and when they heard I was getting the box set and planes some of them went to the local gaming store and have bought planes of their own. I had 3 of them come up to me today and they want me to set a game for them on wednesday!

Because my LGS has got about half of the models available for WoW (and they tend to be the slightly less in demand ones it seems) its going to be hard trying to match up ideal adversaries. It would help me and the club if we had some idea or rating about each type of plane - would anyone help me to rate them so I can hand the printed sheet to the kids and they could see how balanced the game would be and decide if they want to change planes, etc?

I don't have the experience to rate them effectively but what about a star system with 1x star for 'softer' planes, 2x stars for 'average' planes and 3x stars for 'harder' planes? Any help would be appreciated

How about separating by the year they were introduced?

**Khargor** · 06-16-2010 10:20

We had the club today and I think its safe to say the kids had a great time playing in a 4x plane free-for-all. They really enjoyed the game (you could tell by just how fidgety and excited they got just before it was their turn to shoot!) and I think they're hooked as well. To set the mood for the game I played the dogfight scene from 'The Red Baron' on the interactive board and grinned as they practically scrambled to get to the game mat when the scene finished!

They didn't even flinch when I set them their homework of researching their ace (I also told them it was all this forums fault that they had to do it!!)

Seriously though, a big thanks to everyone for their help and advice

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 06-16-2010 13:21

Hi Shaun.
Glad it went so well. I used to run a school W.G. club in my younger days, and found it very rewarding.
Rob.

**guzzoid** · 06-16-2010 13:36

Just a thought, if one of your kids is always getting beat because he has an inferior plane give him an extra ace ability to even things out and encourage them to get the weaker planes.

**Oberst Hajj** · 06-16-2010 22:22

Giving an Ace skill to earlier planes is a good way to even things up a bit. IF you just have to to have a points system, read this thread.

**Charlie3** · 06-23-2010 15:47

The group I game with has been playing WoW for over a year every Tuesday night. We have found that most games that have the same number of planes are fairly well balanced.

Yes the DVII and the Snipe are nasty, but they still have to get within range to shoot you down, and if you are flying right, are likely to get a hole or two themselves. This brings up the need for the dreaded and much debated explosion card again. This card is the great equalizer in the game. It doesn't care how many damage points your plane has, or how fast or maneuverable it is, it just ends your flight. Actually all of the special damage cards can severly cripple a plane making it a prime target. My favorite card to hate is the engine damage card. Having to play a stall once every game turn (3 cards) really puts a crimp on your maneuverability, and escape speed!!!

As long as you avoid obvious mismatches like an Einedecker vs a Snipe or the like you should be good. I have found a pair of early war planes are a good match for a single mid war plane, and most mid war planes are a challenge for a late war plane. So don't sweat the points stuff, and just fly by the seat of your pants!!

**Air Battle Mgr** · 06-23-2010 22:06

[QUOTE=Charlie3;18342] This brings up the need for the dreaded and much debated explosion card again. This card is the great equalizer in the game. It doesn't care how many damage points your plane has, or how fast or maneuverable it is, it just ends your flight. Actually all of the special damage cards can severly cripple a plane making it a prime target. My favorite card to hate is the engine damage card. Having to play a stall once every game turn (3 cards) really puts a crimp on your maneuverability, and escape speed!!!/QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more, especially for a beginner like me who has to refer to the rulebook at least once a game

, I appreciate how Andrea put in the chance for some dumb blind luck.

As you read the history of some of these aces you see some of them were bested by beginners luck.

Timmy

**rrodrick** · 06-23-2010 23:19

Congrats Shaun--

Putting all those ace teaching skills to use the students never had a chance! Thanks for caring about kids and creating some new gamers.

**Khargor** · 06-24-2010 15:50

Hope the guys have fun - Voss's last stand is on youtube along with loads of other computer generated action they might enjoy - mostly covered by the History Channels Dogfights series.

Watched them and was really impressed! The 'Dogfights' series DVDs are now on my Most Wanted list.

Between them, the kids have got 1x Roland, 1x Nieuport, 1x Camel with a couple more of them waiting to get theirs this weekend hopefully. I bring in some of the ones I've now got so we have a bit of variety as well.

After having a look in the 'files' section on the site (a sincere thanks to everyone who put those files up for sharing), now I'm really tempted to start them on a campaign as soon as they are confident enough with altitude - hopefully it'll keep them coming back for more!