Dive speed bonus?

['Warspite']

I am new to Wings of Glory but have a 40-year background in aerial wargaming. Back in the 1970s and 1980s, my old wargames clubs used to use 1/72 WW1 and WW2 aircraft mounted on Meccano strips or pieces of dowel rod which had been marked out in inches for vertical height levels. The stands were moved for linear movement, cardboard turning circles of different diameters were used for turns and the aircraft could dive or climb down or up the poles. A typical WW1 aircraft moved 10 inches (100 mph) but lost one inch for each level climbed but gained two inches for each level dived. A dive of three levels (3,000 feet) gained about 6 inches or 60 mph.

One thing I have noticed with Wings of Glory is that there is no similar speed bonus in a dive. If an aircraft dives it will soon increase speed. A Spitfire will gain about 100 mph in a 1,000 foot dive (I asked a pilot) while a Consolidated Catalina pilot told me a Catalina gained about 50 mph over the same 1000 foot height drop.

I have been considering a WoG house rule that if an aircraft dives and sheds a complete peg in height, after the three cards have been played and before the next turn starts, the diving aircraft receives a fourth card (but no shooting). This fourth card can only be a straight move or the largest diameter of turn available to that type... so a Dr1 or Camel would not be able to play their tight turn cards.

Any thoughts?

[flash]

Think I have those old rule in some vintage Military Modelling mags - looked fantastic !
I would say a whole move is a bit too much - maybe use a short straight stall card as a measure in conjunction with the dive card to represent the speed gain would be more in line with things (disregarding the steep part of it of course).

['Warspite']

Think I have those old rule in some vintage Military Modelling mags - looked fantastic !
I would say a whole move is a bit too much - maybe use a short straight stall card as a measure in conjunction with the dive card to represent the speed gain would be more in line with things (disregarding the steep part of it of course).

I think you may be thinking of the old Paragon WW1 rules, they may have been featured in MM.
Romford Wargames Club, later Harold Wood Wargamers, were about five years pre-Paragon.

Regarding dive speed. Remember that while time will be expended in a dive, the aircraft may come out of the dive at about 150 to 160 mph (more for an SE 5 or Spad XIII). Modern pilots report that it is difficult to get the reproduction Fe2b two-seat pusher type up to its 'red line' of 110 mph, but then the Fe2b is a pusher design with a lot of interplane struts which will increase its drag.

One method might be to allow a full card to the inline-engined 'power' types like the Spad XIII, SE5, etc but a half card to the rotary types like the DR1, Camel, and all early machines and two seaters. An exception could be made for late Bristol Fighters and give them a full card.

[Bobit]

Two possible explanations/excuses that this house rule is not included:

1) Yes, you are gaining speed. But, you are also moving vertically, and thus some of that speed is you going down at the same time as forward. So, in how fast you are travelling horizontally, it might be about the same.

2) The game was originally designed for WW1, where huge (straight down) dives might not be safe. I'm guessing here though.

3) (Of course) complicated.

[Nicola Zee]

I like the 3 movement cards system a lot but the altitude rules seemed to me to be a bit unsatisfactory.
I use the extended altitude rules from the WW1 Wings of Glory Rules and Accessories Pack.
I find the climb counters work fine and the extra altitude (where the levels go from 1 to 16) is more realistic than just having 4 levels.

I use a hidden counter (numbered 1 and 2) which is played at the start of each turn.
If a dive card is played with the counter 2, the dive is a double dive - so drops 2 levels.
If a climb card is played with the counter 2, the climb is a double climb - so gain 2 climb counters.
A double dive extends the movement card in the following step (by using the straight to extend it). I believe somebody else on this forum originally came up with using a straight as an extension.
A double climb causes the movement step in the following step to be skipped - so the plane does not move in the skipped step.
I found using these simple rules does not add much complexity, but makes height more important.
[Edited to improve grammar and make it clearer]

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Two possible explanations/excuses that this house rule is not included:

1) Yes, you are gaining speed. But, you are also moving vertically, and thus some of that speed is you going down at the same time as forward. So, in how fast you are travelling horizontally, it might be about the same.

2) The game was originally designed for WW1, where huge (straight down) dives might not be safe. I'm guessing here though.

3) (Of course) complicated.

I am pretty sure that Andrea gave that sort of answer some time ago about the forward speed in a dive Bobit.
It was all to do with length of the diagonal being longer than the plan view of the movement. The same must be true for the climb. The aircraft is actually covering more distance than the card appears to show.
Rob.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

That is an interesting take on the Overdive Nicola. However, other than a boom and zoom move, I can't see how you could do a double climb. Maybe I have missed a point in your post? The idea intrigues me though.
Rob.

[Nicola Zee]

That is an interesting take on the Overdive Nicola. However, other than a boom and zoom move, I can't see how you could do a double climb. Maybe I have missed a point in your post? The idea intrigues me though.
Rob.

The numbered counter is separate from the climb and dive card. I call it the Altitude Change Counter. It's played facedown at the start of each turn and revealed with the first movement card.
I use two counters from the game Rummikub numbered 1 and 2 for each plane but you could easily make your own.
Altitude Change Counter [1] - Climb or Dive Card acts just as normal
Altitude Change Counter [2] - Climb Card acts as Double Climb
Altitude Change Counter [2] - Dive Card acts as Double Dive

I use the Double Dive instead of the Overdive since it enables both an extended steep turning dive and (as you've pointed out) a boom and zoom.

Boom & Zoom
Altitude Change Counter [2] - Dive, Non-Steep Card, Climb
Which becomes drop 2 levels, extend the next card with a straight and gain 2 climb counters.

Does this make more sense?
It's a lot easier showing someone than describing it.

Double Climb
Altitude Change Counter [2] - Climb Card, Any movement card as it's going to be skipped, Non Steep Card

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Yes thanks Nicola.
Got the gist of it now.
Rob.

[john snelling]

Two possible explanations/excuses that this house rule is not included:

1) Yes, you are gaining speed. But, you are also moving vertically, and thus some of that speed is you going down at the same time as forward. So, in how fast you are travelling horizontally, it might be about the same.

2) The game was originally designed for WW1, where huge (straight down) dives might not be safe. I'm guessing here though.

3) (Of course) complicated.

Great answer. KISS

[wargamer]

Even with the concept of KISS, you can use a house rule to simulate gaining speed in WW one aircraft, simply do your double dive, and remove your wings. Place a smoking crater marker on the ground where the aircraft was, remove the model from the play area, and continue if any other aircraft are still flying.

[john snelling]

Even with the concept of KISS, you can use a house rule to simulate gaining speed in WW one aircraft, simply do your double dive, and remove your wings. Place a smoking crater marker on the ground where the aircraft was, remove the model from the play area, and continue if any other aircraft are still flying.

Excellent!!

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Seems a bit extreme to me Al.
We all know that aircraft could dive a considerable way even in WWI. It is just knowing how much strain you can put on the frame. Then there is the gentle pull out.
Right I see what you mean! I'll get me coat, if I can find it in the smoking crater, which apparently closes over the aircraft as it buries itself in the ground so I've been told.
Rob.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

I think drawing extra damage would work, and if you went over your tally or draw the boom card....hello crater in the ground!

[Nicola Zee]

Even with the concept of KISS, you can use a house rule to simulate gaining speed in WW one aircraft, simply do your double dive, and remove your wings. Place a smoking crater marker on the ground where the aircraft was, remove the model from the play area, and continue if any other aircraft are still flying.

I am a great believer in keeping things simple - but on the other hand the historical evidence is clear, many WWI single-seater planes could do steep dives safely and a few later ones were famous for their ability to do a prolonged steep dive.
Even some of the notoriously unsafe divers could be steeply dived if the pilot was brave enough - oddly the Red Baron regarded the DR1 as good at steep dives
Would a near vertical dive be safe (or even possible) for a Dr1? Probably not, but a fairly steep (30 degree) angle would probably be possible and relatively safe and would lead to a noticeable increase in speed.
And the VNE of a Spad or SE5a was much higher than its normal speed. The preferred tactic of the pilots of these types of planes was B&Z.
In short it all depends on the plane. A SE5a would be safe - a Fokker EIII would end up as a crater.

[john snelling]

The Spad 7 and 13 were good divers. The German made Albatros D-III was not, but the Austrian made one was OK. The list could go on and on. But on the other hand if it works for you why not? Lots of luck!

[Nicola Zee]

The Spad 7 and 13 were good divers. The German made Albatros D-III was not, but the Austrian made one was OK. The list could go on and on. But on the other hand if it works for you why not? Lots of luck!

The list can be as complex as you want but I settled on the following:

Normal Double Dive - Most planes
Any non-steep movement card can be played following the Dive card of a Double Dive.

Altitude Change Counter restricted to 1
The following planes cannot Double Climb or Dive. They can still Overdive.
Fokker EIII, Morane Saulnier N, RE8

Restricted Double Dive
Only a straight movement card can be played following the Dive card of a Double Dive
All two-seaters (except RE8), Fokker Dr1, Albatros DIII, Albatros DVa, All Nieuport, Arco DH2

I don't believe these restrictions (or my house rules) are complex and it makes climbing and diving a lot more interesting. So far, players seem to pick up the ideas pretty quick.


I've tried Triple Dives for the really good divers with the second and third movement cards both straights and both extended (Se5a, Spad VII, Spad XIII, Siemens Schuckert D.III, Sopwith Dolphin, and Fokker DVII) but I found the distance travelled somewhat over-the-top. The Spad XIII travels an impressive distance with a Double Dive - it does not need the extra boost. So, I've stopped trying to add something extra for these planes.

[Nicola Zee]

I think you may be thinking of the old Paragon WW1 rules, they may have been featured in MM.
Romford Wargames Club, later Harold Wood Wargamers, were about five years pre-Paragon.

Regarding dive speed. Remember that while time will be expended in a dive, the aircraft may come out of the dive at about 150 to 160 mph (more for an SE 5 or Spad XIII). Modern pilots report that it is difficult to get the reproduction Fe2b two-seat pusher type up to its 'red line' of 110 mph, but then the Fe2b is a pusher design with a lot of interplane struts which will increase its drag.

One method might be to allow a full card to the inline-engined 'power' types like the Spad XIII, SE5, etc but a half card to the rotary types like the DR1, Camel, and all early machines and two seaters. An exception could be made for late Bristol Fighters and give them a full card.

To expand on your idea, you could create a dive 'extension' card which is like a straight but with a mark halfway along the line. The dive 'extension' card is used to extend the movement card played immediately following the dive. An extension is done by taking the extension movement card and lining up the card's rear mark in line with the blue arrow of the original movement card. The good thing is that the new dive extension card does not need to be kept hidden, does not need to be part of the original movement card decks and its back does not need to match the original cards.
Then have three groups of planes
Bad Divers - No dive extension
Normal Divers (most planes) - Half Extension
Good Divers - Full Extension

The card following a dive is always non-steep and so the card extended will be non-steep. I believe this would get what you want which is an increase in forward movement following a dive (without a big increase). If you wanted more realism, you could create a dive extension card for each individual plane - but that might be too much work.

['Warspite']

To expand on your idea, you could create a dive 'extension' card which is like a straight but with a mark halfway along the line. The dive 'extension' card is used to extend the movement card played immediately following the dive. An extension is done by taking the extension movement card and lining up the card's rear mark in line with the blue arrow of the original movement card. The good thing is that the new dive extension card does not need to be kept hidden, does not need to be part of the original movement card decks and its back does not need to match the original cards.
Then have three groups of planes
Bad Divers - No dive extension
Normal Divers (most planes) - Half Extension
Good Divers - Full Extension

The card following a dive is always non-steep and so the card extended will be non-steep. I believe this would get what you want which is an increase in forward movement following a dive (without a big increase). If you wanted more realism, you could create a dive extension card for each individual plane - but that might be too much work.

Thank you Nicola,
The question then follows... what are good and bad divers? Our club's old rules allowed various aircraft types to have different dive rates plus a 'risk' throw on percentage dice for pushing certain types to their dive limits. Adapting those old rules plus recent research suggests the following...

Good divers would include:
Spad XIII, Spad VII, SE5 and SE5a, Fokker DVII, Pfalz DIII, DIIIa and DXII. Notice these are all 'inline machines' with heavy water-cooled engines. I would probably allow the Albatros DII as well and would allow the DIII and DV except for its propensity to break-up in dives. Austrian Albatros fighters appear immune to break-ups.

Normal divers would include:
anything not listed in either group above or below. Most rotary types plus DH4, RE8, Roland CII etc. Most Nieuports.

Bad divers would include:
FE2, DH2, FE8, FB5 (basically all the pusher types). A case could also be made for the Sopwith Pup and possibly the Sopwith Triplane. I found a quote today about Roland CIIs apparently outdiving Sopwith Pups.

Any German Albatros DIII, DV or any Fokker Triplane making two consecutive dives (consecutive moves, not consecutive cards) must roll for possible destruction - one pair of percentage dice, any score of 1-10% and the wings collapse.
Albatros fighters only may attempt to dive as a good diver (i.e. the full card) but the destruction chance increases to 1-20%.
A third consecutive move of diving adds a further 10% to all these base chances.

In the case of Nieuports diving, they seem to suffer wing damage rather than destruction so I would halve the Albatros percentages and say that if that score is achieved, you roll a 1-6 dice for points damage. I recall Mannock badly strained a Nieuport while the AEF reported that Nieuport 28s regularly stripped canvas from the leading edge of the wings.

[Nicola Zee]

Thank you Nicola,
The question then follows... what are good and bad divers? Our club's old rules allowed various aircraft types to have different dive rates plus a 'risk' throw on percentage dice for pushing certain types to their dive limits. Adapting those old rules plus recent research suggests the following...

Good divers would include:
Spad XIII, Spad VII, SE5 and SE5a, Fokker DVII, Pfalz DIII, DIIIa and DXII. Notice these are all 'inline machines' with heavy water-cooled engines. I would probably allow the Albatros DII as well and would allow the DIII and DV except for its propensity to break-up in dives. Austrian Albatros fighters appear immune to break-ups.

Normal divers would include:
anything not listed in either group above or below. Most rotary types plus DH4, RE8, Roland CII etc. Most Nieuports.

Bad divers would include:
FE2, DH2, FE8, FB5 (basically all the pusher types). A case could also be made for the Sopwith Pup and possibly the Sopwith Triplane.

Any German Albatros DIII, DV or any Fokker Triplane making two consecutive dives (consecutive moves, not consecutive cards) must roll for possible destruction - one pair of percentage dice, any score of 1-10% and the wings collapse.
Albatros fighters only may attempt to dive as a good diver (i.e. the full card) but the destruction chance increases to 1-20%.
A third consecutive move of diving adds a further 10% to all these base chances.

In the case of Nieuports diving, they seem to suffer wing damage rather than destruction so I would halve the Albatros percentages and say that if that score is achieved, you roll a 1-6 dice for points damage. I recall Mannock badly strained a Nieuport while the AEF reported that Nieuport 28s regularly stripped canvas from the leading edge of the wings.

Generally this sounds good to me. The Fokker EIII was notoriously dangerous in a steep dive - worse than the Albatros DIII - as the wing warping was an innate structural weakness.
The Sopwith Tripe was definitely more dangerous diver than the Dr1 as the wing bracing was weaker.
I'm not convinced the Nieuports were that much safer than the Albatros - so for me the extra complexity is not worth it.

I like the idea of a risk applied to certain fighters for multiple steep dives and (if its OK with you) will use this idea in my own house rules.
I would treat the following planes as 'unsafe' divers.
Fokker EIII, Fokker Dr1, Albatros DIII, Albatros DVa, All Nieuport, and Sopwith Tripe.

To be honest your house rules are more realistic and complex than the ones I'm using. I like the simplicity of Wings of Glory and am trying to keep changes small - but I found the lack of a proper steep dive and climb just too unrealistic to be ignored.

[Hunter]

Agree with you, Barry. I've bugged by this since I've been playing WoW/WoG. I've been looking for ways to incorporate this into the game. I do like your first posting in this thread and have come to similar conclusion. I am attempting to appeal to our players here for testing.

Thank you Nicola,
The question then follows... what are good and bad divers? Our club's old rules allowed various aircraft types to have different dive rates plus a 'risk' throw on percentage dice for pushing certain types to their dive limits. Adapting those old rules plus recent research suggests the following...

Good divers would include:
Spad XIII, Spad VII, SE5 and SE5a, Fokker DVII, Pfalz DIII, DIIIa and DXII. Notice these are all 'inline machines' with heavy water-cooled engines. I would probably allow the Albatros DII as well and would allow the DIII and DV except for its propensity to break-up in dives. Austrian Albatros fighters appear immune to break-ups.

Normal divers would include:
anything not listed in either group above or below. Most rotary types plus DH4, RE8, Roland CII etc. Most Nieuports.

Bad divers would include:
FE2, DH2, FE8, FB5 (basically all the pusher types). A case could also be made for the Sopwith Pup and possibly the Sopwith Triplane. I found a quote today about Roland CIIs apparently outliving Sopwith Pups.

Any German Albatros DIII, DV or any Fokker Triplane making two consecutive dives (consecutive moves, not consecutive cards) must roll for possible destruction - one pair of percentage dice, any score of 1-10% and the wings collapse.
Albatros fighters only may attempt to dive as a good diver (i.e. the full card) but the destruction chance increases to 1-20%.
A third consecutive move of diving adds a further 10% to all these base chances.

In the case of Nieuports diving, they seem to suffer wing damage rather than destruction so I would halve the Albatros percentages and say that if that score is achieved, you roll a 1-6 dice for points damage. I recall Mannock badly strained a Nieuport while the AEF reported that Nieuport 28s regularly stripped canvas from the leading edge of the wings.