To cut down on the blood bath

[CappyTom]

When we play with a large group, say 6 or more, we find that everyone just shoots as soon as they get in range. No one tries to get a better angle for the shot or to get in close. So, we came out with putting 7 damage cards in front of your cockpit and that's how many shots you have. If your in close range and the enemy plane takes 2 damage cards they will take the 2nd one from the damage deck and not another one of your shots. It makes one think before he or she shoots. Its fun when not in a tournament. I'm trying to write a scenario using this idea. Has any of you guys tried this? Welcome any feedback.

[usmc1855]

The Knights of the Air Campaign rules (by this sites Kieth Upton, and area are available as a download from this forum) has a good 10 shot per flight rule which works real well.

My group uses the altitude rules, which forces a lot more maneuvering before firing.

[Oberst Hajj]

As usmc1855 mentioned, we use 10 cards per gun to represent our ammo during a mission. We have actually not had anyone run out of ammo yet (had a two seater down to 3 cards between his two guns) and several time the fighters/scouts have been down to less then 3. There have been lots and lots of games where we have checked the amount of damage left in our ammo decks to find out we could not have shot any thing down!

I have been thinking about lowering the amount of ammo in KotA to 8 cards.

[CappyTom]

We didn't look at the cards while playing and at the end if everyone is out of shots and no one is shot down then we go with who had the worst damage. Only once did everyone not get shot down. We shuffle 2 decks then pass out the cards and at least one pilot has a Bang shot or the one shot kill. Its fun, and we like it. But I think we will stay with seven shots. Thanks for the feed back.

Tom

[KirkH]

I thought about adding ammo limits just to add an element of realism. I'd give each plane with deck guns maybe eight shots with Lewis guns getting four before needing to reload. This would do well for the SE-5a as it would allow four shots on the "A" deck and then the pilot would have to shoot on the "B" deck until he reloads his Lewis. I'd say reloading takes something like three turn segments (not game turns) during which the pilot can't fire his other gun. Observers would be able to reload their flexible guns in three turn segments as well. I believe the German Parabellum had a larger magazine so flexible German guns would only have to reload after six shots.

[SHVAK]

I plan on posting my "Advanced Rules" - complete with player aid charts, once I transfer everything to a .pdf file. These advanced rules were created to:
- increase realism
- not bog down the game
- not change basic game mechanics

These rules are now standard in my games. You will need a six-sided die and pencil and a pad of paper to record the following; one person on each team can record the ammo counts of a dozen aircraft with ease.

Firing Guns
Regarding guns and bullets, historically the Lewis gun had a 97-round magazine (we'll say 100) while the Spandau had 500 and the others (ie Vickers, Schwarzlose 400). Parabellum treated same as Lewis. Rates of Fire for each gun were close so this factor becomes negligable. Thus the ammo counts for each gun are:
- Spandau 25
- Vickers 20
- Schwartlose 15
- Lewis 5
A long range shot use 2 ammo counts, short range uses 1 ammo counts. Thus the Lewis can only fire three times (2.5 rounded up) at long range, or 5 times at short range, or a combination. Once ammo is depleted it is gone, but Lewis and Parabellum guns can reload. Each pilot has an initial load plus 2 reloads (15 counts); rear gunner has initial plus 4 reloads.

Reloading and Unjamming
Green jam card jams one gun (ie half of a twin-barrelled Spandau); red card jams all firing guns. A partially jammed Spandau (or Vickers or SE5a mixed weaponry) can still fire, but as "B" damage instead of "A" damage. Gun jam counter for a pilot is only removed if:
- plane is not on fire
- plane flies straight maneouver that is not part of immelman or overdive
- pilot not involved in shooting or reloading
Reloading follows similar procedure with respect to plane on fire and plane flying a true straight maneouver. Only one barrel/gun can be unjammed at a time. If the SE5a Vickers/Lewis gun suffers a partial jam, roll the 1D6 die: 1-3 = Lewis; 4-6 = Vickers.

Sounds complicated, but it's not.

On top of this, I add historical airframe realism:
- Nieuport 11 and Fokker A.III receive four gun jam counters instead of three (no Foster or other mount to help pilot access gun)
- Schwarzlose equipped Albatross D.III and Aviatik D.1 receive one permanently jammed barrel if a red gun jam card is drawn, non-Schwarzlose planes are not affected (I have another chart showing aircraft availability and selection)
- Pflaz D.III cannot unjam (it couldn't due to pilot inaccessibility; but problem was rectified with D.IIIa variant)
- Albatross D.V and D.Va only get 2 jam counters - these aircraft had a forced trim on the control stick which centered it, arguably making it easier for a pilot to focus attention on other matters (such as unjamming)

Again everything is simpler and at your fingertips with the playaids - all of which fit into a box set without bending.

[CappyTom]

I plan on posting my "Advanced Rules" - complete with player aid charts, once I transfer everything to a .pdf file. These advanced rules were created to:
- increase realism
- not bog down the game
- not change the game with respect to basic function.

These rules have become standard rules in my games. You will need a six-sided die and pencil and a pad of paper to record the following; one person on each team can record the ammo counts of a dozen aircraft with ease.

Firing Guns
Regarding guns and bullets, historically the Lewis gun had a 97-round magazine (we'll say 100) while the Spandau had 500 and the others (ie Vickers, Schwarzlose 400). Parabellum same as Lewis. Rates of Fire for each gun were close so this factor becomes negligable. Thus the Spandau gets 25 ammo counts, Vickers 20 and Lewis 5. Long range shot use 2 ammo counts, short range uses 1 ammo counts. Thus the Lewis can only fire three times (2.5 rounded up) at long range. Once ammo is depleted it is gone, Lewis and Parabellum guns can reload. Pilot has initial load plus 2 reloads (15 counts), rear gunner has initial plus 4 reloads.

Reloading and Unjamming
Green jam card jams one gun (ie half of a twin-barrelled Spandau); red card jams all firing guns. A partially jammed Spandau (or Vickers or SE5a mixed weaponry) can still fire, but as "B" damage instead of "A" damage. Gun jam counter for a pilot is only removed if: plane is not on fire; plane flies straight maneouver that is not part of immelman or overdive; and pilot not involved in shooting or reloading. Reloading follows similar procedure with respect to plane on fire and plane flying a true straight maneouver. Only one barrel/gun can be unjammed at a time. If the SE5a Vickers/Lewis gun suffers a partial jam, roll the 1D6 die: 1-3 = Lewis; 4-6 = Vickers.

Sounds complicated, but it's not, and the forthcoming point form play aid makes this easier to do than reading it here.

On top of this, I add historical airframe realism as well:
- Nieuport 11 and Fokker A.III receive four gun jam counters instead of three (no Foster or other mount to help with unjamming)
- Various Schwarzlose equipped Albatross D.III and Aviatik D.1 cannot unjam (one barrel) at all if a red gun jam card is drawn, non-Schwarzlose are not affected (I have another chart showing aircraft availability and selection)
- Pflaz D.III cannot unjam (it couldn't due to pilot inaccessibility; rectified with D.IIIa variant)
- Albatross D.V and D.Va only get 2 jam counters - these aircraft had a forced trim on the control stick which centered it, arguably making it easier for a pilot to focus attention on other matters

Again everything is simpler and at your fingertips with the playaids - all of which fit into a box set without bending.

So are you going to be using playing cards for the damage decks or what? And when are you coming to central Ohio? Of course after you get the rules worked out. hehe
It sounds great. Look forward to see it all.

Tom

[SHVAK]

Rules are already worked out and tested. Everything condensed onto one double-side play aid (just under 8x8 inches square).

No playing cards involved. Takes a couple of games to become familiar with the new rules. The most complicated is the random aircraft chart based on historic availability - many gun options such as Lewis or Vickers equipped Nieuports

or

overgunned variants such as Collishaw's Triplane, or Nieuports, Hanriot's or Pfalz's, which become "A" damage +1 at the expense of manouvering (2 normal cards between each steep manouver).

Did not tamper with altitude rules - they lack now, but messing with them really bogs down the game.

[Desaix]

Excellent rules SHVAK !
I will definitively try them in my next game...

[SHVAK]

Thx Desaix

The entire gun and gun jam/reload rules are almost complete as presented (missing are rules deflection shooting, shoot at real thing, overlapping miniature bases and Foster mount can shoot from below). The advanced rules in bold can be found elsewhere online so I do not take credit for these, albeit I've modified and simplified the Foster mount rule.

Remember, my overall goal was to add historic realism to this game, without bogging down gameplay or drastically changing game mechanics. The only real change is the addition of dice, used mainly for scenario/campaign set-up. Dice serve only one purpose during gameplay (jamming on planes with different guns) and could be easily be replaced using C or D damage cards.

[Desaix]

We are on the exact same mind set SHVAK it seems ...

I also use deflection shooting (I think with speak of the same thing at least where you shoot via a line passing from back to front of your enemy) with a personal variant ...

I don't use shoot at real thing because I found it gamey and unhistorical ...

I don't know Foster mount can shoot from below I think or maybe under another name... What is it about ?

[Desaix]

So I though about your variant on ammo :

Firing Guns
Regarding guns and bullets, historically the Lewis gun had a 97-round magazine (we'll say 100) while the Spandau had 500 and the others (ie Vickers, Schwarzlose 400). Parabellum treated same as Lewis. Rates of Fire for each gun were close so this factor becomes negligable. Thus the ammo counts for each gun are:
- Spandau 25
- Vickers 20
- Schwartlose 15
- Lewis 5
A long range shot use 2 ammo counts, short range uses 1 ammo counts. Thus the Lewis can only fire three times (2.5 rounded up) at long range, or 5 times at short range, or a combination. Once ammo is depleted it is gone, but Lewis and Parabellum guns can reload. Each pilot has an initial load plus 2 reloads (15 counts); rear gunner has initial plus 4 reloads.

I think use your numbers and logic but I will simplify it even more and try this week-end the following ammo rule:

# Spandau and Vickers have unlimited fire (14+ time average shots capacity so pretty much unlimited)
# Lewis planes start with 4 ammo counters on their card (using the counters).
They use one ammo counter each time they fire (at any range). When they use the last one, they place 3 jam counters on their plane card and regain 4 new ammo counters when unjamming is done.

Btw what planes were equipped with Schwartlose ?

[SHVAK]

In playtesting, Spandau gunned planes never run out of ammo. Ditto for Vickers as well. Schwarzlose guns are found on Austrian built Albatross D.III (if I recall correctly, occurring around 25% of all Albatross D.III production) and Aviatik D.1 planes.

It was not a good gun and jammed easily. Most Schwarzlose aircraft guns could not be unnjammed, since the gun's location was unaccessible to the pilot in flight. The Pfalz D.III suffered from the location problem as well, albeit it had Spandau guns. I account for these issues (and ratios) in my Random aircraft generator chart.

Aviatik D.1 is supposedly an upcoming release to the WoW game.

[Desaix]

Whee can I find you Random aircraft generator chart ?

[SHVAK]

Desaix - mon frere. What part of Canada are you from? I grew up in Sudbury but call the east coast home.

Anyway, all my files are either on word or exel. I need to put them on Adobe to post them here. I don't have Adobe at home so need to do it elsewhere. I have the program at work but things are a little hectic there at the moment. Will try for October. I also need to create a "Designer's notes" .pdf to explain why things were done, or at least expand on some of the bulleted play aid items which could be confusing to some. Alternatively, PM me with your email addy and I'd be happy to send you my files.

[Oberst Hajj]

Shvak, you should be able to upload both Word and Excel files to the site here. PDFs work better for all the different members, but you could always upload your original files now and replace them with PDFs as you get the time.

[Desaix]

Great, maybe you can put them here then ?

I am also working on a lot fo files en table for my variants that I will be posting here when they are ready...

I also responded to you here www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?t=219 hehe...

[SHVAK]

OK - I'll draft up some quick designer notes (not to totally confuse everyone) and will try to post here on MS Word and Exel.

When I do I'll start a new thread so as not to hijack this one any further- perhaps Col Hajj would like to add a new header - something akin to "game variants"?

[KirkH]

SHVAK - I have a dumb question. Why do long shots use only one ammo while close shots use two? From an ammo use standpoint, I'm guessing both shots really use the same, it's just that at closer range more bullets will hit their mark. I'm thinking to make things even simpler, just say all shots use the same ammo amount.

[Desaix]

I went for same ammo for both range as well I found it more logic and simpler hehe...

[SHVAK]

KIrkH: Please re-read. Two ammo counts are used as long range. One ammo count at short range. At longer range you are further from your target, therefore it would naturally be harder to aim (and hit) your target. In focussing your fire, you would likely hold the trigger down longer to ensure some hits are achieved.

I "borrowed" this concept from another air combat board game.

[KirkH]

But since this game doesn't differentiate between what type of burst one uses, the assumption has to be that one fires the same way regardless of the range. The reason for using two damage cards when in close is because a higher percentage of the bullets will find their mark. Unless one introduces different bursts like Dawn Patrol (interrupted, short, and long) the assumption would be that every shot uses the same amount of ammo.

[Oberst Hajj]

the assumption would be that every shot uses the same amount of ammo.

That is why in my KotA campaign rules, the second damage card for shooting at close range comes from the community deck and not the plays ammo pile.

[CappyTom]

These are all great house rules. So we can pick and choose the ones we like. Hey SHVAK I've got something you could add to your rules you gave me. In the jammed gun section. If someone gets jammed guns and are using your rules about flying straight then after the 3rd marker is removed roll one 6d and on a 1-3 still jammed and 3 more chips and on a 4-6 there working. Or after each chip is removed roll a 6d and same as above 1-3 still jammed and 4-6 fixed. What do you think?

Tom

[SHVAK]

I have two "advanced rule" variants. One that uses dice, and the other (that I gave you) which doesn't.

As I didn't want to change game mechanics too much, I left the dice out of my final version. But incorporating dice makes for a better game IMO (more random possibilities, allowing further damage and shooting variance, as well as manouever and combat disengagement, etc).

CappyT. I would probably go one step further, something like:

> Only place one gun jam chip on the plane (to indicate a jam problem)
> Can only attempt unjamming whilst flying a true straight (no change)
> Roll 1D6 after flying each true straight, if the die roll is a 1-2 the jam is cleared.

With these figures, on average it still takes 3 turns (3 straights) to unjam, but you could unjam in one turn, or need 4+ turns. Naturally, the Albatross D.V/Va series would then unjam on 1-3 vice 1-2, and Schwarzlose equipped planes would only unjam on a 1.

I wouldn't use this procedure for reloading Lewis/Parabellum guns however.


Now you have me rethinking of adding dice to all aspects of the game!

[Desaix]

I still stand for a dice free game for now hehe...

[Eserchie]

Limited ammo. I like. might experiment with this in our group.

[matthew_mole]

I've looked at this rule but have not introduced it into my group as I can't see the benefit or how you would implement it with the models.

What are other people's view of this rule?

Matt

[CappyTom]

That's good too.

I have two "advanced rule" variants. One that uses dice, and the other (that I gave you) which doesn't.

As I didn't want to change game mechanics too much, I left the dice out of my final version. But incorporating dice makes for a better game IMO (more random possibilities, allowing further damage and shooting variance, as well as manouever and combat disengagement, etc).

CappyT. I would probably go one step further, something like:

> Only place one gun jam chip on the plane (to indicate a jam problem)
> Can only attempt unjamming whilst flying a true straight (no change)
> Roll 1D6 after flying each true straight, if the die roll is a 1-2 the jam is cleared.

With these figures, on average it still takes 3 turns (3 straights) to unjam, but you could unjam in one turn, or need 4+ turns. Naturally, the Albatross D.V/Va series would then unjam on 1-3 vice 1-2, and Schwarzlose equipped planes would only unjam on a 1.

I wouldn't use this procedure for reloading Lewis/Parabellum guns however.


Now you have me rethinking of adding dice to all aspects of the game!

[macka321]

We have been using limited ammo for a long time now and it gives the game a better feel. Pilots now think about firing at long range and try to tail. We use the 5 rounds for new pilots, 6 rounds for 5 plus missions and 7 rounds for aces. Cards come from the deck but we have ammo counters.

[john snelling]

I plan on posting my "Advanced Rules" - complete with player aid charts, once I transfer everything to a .pdf file. These advanced rules were created to:
- increase realism
- not bog down the game
- not change basic game mechanics

These rules are now standard in my games. You will need a six-sided die and pencil and a pad of paper to record the following; one person on each team can record the ammo counts of a dozen aircraft with ease.

Firing Guns
Regarding guns and bullets, historically the Lewis gun had a 97-round magazine (we'll say 100) while the Spandau had 500 and the others (ie Vickers, Schwarzlose 400). Parabellum treated same as Lewis. Rates of Fire for each gun were close so this factor becomes negligable. Thus the ammo counts for each gun are:
- Spandau 25
- Vickers 20
- Schwartlose 15
- Lewis 5
A long range shot use 2 ammo counts, short range uses 1 ammo counts. Thus the Lewis can only fire three times (2.5 rounded up) at long range, or 5 times at short range, or a combination. Once ammo is depleted it is gone, but Lewis and Parabellum guns can reload. Each pilot has an initial load plus 2 reloads (15 counts); rear gunner has initial plus 4 reloads.

Reloading and Unjamming
Green jam card jams one gun (ie half of a twin-barrelled Spandau); red card jams all firing guns. A partially jammed Spandau (or Vickers or SE5a mixed weaponry) can still fire, but as "B" damage instead of "A" damage. Gun jam counter for a pilot is only removed if:
- plane is not on fire
- plane flies straight maneouver that is not part of immelman or overdive
- pilot not involved in shooting or reloading
Reloading follows similar procedure with respect to plane on fire and plane flying a true straight maneouver. Only one barrel/gun can be unjammed at a time. If the SE5a Vickers/Lewis gun suffers a partial jam, roll the 1D6 die: 1-3 = Lewis; 4-6 = Vickers.

Sounds complicated, but it's not.

On top of this, I add historical airframe realism:
- Nieuport 11 and Fokker A.III receive four gun jam counters instead of three (no Foster or other mount to help pilot access gun)
- Schwarzlose equipped Albatross D.III and Aviatik D.1 receive one permanently jammed barrel if a red gun jam card is drawn, non-Schwarzlose planes are not affected (I have another chart showing aircraft availability and selection)
- Pflaz D.III cannot unjam (it couldn't due to pilot inaccessibility; but problem was rectified with D.IIIa variant)
- Albatross D.V and D.Va only get 2 jam counters - these aircraft had a forced trim on the control stick which centered it, arguably making it easier for a pilot to focus attention on other matters (such as unjamming)

Again everything is simpler and at your fingertips with the playaids - all of which fit into a box set without bending.

Tried it Thursday night and had a blast. It really evens out 2 seaters vs single seaters. If anyone is thinking about using this mod go ahead you will not be disappointed! Great idea and will be playing this mod with all my games. John

[PKHansma]

I plan on posting my "Advanced Rules" - complete with player aid charts, once I transfer everything to a .pdf file. These advanced rules were created to:
- increase realism
- not bog down the game
- not change basic game mechanics

These rules are now standard in my games. You will need a six-sided die and pencil and a pad of paper to record the following; one person on each team can record the ammo counts of a dozen aircraft with ease.

Firing Guns
Regarding guns and bullets, historically the Lewis gun had a 97-round magazine (we'll say 100) while the Spandau had 500 and the others (ie Vickers, Schwarzlose 400). Parabellum treated same as Lewis. Rates of Fire for each gun were close so this factor becomes negligable. Thus the ammo counts for each gun are:
- Spandau 25
- Vickers 20
- Schwartlose 15
- Lewis 5
A long range shot use 2 ammo counts, short range uses 1 ammo counts. Thus the Lewis can only fire three times (2.5 rounded up) at long range, or 5 times at short range, or a combination. Once ammo is depleted it is gone, but Lewis and Parabellum guns can reload. Each pilot has an initial load plus 2 reloads (15 counts); rear gunner has initial plus 4 reloads.

Reloading and Unjamming
Green jam card jams one gun (ie half of a twin-barrelled Spandau); red card jams all firing guns. A partially jammed Spandau (or Vickers or SE5a mixed weaponry) can still fire, but as "B" damage instead of "A" damage. Gun jam counter for a pilot is only removed if:
- plane is not on fire
- plane flies straight maneouver that is not part of immelman or overdive
- pilot not involved in shooting or reloading
Reloading follows similar procedure with respect to plane on fire and plane flying a true straight maneouver. Only one barrel/gun can be unjammed at a time. If the SE5a Vickers/Lewis gun suffers a partial jam, roll the 1D6 die: 1-3 = Lewis; 4-6 = Vickers.

Sounds complicated, but it's not.

On top of this, I add historical airframe realism:
- Nieuport 11 and Fokker A.III receive four gun jam counters instead of three (no Foster or other mount to help pilot access gun)
- Schwarzlose equipped Albatross D.III and Aviatik D.1 receive one permanently jammed barrel if a red gun jam card is drawn, non-Schwarzlose planes are not affected (I have another chart showing aircraft availability and selection)
- Pflaz D.III cannot unjam (it couldn't due to pilot inaccessibility; but problem was rectified with D.IIIa variant)
- Albatross D.V and D.Va only get 2 jam counters - these aircraft had a forced trim on the control stick which centered it, arguably making it easier for a pilot to focus attention on other matters (such as unjamming)

Again everything is simpler and at your fingertips with the playaids - all of which fit into a box set without bending.

Great rules.

I like the idea of using counters for shots or better yet, bursts of fire. Using cards for shots or bursts could give an unfair advantage or disadvantage. One plane could get all 0’s and another gets 4’s and 5’s. Keeping the damage cards in a pile/stack gives everyone the same chance at all values.

I think bursts of fire make more sense than shots. I would think 10 to 15 rounds would make good burst of fire. A pilot would get X number of bursts per flight based on the historic capacity of the guns mounted. Reloads could have the same number of bursts or less again based on historic values.

When firing, a pilot could take one or two bursts per gun, three if tailing. For drawing damage cards follow all the original rules, except insert burst of fire for shots.

The trick now would be to come up with enough counts to represent the “bursts of fire”.

[Walt Powell]

Col Hajj: Did you ever look into this further after this thread? Is it worth my time too consider that ammo stocl on board varied from plae to plane (so 8 or 10 for everyone may not be fair or accurate), or did you find that it's fine as is? Walt

[MayorJim]

This was a well thought out/researched "mod" for the game...but way to much more complication to add for my taste...I'm lucky to remember if I'm tailing anyone!