Jammed Guns: the reality of it all

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

This quote is taken from the Osprey Book: Jagdstafel2 'Boelcke' Von Richtofen's Mentor.
Page 14; Para 6:
"I engaged one of the latter and pranced about the air with him - he escaped me for a moment, but I got to grips with him again west of Bapaume - one of my guns jammed, but the other shot all the better. I shot up the monoplane from close range until he broke up in flames and fell in fragments into the woods near Grevillers".

A report by none other than Oswald Boelcke on his 28th kill on 19th September 1916 of a Morane monoplane from No 60 Sqn. Boelcke was flying a Albatross DII, newly arrived.

No better way to confirm the jamming of a single gun and its effect.

[OldGuy59]

OK!
Now I know what to expect in our Skype games, Neil.

Nonetheless, thanks for posting this. It should put paid to the ongoing discussion on whether an A plane can keep firing with one gun (with B damage cards, I suspect). Clearing the jam, and how that would work? I like the suggestion that no firing while clearing the jam counters is a good rule. So, three consecutive maneuvers without firing to get the A damage cards back.

Mike

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Yep, that's what I would go with. A jammed gun card (any) jams a single gun. So those with 2 guns could still fire 1 using a B damage deck. If they tried to un-jam their guns then they could not fire. Their should be no difficulty with a AB gun (front firing) as these have different decks. An AA front firing would then revert to AB. There would be no worries with a 2 seater, just apply the rule with a touch of common sense.

[Doug]

Sounds good to me!

[BobP]

I have a book KNIGHT OF GERMANY and he writes the same thing on page 242.I did a review of this book and it is a daily account of his actions. Letters to home and other accounts. It is a good read and worth picking up.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

I'll have to look for that one. Could you PM me the ISBN number?

I have a book KNIGHT OF GERMANY and he writes the same thing on page 242.I did a review of this book and it is a daily account of his actions. Letters to home and other accounts. It is a good read and worth picking up.

[csadn]

No better way to confirm the jamming of a single gun and its effect.

This leads back to the other discussion of gun-mount weights and such -- the exact mechanical function of the mounts; were all of them designed so that one gun remained functional if the other failed?

[somaliavet]

The guns themselves were separate of each other mechanically, so yes I would imagine that each had its own interrupter gear. The prop could be clear of one barrel while being in front the other.

[gully_raker]

Yes I like the option of firing a B gun & forgoing loosing a Jam Marker.
Take advantage of your position or unjam.
Similarly I like the idea of the SE 5a fireing 2 X B guns & Jaming one if you draw the Jam card. In reality that is what SE 5a pilots did until they could exit the fight especially if it was the Lewis that jammed.

[Oberst Hajj]

Moved to the House Rules section with all the other A to B Jammed threads.

I think this is a fine house rule and could have even made a great official optional rule. I do however, think the way it is written works just fine for the simplified game play that was Andrea's goal. Also remember, at the time of the writing of the rules, there were no B guns or damage deck yet

[john snelling]

That is the way I've always played when the B deck came out.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Looks as if we have a consensus then chaps! Or do we?

I must say that I will include this rule in all my games from now onward.
Rob.

[gully_raker]

All in Favour raise their right arm!

[Doug]

Seconded.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Thirded. Play it all the time now.

[Пилот]

Sounds fine, but it rises the question:

What if A-reduced-to-B suffers new jamming? Should it then take 6 maneuvers to restore it's A fire (3 to B, and new 3 to A), or 3 maneuvers should be enough?

[OldGuy59]

Now you are getting nasty.
On a synched set of guns, if the cocking lever is joint, then the jam will clear in one attempt, if at all.

If you have two separate guns, they need two separate attempts to clear. And this doesn't take into consideration "Hard Extraction" jams, which may not be clear-able while in the air.

The game is simple, guys. There isn't a card for a blocked barrel, where the barrel explodes the next time you try to fire, either.

The same with "Rudder Jams". They add a little realism, not everything. How about cut aileron or elevator control wires? Where are they in this mix? How real is an engine malfunction that only causes a stall a turn? I like that the game mechanics are really stripped down, but there are a few bits that add a little tension, without cocking up the game too much, or drowning you in details. Realism is compromised, sometimes extremely. But it is a ball to play!

My two cents.

Mike

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I agree Mike.
The stall card can be read as just a general reduction in speed over the turn, but even that can be advantagous if you play it right. I often use a stall if I think I can get an extra shot off at a passing aircraft. So if you play an enforced stall in the right place it can be a help.
All these annomalies add up to a good game. Apart from the chance element in the cards, your plane is as good as you are at flying it. if we want absolute accuracy in every aspect of the game maybe we are just playing the wrong game.
Rob.

[john snelling]

The same with "Rudder Jams". They add a little realism, not everything. How about cut aileron or elevator control wires? Where are they in this mix? How real is an engine malfunction that only causes a stall a turn? I like that the game mechanics are really stripped down, but there are a few bits that add a little tension, without cocking up the game too much, or drowning you in details. Realism is compromised, sometimes extremely. But it is a ball to play!
Mike

Rudder jams: You take out a random card(s) from your deck and keep it out. I say you get a right jammed rudder damage 2. At the beginning of you next turn shuffle your deck take out the first 2 right turns that come up. Look at the direction arrows. Keep them out for the rest of the game. No gremlins come out and fix your plane.

[OldGuy59]

Rudder jams: You take out a random card(s) from your deck and keep it out. I say you get a right jammed rudder damage 2. At the beginning of you next turn shuffle your deck take out the first 2 right turns that come up. Look at the direction arrows. Keep them out for the rest of the game. No gremlins come out and fix your plane.

Yeah. I don't like that at all.

Why did the rudder jam? Debris somewhere along the cable run? Something stuck in the hinge point? Judicious wiggling might clear the obstruction, or jam it more solidly. Is the rudder jammed in the "straight" position? Or is it jammed in a turn position? How about a cut rudder cable? Even if the rudder cables are cut, turns are possible using ailerons and elevators, just not sharp turns. Hmmmm... Engine torque might allow some leeway, though. Is this getting too complicated?

So, back to the realism quotient. I think the compromise rule of loosing turns after two similar special hits might be acceptable, and there aren't any helpful gremlins involved in "clearing a jam". The game simplifies it all for us.

So, another two cents. This is gonna get expensive!

Mike:-)

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Already play this one. Its fast and easy to use. No counters to worry about just remove the cards from the deck.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Yes I used it for the latest "Over the Trenches" mission.
Liked it a lot.
Rob.

[Пилот]

"There isn't a card for a blocked barrel, where the barrel explodes the next time you try to fire, either."
Well, you could say it's a Boom card...

Basically, I tend to keep game simple, and I know simplicity sometimes collides with real-life situations. Maybe some kind of "medium critical damage" card, combined (or not)* with other cards could cover such unrepairable-in-air damage. And add that kind of realism.

*Or, to create "major damage" deck used after Boom card - which could include "incapacitated rudder for the rest of the game", "gun jammed for the rest of the game", "fuel leak" (or "forced crash landing"), "shut down" etc. cards?

[OldGuy59]

"There isn't a card for a blocked barrel, where the barrel explodes the next time you try to fire, either."
Well, you could say it's a Boom card...

Basically, I tend to keep game simple, and I know simplicity sometimes collides with real-life situations. Maybe some kind of "medium critical damage" card, combined (or not)* with other cards could cover such unrepairable-in-air damage. And add that kind of realism.

*Or, to create "major damage" deck used after Boom card - which could include "incapacitated rudder for the rest of the game", "gun jammed for the rest of the game", "fuel leak" (or "forced crash landing"), "shut down" etc. cards?

Heмaњa,
Yeah! What you said! I like the simplicity, not so much the Boom card.

But considering that these aircraft had all sorts of nasty things that could go wrong, perhaps the "Catastrophic Damage" option for the Boom card is a nice alternative. Permanently jammed guns in the middle of a fight could be almost as lethal as an instant explosion. Likewise an uncontrolled, flapping rudder, or a fuel leak, engine quits, etc... All of these things are not in the game, but are potential "fatal" events. It just gives the "pilot" a chance to run for home, or get the plane on the ground before something worse happens. And the odds of them happening might be similar to a Boom card being turned up.

So, rudder jams would be temporary obstructions, but a Boom which results in a permanently busted rudder, or other "fight-ending" malfunction (rather than an instant death) would be an option I could "live" with. Some realism, but simple.

Mike

[fast.git]

But considering that these aircraft had all sorts of nasty things that could go wrong, perhaps the "Catastrophic Damage" option for the Boom card is a nice alternative.

That's how I interpret the "Boom" card... catastrophic damage of some sort. Love the critical hit deck found here: http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...do=file&id=409. We're using it in the "Final Months" extension of the Over the Trenches solo campaign.

[Пилот]

Sounds interesting, but yet leaves good chance to be killed on the spot. Maybe (just maybe) more "surviver" cards should be added. Or even "lucky ones" which just revert you to some kind of (maybe longer lasting) but controllable damage.

I am not sure what was real life opportunity to be killed immediately, but cca. 3 % seems me a bit too much (and yet, I may be wrong).

[Hunter]

Now you are getting nasty.
On a synched set of guns, if the cocking lever is joint, then the jam will clear in one attempt, if at all.

If you have two separate guns, they need two separate attempts to clear. And this doesn't take into consideration "Hard Extraction" jams, which may not be clear-able while in the air.

The game is simple, guys. There isn't a card for a blocked barrel, where the barrel explodes the next time you try to fire, either.

The same with "Rudder Jams". They add a little realism, not everything. How about cut aileron or elevator control wires? Where are they in this mix? How real is an engine malfunction that only causes a stall a turn? I like that the game mechanics are really stripped down, but there are a few bits that add a little tension, without cocking up the game too much, or drowning you in details. Realism is compromised, sometimes extremely. But it is a ball to play!

My two cents.

Mike

I agree with Mike! Now, does anybody have any aspirin for this headache I just got?

[somaliavet]

But we haven't even covered the inability to clear jams in the Pfalz D.III due to gun placement! Waiter, a round of aspirin and strong coffee for everyone!

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Everybody can decide wether to include or not, make the game as complicated as they wish. Suggestions are being put forward for all kinds of ways to enhance the game. I included the excerpt from Boelcke just as evidence that both guns may be considered separate for jamming purposes. Again it is up to individuals/groups/clubs to decide what level of complexity should be added to games. Probably these rule additions, if accepted, could be put in as optional rules.

[Jager]

Remember there were different mechinisms for syncronized and interrupter MG firing.
Were the Entente systems also gun-independent, too?
Karl

[john snelling]

Some of the A-H fighters have the same cannot clear jams. If you have 2 jams you got to fly off the board to get repaired. With the A-H fighters up against single gun Italians it makes the most interesting scenarios. Albatros D.III's with 2 guns verses a Spad 7 with 1 gun. At first the Albatros has the edge after 1 jam the Spad has the advantage. I like the scenario and play it all the time.