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Thread: Point system for Wings of Glory

  1. #551

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Halb D.III only had a single gun; Halb CL.II also just B/B; Climb & ceilings found in unofficial stats here in the files SS D.IV is 2/17; SS D.I is 4/11; DFW V is 5/11.
    A mechanic at Jasta 4 fitted a second machine gun to at least 3 Halberstadt D.IIIs (possibly more) - card already provided by 'Nexus' in the "Immelmann" booster but erroneously marked "Jasta Boelcke"

    Some Halberstadt CL.IIIs had a second Parabellum MG on their rear gun ring (B/A configuration) - Jasta 15 had one as its "hack".
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  2. #552

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Halb D.III only had a single gun; Halb CL.II also just B/B; Climb & ceilings found in unofficial stats here in the files SS D.IV is 2/17; SS D.I is 4/11; DFW V is 5/11.
    Both Halberstadt D.III and CL.II were released with those stats on cards (booster packs). I take is as official releases. For now, i need official releases only for my app, but thank you for the link.

  3. #553

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    Halberstadt D.V - almost identical externally to a D.III - had 1 MG as standard in German service, but many Turkish ones had 2, straight from the factory.

  4. #554

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    Halbestadt D.III fire B 60
    Halbestadt D.III fire A 80

    Siemens-Schuckert D.I Climb 4 Ceiling 11
    Siemens-Schuckert D.IV Climb 2 Ceiling 17
    These were already among official ones, downloadable here:
    https://www.aresgames.eu/12022

    For climb, look for planes with similar minutes to given height data.
    For ceiling, round up max climb in meters to next 500, divide by 500 and add 1. So 4.800 meters for SS D.I become 5000, 500:500=10, 10+1=11.
    To upgrade a standard front or standard rear B machinegun to A, add 20 points (different costs for non-standard MGs).

    DFW has never been released.
    Last edited by Angiolillo; 03-01-2020 at 10:26.

  5. #555

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Some Halberstadt CL.IIIs had a second Parabellum MG on their rear gun ring (B/A configuration) - Jasta 15 had one as its "hack".
    Windsock Dartafile 27 at page 30 also has photos of a Cl.II with twin machineguns in front - but caption says it has been tested at the factory only, no records of use at the front.

    Among the many, many, many, many mistakes of the last Blue Max edition, all Halberstadt have twin Spandau machineguns in front, and Collishaw's Sopwith Triplane N533 Black Maria has only a single machinegun.

  6. #556

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    I have added all the point-values from the first page to the Wings of Linen Wiki.

  7. #557

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    Breguet XIV A2 B/B 94
    Breguet XIV A2 B/A 114
    Breguet XIV A2 A/A 134

    I can find only two official Breguets 14 A2. One is the recently released mini, and one is a promo card from Top Fighters booster pack. They are both B/A. Where are those other two from?

  8. #558

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    Series IV "Nexus"

    American B/A
    French B/B
    French A/A
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  9. #559

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Helmut View Post
    Series IV "Nexus"

    American B/A
    French B/B
    French A/A
    They are all B2. I am talking about A2

  10. #560

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    Well, it can be that I directly put all combinations even if unpublished, so that you can make variants in your scenarios.

  11. #561

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Windsock Dartafile 27 at page 30 also has photos of a Cl.II with twin machineguns in front - but caption says it has been tested at the factory only, no records of use at the front.

    Among the many, many, many, many mistakes of the last Blue Max edition, all Halberstadt have twin Spandau machineguns in front, and Collishaw's Sopwith Triplane N533 Black Maria has only a single machinegun.
    Interesting that Collishaw's biography has him describing fllying a twin-gunned Triplane. He flew several single-gunned Triplanes, as he was shot down a few times, including having his control stick shot off at the base, and having no aileron/elevator controls until he crash landed the plane near the Allied trench-lines (N5490, 9 June, 1917). That plane was a write-off.

    In the book, "Raymond Collishaw and the Black Flight", pg 141, Collishaw was recorded as receiving Triplane No. 533 on 24 July. On 28 July, Flt Sub-Lieut Alfred ' Nick' Williams Carter supposedly received No. 536, another twin-gunned Triplane. Collishaw left No. 10 Squadron RNAS on 3 August, 1917, going home to Canada on leave. During the weeks of 24 July to 3 August, he claimed two victories, flying No. 533 (both on 27 July in the same mission).

    As an aside, Collishaw did record many instances where he had issues with jammed guns during his Triplane flights. Usually, he headed for home promptly. He also stated in this book, that on 26 July, he tested his guns before flying into a fight, only to find both guns jammed. The rest of the Black Flight went into the battle, but Collishaw headed home on that day.

    PS: My repaint of Collishaw's single-gun Triplane was N5492, Collishaw having flown it from 10 June to 23 July, during which he claimed 18 victories.
    Last edited by OldGuy59; 03-03-2020 at 00:53.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  12. #562

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    Andrea: SPAD VII with 37mm cannon
    Could you create some stats for it please? I remember you tested the rules long time ago.
    The cannon was shooting C, then there was a standard gun (B?) ...

  13. #563

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    The stats exist for the SPAD XII in the unofficial stats doc - You'll just need a point value for it.
    SPAD XII - France - 17 Q1 / 18 Q4 - S deck - Guns B+C - damage 16 - Max Alt 12 - climb 3 ? - 1x 37mm Cannon, 1x Vickers MG

    "He is wise who watches"

  14. #564

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    Nieuport 21 (Watch Your Back) needs points.

  15. #565

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    The stats exist for the SPAD XII in the unofficial stats doc - You'll just need a point value for it.
    SPAD XII - France - 17 Q1 / 18 Q4 - S deck - Guns B+C - damage 16 - Max Alt 12 - climb 3 ? - 1x 37mm Cannon, 1x Vickers MG
    Being that this plane, well the card, anyway (with a stand-in SPAD VII), appears on my Tripod table quite often...

    I haven't figured points in any Tripod games, but perhaps I should look at that.

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    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  16. #566

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    Salmson 2 - this card has official Climb, Ceiling stats, but doesn't have points. Has it been officially released (as a card)?

  17. #567

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honza View Post
    Salmson 2 - this card has official Climb, Ceiling stats, but doesn't have points. Has it been officially released (as a card)?
    As far as I know it only exists as a Stats Committee project, I don't recall there ever being a card issued in the old Nexus box-sets.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  18. #568

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    So here is what i miss

    Nieuport 21 - points

    Pomilio PC - points
    SAML S.2 - points
    Both Italians with and without the front gun.

  19. #569

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honza View Post
    Salmson 2 - ... Has it been officially released (as a card)?
    No, it's not in the complete contents doc.

    "He is wise who watches"

  20. #570

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honza View Post
    So here is what i miss

    Nieuport 21 - points

    Pomilio PC - points
    SAML S.2 - points
    Both Italians with and without the front gun.
    List updated!

    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Honza
    Salmson 2 - ... Has it been officially released (as a card)?
    No, it's not in the complete contents doc.
    Yes, it is in the Wings of War - Crossfire pack.
    Three of them, and if I recall well maybe one with no front machinegun (documented in photos - maybe a temporary situation to make it lighter or for lack of spare parts).

    Here the list:
    https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/463...lots-crossfire

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  21. #571

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    Andrea thank you for updating the list, i suppose Saml S.2 with no front gun is 59 points (it says 559).

  22. #572

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    Yes, sorry. Corrected!

  23. #573

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    ....Yes, it is in the Wings of War - Crossfire pack.
    Except that's a SAML S.2 Andrea, not a Salmson 2 ...

    "He is wise who watches"

  24. #574

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    Was Phonix C.I ever released?
    Last edited by Honza; 03-30-2020 at 01:42.

  25. #575

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    Only as a card Jan.

    "He is wise who watches"

  26. #576

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    I've been reading Bloody Paralyser: the Giant Handley Page Bombers of the First World War by Rob Langham, and it appears to me that the rear guns on the Handley-Page O/100 and O/400 were always single-mounted Lewis guns on pillar mounts (one right and one left), and there is a ventral gun that can fire through a small trap door, with all of those options operated by a single gunner. So, while there were three guns in the rear, it looks to me like only one of them would be firing at a time, which means only A/B and B/B would be valid. Was there a variant or experimental mount of twin-yoked guns in the rear?

    Interesting side note: while airborne Lewis guns usually dispensed with cooling jackets, since they could count on the slipstream for cooling, the ventral gun retained its jacket since it was well-sheltered in the confines of the fuselage.

    Postscript: I found a good illustration on the Rise Of Flight site: https://riseofflight.com/store/aircr...ey-page-0-400/, cockpit C at the bottom.
    Last edited by ReducedAirFact; 05-01-2020 at 07:50.

  27. #577

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    That is right though the HP O/400 could have a five man crew, 2 pilots, a gunner up front & a pair in the back.

    https://www.tangmere-museum.org.uk/a...dley-page-o400

    "He is wise who watches"

  28. #578

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    Phönix C.I needs points please

  29. #579

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    I'm gonna blame my old eyes, but I can't find the point value for the Sneak Attack skill. Can anyone else tell me what that skill is worth?

    BTW: IIRC, this was Albert Ball's choice of attack, whenever he could sneak up on an unsuspecting enemy plane. He would use it in any plane he flew, if it had the Foster-mounted Higher MG (Ni.11, Ni17, and SE5).
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  30. #580


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    Any estimates for the Martian Tripods?

  31. #581


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    After playing today I am making the following estimates: Locust 135, Scarab 180, Squid 115, Cuttlefish 170.
    We plan to test at these points using assuming 2 planes vs 1 walker and 3-4 planes vs 2 walkers.

  32. #582

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honza View Post
    Phönix C.I needs points please
    87

  33. #583

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    I'm gonna blame my old eyes, but I can't find the point value for the Sneak Attack skill. Can anyone else tell me what that skill is worth?
    I'd say 7.

  34. #584

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    I'm working on a roster builder and I was curious about how the point values are derived. I can use static points but since I'm building in the capability for my tool to handle calculating asset point values from stats, I thought this would be a good test of its capabilities.

    I saw a spreadsheet from Popsical a couple pages back, but I had some questions about his methods, since no formulas seem to be in the sheet, and he hasn't been active on here in three years.

    @Angiolillo, would you be willing to share your formula?

  35. #585

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    Flew a campaign mission today.

    As the attacker, I was to bomb a target, photograph the damage, and get the photo back home. The defender was supposed to deny me anything he could. Mission date of the campaign was 11 April, 1916. I threw together planes from what I had, with the attacker using two Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutters and a Nieuport 11 for me, and 4 Halberstadt D.IIIs for the defender. When we calculated the points for the two sides, adding in Ace Skills, (Acrobatic Pilot for my escort Ni.11, Perfect Aim on one of my bomber pilots, and the German side having Weapon Specialist for one of his planes), the sides were pretty even. I was at 238, and the Germans were 245.

    I totally failed the mission, lost one bomber and crew shot down in flames, but I cleared the skies of opposition. My opponent drew the Boom Card three times (half damage, but still!). I flew home with a badly shot up Ni.11, and a burnt and collanderized bomber, both with injured crew. All the German pilots survived , with only one able to fly immediately.

    I'd like to say it was my flying skill, but it really was the damage draws that saved me. Turn two had my Ni.11 hit broadside by three Halbs, drawing five damage cards. I recived two (yes, 2) total damage. Points are a nice guide, but not the whole story.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  36. #586

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    Well yes, randomness has a good part in this game. As in real life, by the way. Last battle report I read, just as an example, was the story of a Skua shooting down a He.111 over Norway in 1940 and being forced to land by a lucky shot of the German tail gunner with a bullet severing a pipe - then the two crews shared the same hut in the snowy middle of nowhere. Exactly the kind of effects that we collectively gathered in the "explosion" card/chit. This kind of "instant elimination" happened quite often, alas.
    The points system aims to give a quite balanced start to a situation, then skill and luck are both very important to give the result of the match. If you want more skill than luck, avoid damage cards and give 3 damages instead than each A card, 2 damages instead than a B card. No special damages. More skill oriented, less realistic, I don't know if more or less fun - that's a matter of tastes. Let's say that it is has been used as a good tournament option (damage points can then also be part of the tournament score).
    The point system is good for dogfights. It also give a good basis for other scenarios such as bombing, photo recon and so on, but then several more factors are at play in determining chances of success - number of planes able to accomplish the mission, numbers and positions of targets, distances, and so on.

  37. #587

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Well yes, randomness has a good part in this game. As in real life, by the way. Last battle report I read, just as an example, was the story of a Skua shooting down a He.111 over Norway in 1940 and being forced to land by a lucky shot of the German tail gunner with a bullet severing a pipe - then the two crews shared the same hut in the snowy middle of nowhere. Exactly the kind of effects that we collectively gathered in the "explosion" card/chit. This kind of "instant elimination" happened quite often, alas.
    The points system aims to give a quite balanced start to a situation, then skill and luck are both very important to give the result of the match. If you want more skill than luck, avoid damage cards and give 3 damages instead than each A card, 2 damages instead than a B card. No special damages. More skill oriented, less realistic, I don't know if more or less fun - that's a matter of tastes. Let's say that it is has been used as a good tournament option (damage points can then also be part of the tournament score).
    The point system is good for dogfights. It also give a good basis for other scenarios such as bombing, photo recon and so on, but then several more factors are at play in determining chances of success - number of planes able to accomplish the mission, numbers and positions of targets, distances, and so on.
    Being locked up and separated from fellow players has done nothing good for my flying skills in the above game. I had three chances to hit a target with bombs, and knew I'd overshoot if I dropped. So, I was in the process of circling back to try a fourth time when my bomber went down in flames. The mission was a loss then, and I headed home. But, I managed to take out the chasing planes before I left.

    If my Nieuport would have taken five '2 Point' hits in Turn 2, that would have been the end of the escort, right there. Much different game, I think. At least two German planes would have survived, and mine would have all gone down before I managed to complete the mission.

    The balance was there at the start. After that, it was up to skill and luck. For me, I was lucky, not skilled. It was an intense and fun game, despite the carnage.
    Mike
    "Flying is learning to throw yourself at the ground and miss" Douglas Adams
    "Wings of Glory won't skin your elbows and knees while practicing." OldGuy59

  38. #588

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGuy59 View Post
    It was an intense and fun game, despite the carnage.
    Result!

    That's what we all hope for...
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  39. #589

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Well yes, randomness has a good part in this game.
    Well said!

  40. #590

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    Quote Originally Posted by zenlizard View Post
    Well said!


    i dont know. the endless flow of boom cards i endured at origins 2018 didnt feel very random lol.

  41. #591

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Well yes, randomness has a good part in this game. As in real life, by the way. Last battle report I read, just as an example, was the story of a Skua shooting down a He.111 over Norway in 1940 and being forced to land by a lucky shot of the German tail gunner with a bullet severing a pipe - then the two crews shared the same hut in the snowy middle of nowhere. Exactly the kind of effects that we collectively gathered in the "explosion" card/chit. This kind of "instant elimination" happened quite often, alas.
    The points system aims to give a quite balanced start to a situation, then skill and luck are both very important to give the result of the match. If you want more skill than luck, avoid damage cards and give 3 damages instead than each A card, 2 damages instead than a B card. No special damages. More skill oriented, less realistic, I don't know if more or less fun - that's a matter of tastes. Let's say that it is has been used as a good tournament option (damage points can then also be part of the tournament score).
    The point system is good for dogfights. It also give a good basis for other scenarios such as bombing, photo recon and so on, but then several more factors are at play in determining chances of success - number of planes able to accomplish the mission, numbers and positions of targets, distances, and so on.



    most definitely. this is the only game i can think of where the card deck being used actually works well as a balancing factor instead of the other way around. i usually avoid card driven games like the plague as ive endured a lot of silly random situations that erased any attempt by me of strategy (for instance playing a card based naval warfare game i never got a single shot because my ship only stocked 11 and 5 inch shells for my 10 inch guns. not 1 single shot!).
    i recall that story about the skua and he111. if i remember correctly the town near there built a replica of a downed he111 to commemorate the event.

  42. #592

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    most definitely. this is the only game i can think of where the card deck being used actually works well as a balancing factor instead of the other way around. i usually avoid card driven games like the plague as ive endured a lot of silly random situations that erased any attempt by me of strategy (for instance playing a card based naval warfare game i never got a single shot because my ship only stocked 11 and 5 inch shells for my 10 inch guns. not 1 single shot!).
    event.
    In a game where skill and luck are well balanced better strategies will win more often than poor strategies. This does not mean that they will always win. When considering only a single run, however, probabilities play a greater role and may disrupt any perfect strategy. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. I suspect in the game you mention, the luck factor was annoyingly too high (or maybe you did not play often enough?).

  43. #593

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    Quote Originally Posted by hokusai View Post
    In a game where skill and luck are well balanced better strategies will win more often than poor strategies. This does not mean that they will always win. When considering only a single run, however, probabilities play a greater role and may disrupt any perfect strategy. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. I suspect in the game you mention, the luck factor was annoyingly too high (or maybe you did not play often enough?).



    luck factor was definitely annoyingly high. basically you randomly drew your ships (ie random weaponry). and then randomly drew ammunition for said ships with no guarantee of drawing anything usable for your ship. no ammo no shooty, shooty, while your opponents blast away at you. after continually drawing the wrong ammo, it gets pretty old pretty quick. played it quite a number of times as it was a favorite filler game of our game club at the time.

    bad luck drawing cards seems to be a theme for me. when i dabbled with magic the gathering several times i drew into untenable situations that long term players said theyd never seen before. of course in one early came my opponent who was "mentoring" "conveniently" neglected to mention the mulligan option of reshuffling and redrawing. in one game where i did know of the mulligan, i went from one extreme situation to the other. having endured many similar situations in other card driven games i, not suprisingly, developed a dislike for the mechanic.

    the issue even occasionally dogs me in wings. see origins 2018 where in the around 12 games i played, i drew the boom card somewhere around 16-18, times including 4 times in one game! the one game where i didnt draw the boom card i drew simultaneous pilot hits. what can men do against such hate....ful luck?

  44. #594

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    the issue even occasionally dogs me in wings. see origins 2018 where in the around 12 games i played, i drew the boom card somewhere around 16-18, times including 4 times in one game! the one game where i didnt draw the boom card i drew simultaneous pilot hits. what can men do against such hate....ful luck?
    Reminiscent of my Axis & Allies: War at Sea days... torpedoes bypass all armor ratings and go straight to Hull Damage but ONLY hit on a 6, and I couldn't roll a six if it'd save my arse even throwing a dozen dice at a time. Needless to say, submarines were not normally part of my fleets and I pretty much only used torpedo bombers for ASW... most of my typical damage points came from throwing insane amounts of battleship Gunnery or SBD/SB2C Bomb dice.
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  45. #595

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Well yes, randomness has a good part in this game. As in real life, by the way. Last battle report I read, just as an example, was the story of a Skua shooting down a He.111 over Norway in 1940 and being forced to land by a lucky shot of the German tail gunner with a bullet severing a pipe - then the two crews shared the same hut in the snowy middle of nowhere. Exactly the kind of effects that we collectively gathered in the "explosion" card/chit. This kind of "instant elimination" happened quite often, alas.
    The points system aims to give a quite balanced start to a situation, then skill and luck are both very important to give the result of the match. If you want more skill than luck, avoid damage cards and give 3 damages instead than each A card, 2 damages instead than a B card. No special damages. More skill oriented, less realistic, I don't know if more or less fun - that's a matter of tastes. Let's say that it is has been used as a good tournament option (damage points can then also be part of the tournament score).
    The point system is good for dogfights. It also give a good basis for other scenarios such as bombing, photo recon and so on, but then several more factors are at play in determining chances of success - number of planes able to accomplish the mission, numbers and positions of targets, distances, and so on.
    As an aside, this ties in to something my college mentor the retired fighter pilot shared about what they called "Golden BB Theory" back in Nam. The reference being to the fact that all it takes is ONE very small projectile in the right place to kill a multimillion dollar jet, as illustrated by the death of Morg McPherson in Flight of the Intruder's opening scene. LTC N. and his crowd typically described it as, "Somewhere, each of us has a bullet out there with our name on it, and if that specific bullet is fired it's Your Time and it will come all the way around the world to get you if it has to... but until then, you have to operate on the assumption that you're unstoppable to be a good fighter pilot." (He got a laugh out of my response in pointing out "it's not the one with my name on it that worries me, it's the ones addressed 'General Delivery, To Whom It May Concern!'")
    Historical Consultant/Researcher, Wings and Sails lines - Unless stated otherwise, all comments are personal opinion only and NOT official Ares policy.
    Wings Checklists: WWI (down Navarre Nieuport, Ares Drachens) | WWII (complete)

  46. #596

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    Quote Originally Posted by milcoll73 View Post
    the issue even occasionally dogs me in wings. see origins 2018 where in the around 12 games i played, i drew the boom card somewhere around 16-18, times including 4 times in one game! the one game where i didnt draw the boom card i drew simultaneous pilot hits. what can men do against such hate....ful luck?
    At least you can have our appreciation for taking the hit(s) for us

    Karl
    It is impossible for a man to begin to learn what he thinks he knows. -- Epictetus

  47. #597

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    Phillip, your 2018 ORIGINS run was EPIC!

  48. #598

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    I've been away from here for a long time. Good to know that WoW still lives on. Lots of new stuff to play. Glad to know that.

  49. #599

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    I took a 6 years break, and came back just to where i had left.

  50. #600

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    Ciao Andrea,
    thanks for the table!

    How do i add the rockets and bombs value to the planes? Is there a separate points table?

    Any chance for the MK Tripods values?

    Many thanks!

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