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Thread: Point system for Wings of Glory

  1. #501

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    The DH2 was particularly prone to engine problems, and this may have lead directly to the death of Hawker; he was only on that last flight as a fill-in for another machine which had a dud engine, and another member of the flight turned back early with engine trouble, leaving Hawker and Andrews short of companions for the scrap with MvR.
    I laugh in the face of danger - then I hide until it goes away!

  2. #502

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    Andrea,

    could you post the formula of how you are making point values? I walked through the topic and I found none of yours.

  3. #503

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    Ciao,
    there are Point System's value also for the following cards ?

    - Unreachable Machine Guns (Phönix D.I)
    - Higher Machine Gun (Nieuport 11)
    - Rockets only (Ancillotto)
    - Rockets and Machine Gun (Ancillotto)
    - Flying Doctrine (Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter)
    - Fixed Higher Machine Gun (Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter Comic)
    - Rookie Observer (Albatros C.III)
    - Alternative Armament (Nieuport 17)
    - Shadower (Charles Nungesser)
    - Lockable Controls (Albatros D.III)
    - Experimental Armament (Ufag C.I)
    - Perfect Bombardier (Ufag C.I)
    - Photo Expert (Ufag C.I)
    - Pdr. Davis Gun (RAF R.E.8)
    - Emergency Controls (RAF R.E.8)
    - Additional Machine Gun (RAF R.E.8)

    many thanks !

  4. #504

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    Quote Originally Posted by comPVter View Post
    Ciao,
    there are Point System's value also for the following cards ?

    - Unreachable Machine Guns (Phönix D.I)
    - Higher Machine Gun (Nieuport 11)
    - Rockets only (Ancillotto)
    - Rockets and Machine Gun (Ancillotto)
    - Flying Doctrine (Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter)
    - Fixed Higher Machine Gun (Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter Comic)
    - Rookie Observer (Albatros C.III)
    - Alternative Armament (Nieuport 17)
    - Shadower (Charles Nungesser)
    - Lockable Controls (Albatros D.III)
    - Experimental Armament (Ufag C.I)
    - Perfect Bombardier (Ufag C.I)
    - Photo Expert (Ufag C.I)
    - Pdr. Davis Gun (RAF R.E.8)
    - Emergency Controls (RAF R.E.8)
    - Additional Machine Gun (RAF R.E.8)

    many thanks !
    Well, doing some thinking...

    - Higher Machine Gun: Honestly, it's broken in my opinion, and I made houserules to fix it. Otherwise, play without it.
    - Alternative Armament (Nieuport 17): We have both a B-firing and A-firing Nieuport 17 that are otherwise identical - just use the points for the other version.
    - Fixed Higher Machine Gun (Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter Comic): I'm not sure that this is actually a net positive in the first place, especially considering it's poor rate of climb. I had a chance to use it against a Stakken, and decided not to.
    Emergency Controls (RAF R.E.8): I figure the odds of having the pilot his twice on two separate crew hits (of which there is only 1 in the "A" deck and 2 in the "B" deck) are low enough, and the reduced deck cruddy enough, I'm not sure this is actually something worth increasing the point total over.
    - Additional Machine Gun (RAF R.E.8): Simply price the plane as a B/A firing R.E.8, as that is what is it.

  5. #505

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    Many thanks.
    I'll try to collect new planes for Xmas.
    I'd like to play with Points System against my sons.

  6. #506

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    Are there any points basis for A.A. guns?

  7. #507

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    Andrea: I have a couple of questions about the points costs of two aircraft.

    1) Roland B/B is 28pts more than the -/B, that seems a heck of a lot for just a B gun on the front. Is that right?

    2) Albatros C.III is 81pts, this seems over costed in comparison to the UFAG at 83pts, the Albatros has a worse maneuver deck, far worse climb rate, worse ceiling and one less hit point. It is terrible in comparison even when not using altitude.

    What is everyone else's opinion on these?
    Last edited by Popsical; 04-27-2018 at 13:58.

  8. #508

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    Andrea, are we likely to see a points list that reflects the altitude rules too?
    Does anyone have a rough points guide to the move decks? I have managed to work out the points costs for hit points, guns (A and B) and extra crew men and have various points costs left over, I will list these below. The UFAG and Staaken seem to be under costed and the DH4 AB,B seems over costed, but most seem pretty fair.
    I am working toward finding pts costs for altitudes in game.
    Cheers!
    Last edited by Popsical; 07-03-2018 at 09:53.

  9. #509

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    If you haven't already check out Andrea's post #36 Steven - it may,or, may not help you..

    A/B machineguns are 48/24 points, .... There are some adjustments for broader field of fire (as with the Roland).
    2 points per damage point is the average (as you see from the "initial damage -2 per point" option), with some adjustment for very low or very high damage ratings (Caproni and Gotha), and for multiple engines and more crew.
    Maneuvre decks are rated from 0 (standard two-seaters) to 20 (Fokker D.VII), at least at the moment, ...

    "He is wise who watches"

  10. #510

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    Cheers Dave, I read the thread but must have missed that one.

    Update: oddly I prefer my method, I don't like that some decks worked out at 0pts, especially when the morane/eindecker deck is better than the Albatross CIII's. The CIII should get a refund in points if the T deck is better.

    The Strutter single seater is short changed however you look at it. The two seater gets an extra crewman with a B deck rear gun for 8pts more.
    Last edited by Popsical; 05-02-2018 at 09:01.

  11. #511

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    I would think that most rear guns get be worth more than same type of gun mounted in the front. When you can fire from two arc simultaneously that is a distinct advantage of the gun itself. Also to be able to fire someone trying to tail you gives a further advantage beyond the gun itself.

  12. #512

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    A good point there Ken. I suppose when using the blind spot rule the rear gun loses some of its value.
    The two seater strutter though gets its extra crewman and a 24pt b gun for a mere 8 pts, or more likely the single seater is quite highly over pointed.

  13. #513

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    Quote Originally Posted by Popsical View Post
    ...The two seater strutter though gets its extra crewman and a 24pt b gun for a mere 8 pts, or more likely the single seater is quite highly over pointed.
    Not quite Steven - If it is a comparison of the two below from the table to which you refer then you should know that the Comic, albeit a single seater, is armed with a twin Lewis gun mount so would have the same number of guns as the standard Strutter just in a different configuration.
    Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter 86
    Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter Comic 78
    Admittedly I don't use points and have no idea how it is calculated other than the little gleaned from Andrea's posts but would think there wouldn't be much in it other than the extra bloke and wider fields of fire v an A gun mount & its ability to fire upwards ?

    "He is wise who watches"

  14. #514

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    Good point Dave, I missed that it has an A gun, Doh!
    It does mean that the Strutter 2 seater pays 8pts for a second crewman I suppose. 2 B guns costing the same as an A.

    Having looked at the deck costs, how much does a Y deck cost? It is worse than the two decks worth 0pts, refund pts?
    Last edited by Popsical; 05-04-2018 at 08:35.

  15. #515

    atomzero
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    The Blind Spot rule is a huge factor. I believe it's been said that the points system does not incorporate optional rules, and the Blind Spot affects the performance of rear guns in a major way. That's why I try to remind myself that the points are best used as guidelines for balancing scenarios, and not a catechism for competitive play.

  16. #516

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    I just like to tinker with points systems for fun. Competitive play doesn't interest me at all, but I find it interesting playing around with game balance. Wings being an historic based game with a relatively small number of models is easier to tinker with than some other games.

    Airco DH4 15 hp and bb guns 89pts H deck
    Ufag 16 hp and bb guns 83pts H deck
    Interesting comparison, is the DH4 rear arc that much better than the ufag?
    Last edited by Popsical; 05-04-2018 at 09:15.

  17. #517

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    Quote Originally Posted by Popsical View Post
    I just like to tinker with points systems for fun. Competitive play doesn't interest me at all, but I find it interesting playing around with game balance. Wings being an historic based game with a relatively small number of models is easier to tinker with than some other games.
    Yeah it is... Just add another plane or two to the other side

    "He is wise who watches"

  18. #518

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    Keep it very quiet Dave... but I am one of those really weird and frowned upon people that enjoys trying out "What If" moments...
    There, I've said it! I know a great many historical gamers who seek to burn at the stake heretics such as myself. So I tend to keep it to myself lol.
    So points systems are even more fun to toy with for guys/heretics like me.
    Last edited by Popsical; 05-04-2018 at 11:15.

  19. #519

    atomzero
    Guest


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    I didn't mean to sound like it was a pointless conversation. I'm glad someone is thinking about it. i think about the same stuff when I want to make models of planes that aren't in the system yet.

    And yes, I am also one of those "What if" heretics. There's no harm in peeking at what might have happened if plane A and plane B clashed. Besides, who is to say for sure that some of the "apocryphal" matchups never happened? Many smaller powers got their planes from a wide variety of sources and eras.

  20. #520

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    Ok, so after using Andrea's points system as the basis for calculating plane points including altitude (I made a few minor tweaks to balance things).

    Airco DH2 = 62pts
    Albatros CIII = 80pts
    Albatros DII a deck = 84pts
    Albatros DII b deck = 64pts
    Albatros DIII = 87pts
    Albatros DVa = 92pts
    Aviatik DI a deck = 94pts
    Aviatik DI b deck = 74pts
    Breguet B2 a/a = 136pts
    Breguet B2 b/a = 116pts
    Breguet B2 b/b = 96pts
    Bristol F2b b/b = 98pts
    Bristol F2b ab/a =162pts
    Bristol F2b a/b = 118pts
    Bristol F2b b/a 118pts
    DH4 USA a/a = 132pts
    DH4 ab/b = 141pts
    DH4 b/a = 117pts
    DH4 b/b = 97pts
    Fokker DVII = 110pts
    Fokker Dr1 = 95pts
    Fokker EIII = 54pts
    Fokker EV = 100pts
    Halberstadt CLII = 93pts
    Halberstadt DIII = 65pts
    Hannover CLIII = 100pts
    Hanriot a deck = 97pts
    Hanriot b deck = 77pts
    Macchi = 93pts
    Morane = 53pts
    Nieuport 11 = 59pts
    Nieuport 16 = 60pts
    Nieuport 17 a deck = 86pts
    Nieuport 17 b deck = 66pts
    Nieuport 28 = 97pts
    Pfalz DIII = 92pts
    Phonix = 95pts
    Re8 b/a = 103pts
    Re8 b/b = 83pts
    Roland CII b/b = 86pts
    Roland CII b = 62pts
    Rumpler = 94pts
    Se5a a deck = 102pts
    Se5a b deck = 82pts
    Sopwith Pup = 69pts
    Sopwith Strutter b/b = 87pts
    Sopwith Strutter comic = 85pts
    Sopwith Camel = 99pts
    Sopwith Snipe = 106pts
    Sopwith Triplane a deck = 95pts
    Sopwith Triplane b deck = 75pts
    SPAD VII a deck = 94pts
    SPAD VII b deck = 74pts
    SPAD XIII 97pts
    Siemans Schuckert DIII = 105pts
    Ufag = 92pts

    Bombers
    Caproni C3 = 136
    Handley Page 0/400 = 137
    Gotha GV = 128
    Zeppelin Staaken = 273

    Newly edited please let me know how you get on with these if you try them. Onward and upward!
    Last edited by Popsical; 08-12-2018 at 10:42.

  21. #521

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    Looking at the bombers point costs has brought up a few queries.
    The Staaken seems pointed correctly (give or take a point or two), The Caproni by the same costs seems vastly over costed.
    2pts per hit point
    24pts for a b gun
    44pts for an a gun

    Staaken 34 hit points 68pts, 5x b guns, 120pts, optional extra b gun 24pts, 3 extra engines and 1 extra crew 24pts. Total 236pts Deck 3pts? My calculated altitude cost 2pts.
    At 239 (241 with altitude) it seems pretty well costed.

    Caproni 25 hit points 50pts, 2x b guns 48pts, 2 extra engines 1 extra crew 18pts. Total 116pts Deck 27pts?
    A bit steep for the deck there.
    I'd like to see the Ares workings out for the bombers if possible.
    Last edited by Popsical; 05-09-2018 at 12:18.

  22. #522

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    The Ca3 is costed at 143pts Steven, you're looking at the point cost for the the other Caproni - the Ca4 - XA deck, 28 Health, 3 engines, 3 B guns, 5 crew according to its old WoW card from FotG set.

    "He is wise who watches"

  23. #523

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    Cheers Dave.
    It still seems to pay 27 points for its deck, which is steep for that kite.

  24. #524

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    I have no idea mate - just spotted you had quoted the wrong Caproni. I'm sure Andrea has a formula for it somewhere, seem to recall he said something somewhere about having to adjust things for bombers but that may be wholly wrong !

    "He is wise who watches"

  25. #525

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    I had about eleven games using altitude rules over the weekend using the above points using all the different planes we could manage. The points seem to be well balanced and show a good reflection of the difference altitude makes.

  26. #526

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    Thnaks for the update. Interesting result indeed!

  27. #527

  28. #528

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    Cheers John.
    Andrea, probably one of the biggest influences of points values of aircraft is the size of battlefield. When playing on two ares mats the fastest planes with poor turning are seldom worth their points at all. We played this weekend on 3 mats and the faster planes became balanced versus the slower ones. Next time it will be 4 mats 2x2.
    Very good balance was achieved this weekend with planes from all years of the war intermixing and opposing ( 3 to 5 aircraft a side in all eleven games ). Very happy with the points so far.
    Last edited by Popsical; 07-31-2018 at 02:10.

  29. #529

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    I use points all the time. Helps balance the game out.

    Nieuport 16 has 10 hit points.

  30. #530

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    Cheers again John. Try my altitude points and see how they work out for you. Feedback appreciated.

  31. #531

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    Quote Originally Posted by Popsical View Post
    Cheers again John. Try my altitude points and see how they work out for you. Feedback appreciated.
    I do not play altitude. Wing mates have 4 thumbs and one finger.

  32. #532

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    That's a shame. Altitude makes such a difference to some of the planes.

  33. #533

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    So after slaving for many hours I have managed to create a spreadsheet with all the planes points including altitude on it. I have included all my formulas for the calculations.
    Very happy with the balance after playing.
    The 273? under the Staaken's cost is my new test points for it and the 13.5? next to the Sopwith Camels deck cost is the actual cost but I rounded it up for the total points.
    Enjoy!
    Wings of Glory plane points.xlsx
    Last edited by Popsical; 07-31-2018 at 02:09.

  34. #534

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    Update to play testing of points including altitude:
    Played a whopping 18 games over 2 and a half days using 4 to 5 models a side. Varied missions of six types. The balance seems spot on with no issues spotted at all.
    Staaken should be 273pts which works well with using the under slung gun with the roving crewman or without.
    All in all very comfortable that the points listed above in my post are workable and need no further tampering at this time.

  35. #535

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    Quote Originally Posted by Popsical View Post
    Update to play testing of points including altitude:
    Played a whopping 18 games over 2 and a half days using 4 to 5 models a side. Varied missions of six types. The balance seems spot on with no issues spotted at all.
    Staaken should be 273pts which works well with using the under slung gun with the roving crewman or without.
    All in all very comfortable that the points listed above in my post are workable and need no further tampering at this time.
    Excellent, that is a lot of games played.

  36. #536

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    Cheers John. You should try altitude rules using dice to show height if your butter fingers mates struggle

  37. #537

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    Quote Originally Posted by Popsical View Post
    Cheers John. You should try altitude rules using dice to show height if your butter fingers mates struggle
    Tried that, and they kept hitting and changing the number on the die. Sometimes I think I'm playing with the 3 stooges.

  38. #538

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    that sounds so much like my last games group. I had to walk away after a while because they were so bloody pointless playing.

  39. #539

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    Has anyone calculated the cost of “Shadower” and “Expert Trainer” ?

  40. #540

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    Hi all, I am just getting into Wings of Glory although it seems to have been out for a while now.

    Which list should I be looking at? The original list on the first page of the excel document? I don't think anybody at the club uses the altitude rules.

  41. #541

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    Updated according to last releases.
    Added Se5 and Breguet XIV A2.
    Added new skills and changed a few points on others.
    Added the possibility of a "rookie pilot only" or "rookie observer only" two-seater.
    Sorry for taking time for that.

  42. #542

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    Do we have points for Fokker E.IV?
    It was released officially as a card, both double and triple gun variant.
    Also climb rate and ceiling would be nice

  43. #543

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    Fokker E.IV Climb 4 Ceiling 9

    Points:
    Fokker E.IV fire A 67
    Fokker E.IV fire A+B 95

  44. #544

  45. #545

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    Andrea please Siemens-Schuckert D.III, thank you

  46. #546

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    Siemens-Schuckert D.I and D.III were already there, even if out of laziness I just wrote SS D.I and SS D.III. Corrected. What we were missing was D.IV, now added.
    Thanks for piinting out lacking planes!
    Last edited by Angiolillo; 02-29-2020 at 05:42.

  47. #547

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    I am working on a kind of a database app, so i need all the data, especially for the official airplanes

  48. #548

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    Great!!! Eager to see it!

  49. #549

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    Halberstadt D.III with a twin-gun (A) - points
    Halberstadt CL.II A/B - points
    Siemens-Schuckert D.I climb and ceiling
    DFW C.V climb and ceiling
    Siemens-Schuckert D.IV climb and ceiling - or maybe a link so i can check climb and ceiling data myself

    Last edited by Honza; 02-29-2020 at 12:53.

  50. #550

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honza View Post
    Halberstadt D.III with a twin-gun (A) - points
    Halberstadt CL.II A/B - points
    Siemens-Schuckert D.I climb and ceiling
    DFW C.V climb and ceiling
    Siemens-Schuckert D.IV climb and ceiling - or maybe a link so i can check climb and ceiling data myself
    Halb D.III only had a single gun; Halb CL.II also just B/B; Climb & ceilings found in unofficial stats here in the files SS D.IV is 2/17; SS D.I is 4/11; DFW V is 5/11.

    "He is wise who watches"

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