Who had "A" guns and who had "B" guns? What is more accurate

[Omegalazarus]

This is a question that seems to be relevant to many players as noted by the long and interesting thread here http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...ction-Previews

If a person intends to run only a single plane of a certain type or perhaps a few and wants to represent the gun types accurately, how can they find out what to buy?

What this is basically asking is, in the case of the Tripe, should you run an "A" or a "B" if your goal is historical accuracy (as historical probability). In the case of the Tripe, it is pretty well known. The vast majority of them had a single gun "B" and a few (less than 10, I think) had double guns "A". Ares did a good job of representing this by making 2 out of 3 of the models "B" and the other one (Collishaw's, of course) "A".

Can we expand this to a larger field? Several of the new releases have "A" and "B" options and some might want to know which to get, if they are getting only one or what percent to get in each gun if getting multiple.

Of course, anyone can dig enough (through pics, source material, reports etc.) and get this information, but I wonder if the collective minds on this forum already have it (or a good deal of it).

If there are those out there who might know the rough number or percentage of Tripes, or Berg's etc. that would have a single gun (or B gun equivalent) versus the ones that had double guns (or A gun equivalents) chime in. Maybe we can get a good info on the thread and then condense it into a file for reference.

As much as I wanted Collishaw's plane (for posterity), I will likely get one of the others because It hits me well. Even back in the cockpit of Red Baron 3D, I remember guffawing at my poor single gun when I took the Tripe up to the skies.

So how about it? Past models and present, if anyone has info on a plane miniature that was created in multiple loadouts, how often would you be expected to see the "A" versus the "B" one.

For the sake of manageability and use in game without modding, please keep the list to planes that were made for the game with different options (instead of all the myriad of actual options that were historically one the crates).

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Whilst I am all for diversity and choice from a gaming perspective there will always be the player who will plump for the best choice to fly, rather than go for historical accuracy. They play the rules not the game. Well if that is their wish then let them. I will play my way and for those who have seen the pics I do love my Fokker Dr1. I will put it up against all types and whether I go down in a blaze of glory or single handed blow my opponents out of the sky, I will play for the enjoyment of a good game, the participation, the 'crack' with likewise opponents and not to fly this or that plane because it was the best or had the most firepower. In all games you come across such people, we learn to play with them or we don't that is our choice. I am not trying to sway you one way or the other, for historical accuracy or the gamers choice, just to put my 'two penneth' into the arena.

Good hunting and may you always draw better cards than your opponent.

Neil

Don't take everything I have said too Just stay and otherwise you'll hit a and end up ing.

[Willi Von Klugermann]

I have to admit my Tripe with twin Vickers in RoF is pretty sweet.....such a cool sound when you rip into someone.

[Omegalazarus]

I have to admit my Tripe with twin Vickers in RoF is pretty sweet.....such a cool sound when you rip into someone.

AH, I wish I had the PC to run that game. It looks so beautiful. Does it run well? Are the missions well done? YOu can PM me to answer so we don't derail the thread.

[Zoe Brain]

If there are those out there who might know the rough number or percentage of Tripes, or Berg's etc. that would have a single gun (or B gun equivalent) versus the ones that had double guns (or A gun equivalents) chime in. Maybe we can get a good info on the thread and then condense it into a file for reference.

Unfortunately things aren't that simple.... take as an example the Sopwith Triplane.

When it first went into service in early 1917, none had 2 guns, most had lower powered engines.
By the time it exited service on the Western Front, in late 1917, maybe 30% had 2 guns - given that 10 were produced, and only ~25 were still in service by then, all late-production.

Or look at the Nieuport 11. In late 1915, one lewis, with only 47 rounds,no reloads. By early 1917, when it was phased out, 2 lewis guns (no reloads) were standard with the French Navy, one (with a double magazine and 2 reloads) standard elsewhere.

A reasonable rule-of-thumb, which also is in accordance with game balance, is that if you're flying a Nieuport 17 vs Fokker E-IIIs, you have a single gun. If flying vs Albatros D.IIIs, two. If flying a Sopwith Triplane vs D.IIIs, have one gun: if flying vs D.Vs, two.

There are numerous abstractions in the game. No account is made of ammunition running out. There's no difference between the high ROF lewis and the much lower ROF of the synchro vickers and spandau. No difference between the even higher ROF parabellum and the lewis, nor the fact that the parabellum was such a weighty beast, the lewis was a far better gun as you could swivel it, even a 2 gun mount, much more easily to actually draw a bead on the target.

If you want more accuracy - you really need to research individual aircraft and squadrons, and only go against types that actually were in service at that date, and in that sector. The rule-of-thumb I gave above is the next most accurate way of determining this.

[Omegalazarus]

Unfortunately things aren't that simple.... take as an example the Sopwith Triplane.

When it first went into service in early 1917, none had 2 guns, most had lower powered engines.
By the time it exited service on the Western Front, in late 1917, maybe 30% had 2 guns - given that 10 were produced, and only ~25 were still in service by then, all late-production.

Yes, you are getting close. The request is for the overall percent, not specific to front or time. THat way, we are playing with a simplified representation of the total war production of that plane. THis makes sense in the game since the only specifics paid (unless playing a very specific scenario set in an actual place and time) are general usage dates. THis is shown in the general guidance of playing DH2's versus Halberstadts and MS Type N versus Eindeckers.

FUrther subdivision in that area is fruitless as it is not necessary for the players or representative to the game overall. It is only needed for certain scenarios and can be covered by those guidelines listed in the scenario.

If you want more accuracy - you really need to research individual aircraft and squadrons, and only go against types that actually were in service at that date, and in that sector. The rule-of-thumb I gave above is the next most accurate way of determining this.

No, we want less accuracy (at least that is the purpose of this thread that you posted in). Again, this advice that you gave on accuracy is excellent for setting into scenario rules and guidelines. Thanks for your reply and an outline on the Tripe's full service record. It seems that about 10 were produced as double guns. Now, we just need to know how many were produced and deployed to the forces, in total. That formula will give us the percent chance of facing against a Tripe with double guns at any time during its run in the amalgamous world of the 70cm battlefield.

Refer to the original post - "For the sake of manageability and use in game without modding, please keep the list to planes that were made for the game with different options (instead of all the myriad of actual options that were historically one the crates). " Infer into this, all other aspects of the war that are not attempting to be covered by WoG. The goal is to use this to have an accurate array of miniatures to play with the game and its rules as written. There are many players who would like to do this, but do not want to augment the game with charts, false restrictions or other specifics that serve accuracy, but slow game play and increase complication. The problem we are trying to solve would not slow gameplay or set up at all. It simply allows us a more informed purchasing decision for those who wish for a slightly more representative set of miniatures.

This will help keep us all from going down the rabbit hole and trying to bring elements into WoG that do not fit as well and that are covered by other games.


Thanks for the informative reply. If we can get some more posters with this info, we will be set for a successful future reference file.

[gully_raker]

Whilst I am all for diversity and choice from a gaming perspective there will always be the player who will plump for the best choice to fly, rather than go for historical accuracy. They play the rules not the game. Well if that is their wish then let them. I will play my way and for those who have seen the pics I do love my Fokker Dr1. I will put it up against all types and whether I go down in a blaze of glory or single handed blow my opponents out of the sky, I will play for the enjoyment of a good game, the participation, the 'crack' with likewise opponents and not to fly this or that plane because it was the best or had the most firepower. In all games you come across such people, we learn to play with them or we don't that is our choice. I am not trying to sway you one way or the other, for historical accuracy or the gamers choice, just to put my 'two penneth' into the arena.

Good hunting and may you always draw better cards than your opponent.

Neil

Don't take everything I have said too Just stay and otherwise you'll hit a and end up ing.

Amen to that Neil. Well said & I could not have said it better.

[gully_raker]

According to the old Profile Publications book on the Tripe only about 150 odd Clerget engined planes were built plus 2 Hispano-Suzia engined ones although Contracts had been given for 166 Aircraft.
Only the RNAS used the Triplane & they actually swapped out SPAD VII's to the RFC for the RFC's Tripe allocation.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

[QUOTE=Skafloc;200829] I will play my way and for those who have seen the pics I do love my Fokker Dr1. I will put it up against all types and whether I go down in a blaze of glory or single handed blow my opponents out of the sky, I will play for the enjoyment of a good game, the participation, the 'crack' with likewise opponents and not to fly this or that plane because it was the best or had the most firepower. In all games you come across such people, we learn to play with them or we don't that is our choice.




Rob.