The Wild, Wild East around 1920

[Zoe Brain]

This is a fertile ground for mismatched aircraft. Just about anything that could fly was used, and it wasn't unknown for the same aircraft to be captured, re-captured, re-re-captured etc. A White aircraft could end up being taken by the Reds, then the pilot defecting to the Poles, who donated it to the Ukraine...where the Reds captured it again.

Here's some of my Wild Wild East aircraft. Credit to Clipper for his very easy to use conversion kit for the Ilya G-2.



In addition to Reds and Whites, there's Poles, Georgians, Ukrainians, German Freikorps, the Greater Horde of Don Cossacks, Lithuanians, and the Knights of St John of Malta (nominally White, actually Freikorps or just plain independant).

[Nightbomber]

You should see my envious eyes, Zoe. A beautiful collection of the 1920 wars. My humble collection of the era consists of two aircraft so far...must return to my desk and paints right after winter holidays, no excuse!

[Archidamus]

That's an impressive collection Zoe

[Jager]

Agreed, a most impressive collection.
Ahh...the Russian civil War (and associated conflicts): a wargamer's dream, a Humanist's nightmare, and a historian's [sighs and rolls eyes].
With all the plane swapping, you might do well to use static-stick decals
Karl

[Nick_ace]

Agreed too!!!!!Impressive collection!!!
I loved that Dr.I!!!!Is it from Russia???
Thanks

Nick

[Burt]

A wonderful collection, I am tempted, no I must resist, well for the time being anyway.

[Zoe Brain]

With all the plane swapping, you might do well to use static-stick decals

As the photo below illustrates, they didn't always bother changing markings. I believe this one's a Soviet squadron.




Some of the aircraft:

The Voisin L had two mounts - but only one gun, that was switched between them, by the gunner - who fired from a standing position.





Some Voisins of the Greater Horde of Don Cossacks - insignia dark blue triangle in white circle.




The Ilya - first, the V series - same as Shapeways model



Now the G-1,G-2 and G-3 series, Dimensionally the same, but with detail changes.

G-3 (white) with overwing tanks



G series (red) with underwing tanks. Note hatches for MGs to right of red star, different tail.



This shows the side gun hatches more clearly



Closeup of G series tail showing rear gun position



Bombing Up an Ilya - note door slides to left (forwards) and pintle mount for lewis above fuselage.



Sometimes a Maxim gun was placed above the fuselage, if there was no lewis mount.



Closeup of type V gunmounts, in cutout in top wing.




if you look closely... you'll see the white type V has 2 gunners in the wing cutout, and a maxim by the upper hatch. The red type G-3 has a lewis at the rear, another in the top hatch, one gunner only in the cutout, and lewises in the side hatches. There's also a lewis poking out of the door, an alternate position for the one in the belly hatch.




I won't mention the seaplane version, with inboard radials, outboard in-lines, and fuel tanks above each. I think this is a B model

[BobP]

As usual Zoe what can someone say about you excellant work. What a collection and woprk you have done.

[greenalfonzo]

Fascinating stuff. I'm looking forward to reading an AAR of all that stuff in action!

[Zoe Brain]

I loved that Dr.I!!!!Is it from Russia???

Yes - see this thread on the subject - http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...9-The-Evidence

[Zoe Brain]

Fascinating stuff. I'm looking forward to reading an AAR of all that stuff in action!

Not ALL that stuff... but we had a 5-sided game at Cancon. Red vs White vs Ukraine vs Don Cossacks vs Georgians.



More on this thread - http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...ly-Fun-for-All!

[Zoe Brain]

Ah. I've just found a second source that heavily implies that at least some Nieuport 28s made it into Russian service after the Revolution. Whether part of the original delivery of 200, or ex-US ones after that batch was diverted to US service and then replaced by Spd XIIIs, isn't certain. Probably the latter, as date of service is 1918. A few Spad XIIIs made it east too.

Two photos, one illustrating the variety of markings, the other even more intriguing.

Red BAG1 - Spads in overpainted french markings, Nieuports with French Rondels and Red Stars, and a Strutter with RAF roundels.



And this one, when things had settled down a bit. All Spads, Nieuport 17s and 24bis's in red stars... and in the foreground, long before official postwar delivery, two Fokker D.VIIs.




Captured aircraft:

A Friedrichshafen G.III. With red stars under the wings.....



Hansa-Brandenberg C.I, Don Cossacks

[Naharaht]

Very Impressive!

[itchy]

very impressive and informative ,the RCW and back of beyond as always interested me but so far its not in my gaming collection in any form (well not yet)

[jbmacek]

Gotta love that Commie Dr.I.

So, Zoe, can you think of any planes used in theatre that aren't available in 1:144 scale yet?

[Nick_ace]

Yes - see this thread on the subject - http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...9-The-Evidence

Thanks Zoe!!!!!Again Beautiful Dr.I!!!!!

[john snelling]

great post!!!

[Zoe Brain]

Gotta love that Commie Dr.I.

So, Zoe, can you think of any planes used in theatre that aren't available in 1:144 scale yet?

Sikorski S-16, the various Grigorivich Flying Boats, the Mosca-Bystritsky bis, the Anatra Anade and Anasal. The Lebed XII iis basically an Albatros C.III.

[jbmacek]

Anadwa VKh is kooky, and I love it.

[Zoe Brain]

Anadwa VKh is kooky, and I love it.

The construction of the Anadwa VKh used two Anatra D fuselages, joined by a new wing that was still using elements of the Anatra wing. The left fuselage was occupied by the pilot, and the right by an observer. The aircraft's gunner was located in a nacelle attached to the center of the upper wing providing an excellent defense capability. Early models were powered by a pair of 100hp Gnome-Monosoupape engines. Test flights started on July 9, 1916. The tests results were very favorable, but aircraft did not go into production. The reason for this might have been due to its weird design.

Actually 50 were ordered, but the Revolutions in March and November 1917 (October by Russian calendar) interrupted things. Some might have been built.





A 3-view is at http://flyingmachines.ru/Images7/Sha...a-sh1p195a.gif



I men, if some talented 3D modelmaker was to make a Shapeways model of it. But what are the chances of that?

[jbmacek]

Do you mean, some 3d modelmaker who has a crazy plan to do an alt-hist 1919 with lots of anti-Commie action? Hmmm... I think I may know that guy.

[wargamer]

No need for alt history, there were basically no periods of real peace during the period betwixt the great war and it's continuation in 1939. And a very big chunk was in the eastern european areas.

Do you mean, some 3d modelmaker who has a crazy plan to do an alt-hist 1919 with lots of anti-Commie action? Hmmm... I think I may know that guy.

[BobP]

Alt history? Have to research this period. I know the ground war with the Reds and Whites but didn't know of any air combat. Have to look into that.

[jbmacek]

Yep, alternate history. It is true that the actual history is amazing, but probably not amazing enough to allow me to use a 1919 production model Austin-Ball that has been captured by the Soviets, painted white, and has had the wheels replaced with skis, against von Richthofen in his Zeppelin-Lindau D.II.

[Nightbomber]

Alt history? Have to research this period. I know the ground war with the Reds and Whites but didn't know of any air combat. Have to look into that.

Bob, there were some aerial (well, mostly ground attack) exciting actions during Polish-Soviet War 1919-1920, described in memoires of C.Faunt-le-Roy and M.Cooper, completed in a book by Robert F. Karolevitz i Ross S. Fenn "Flight of EaglesThe Story of American Squadron in the Polish-Russian War 1919-1920". An excellent read I can highly recommend!

[BobP]

I read a book years ago about the allies involvement in the Russian Civ War but it was all ground stuff so I have to look this up. Thanks for the info Andrzej.

[wargamer]

Rather than dig them up, reference pages 75-80 for a listing of wars.

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/dow...o=file&id=1153

[jbmacek]

Well done, wargamer, well done!

[grumpybear]

Very very nice.

[Putraack]

Good to see, thanks for posting all of this. I've not read a lot on the air action (but will fix that soon), more on the ground war, espionage & politics. For instance, whose markings are the red shield-shape in your pictures? The black triangle?

[Zoe Brain]

For instance, whose markings are the red shield-shape in your pictures? The black triangle?

The Lithuanian Fokker D.VII is actually on an official WoW card. In the Top Fighter booster pack, Fokker D.VII - - Lithuanian Karo Aviacijos.

A quick aside on Lithuanian markings - there are 3 kinds, from 1918-1920, 1920-1921 and 1921+

1918 Pattern



This one is nearly right for the 1920-21 pattern, but the shield should be on a white chordwise stripe.




This one is for the 1921+ pattern:






The Black (or possibly dark blue) triangle on white circle is for the Almighty Host of the Don Cossacks.

[HTRAINo]

I've been on wikipedia this morning, reading up on the Polish-Soviet war.

It's easy to keep reading once you start, and it's fascinating history!

[Jager]

Any idea what they re-engined the D.VII with? and if the flight characterisics were markedly different?
Karl

[csadn]

I've been on wikipedia this morning, reading up on the Polish-Soviet war.

http://www.amazon.com/White-Eagle-Re.../dp/0712606947 -- Recommended Reading.

[fast.git]

Very cool. A fascinating and not very well known period of time. Thanks for sharing.