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Thread: Prague Summer Con 2013

  1. #201

  2. #202

    Default The Rules of Engagement

    Chaps and Yelena

    I would like to start the discussion about tournament rules for the Con.
    Do we need any? I would say yes. What is your opinion?
    Shall we count individual victories, mission points, team points?

    Another question: tables arrangement? WWI, BoB, Pacific, Desert? These mats we have.

  3. #203

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    I can only speak for WWI. I would say full RAP, with or without altitude. I would go for individual kill count and possibly campaign missions score as a separate category, if there is an interest in a campaign at all.

    As for maps: I own both Nexus maps and the city and the coast Ares maps. I am going to buy the third one before the Con. There are more Nexus and Ares maps here (even available in the shop), so that part we definitely have covered. Any unofficial maps would be a bonus.

  4. #204

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    For the rules I would prefer:

    Altitude rules for Immelmans, Split-S and dive maneuvers (1 - 5 altitude pegs).

    Easy bombing - means independent from the level you throw the bomb, it takes one movement card to hit the target.

    No aim bonus for gunners (maybe no aim bonus in general or only for shoting from above).



    For counting individual victories:

    We should do this.

    Maybe we can find a solution to count them and divide them with the solved missions to determine the winner.

    Should we make a difference between WW I & WW II?

    I know that WW II bombers won't be a players first choice under this circumstances, but I think we'll find enough volunteers for the medium bombers & dive bombers, or not Andrzej? (You & me in a tight He111 formation versus a few Yaks)



    For table arrangements:

    We can use the new Ares gaming mats for Eastern Front scenarios, too.

    Watchdog plans a spreadsheet to determine interest and available material for the Con.



    Just my opinion, I'm curious what the others write.

  5. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    For the rules I would prefer:

    Altitude rules for Immelmans, Split-S and dive maneuvers (1 - 5 altitude pegs). YES. (1-5 or 1-4?)

    Easy bombing - means independent from the level you throw the bomb, it takes one movement card to hit the target. YES.

    No aim bonus for gunners (maybe no aim bonus in general or only for shoting from above). YES: Only +1 from above and no +1 bonus in ANY other situations (messy with more planes).


    For counting individual victories:

    We should do this. YES.

    Maybe we can find a solution to count them and divide them with the solved missions to determine the winner.

    Should we make a difference between WW I & WW II? NO difference for me.

    I know that WW II bombers won't be a players first choice under this circumstances, but I think we'll find enough volunteers for the medium bombers & dive bombers, or not Andrzej? (You & me in a tight He111 formation versus a few Yaks) We will get through!



    For table arrangements:

    We can use the new Ares gaming mats for Eastern Front scenarios, too. DEFINITELY YES.

    Watchdog plans a spreadsheet to determine interest and available material for the Con. COOL.

    Just my opinion, I'm curious what the others write.
    Commented above

  6. #206

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    Quote Originally Posted by Watchdog View Post
    I can only speak for WWI. I would say full RAP, with or without altitude. I would go for individual kill count and possibly campaign missions score as a separate category, if there is an interest in a campaign at all.

    As for maps: I own both Nexus maps and the city and the coast Ares maps. I am going to buy the third one before the Con. There are more Nexus and Ares maps here (even available in the shop), so that part we definitely have covered. Any unofficial maps would be a bonus.

    As to Full RAP: I am not sure if we can handle this, Jan. Must run through the adv. options again. I am all against "Flying Higher" rule for sure. Altitude rules yes, but simplified ones (1-4 pegs only).

    Thanks for your first opinions mates.

  7. #207

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    Since our American members are more experienced in multi-table Cons, I will ask them for a piece of advice in the matter. Maybe there are some easy solution how to arrange tournaments like that.
    Have a look at the growing participants list. It's closing to 20!

  8. #208

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    I am going to create the spreadsheet as soon as I have Penal Law, Criminology and Psychology exams behind me, that is, hopefully, next week.

  9. #209

  10. #210

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    I wrote 1-5 altitude pegs for dive bomber missions especially for WW II missions.

    We need a minimum af two dive bomb maneuvers to throw a bomb.

    Starting in altitude 5 will give Stukas and Vals a little bit more room for evasive maneuvers.

  11. #211

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    Andrzej,
    thanks for updating the list

    About the rules(I talk about WW1):
    I am for full RAP as the standard (but without unofficial rules). Exception: The BOOM (we should treat it as collision, or so). Aiming bonuses are good thing ( )
    And we should perhaps have one table with somewhat simplyfied rules.

    Counting victories is fine, if nobody gets overcompetetive. And we could count them in row - If you get shot down, start from zero (best achieved result counts. If tie, goal difference - i.e. total total score prevails.)

    And, most important of all!!! Will beer be cold?

  12. #212

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    Knowing Czechs a little bit I am sure the beer will be freezing cold
    Like it was during Con 2012!
    Last year we set XP cards aside, if memory serves well. We can do the same this year as well. Aiming bonus may be tricky in a dogfight mess, but majority vote will decide

  13. #213

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    Should we put some poll then?

  14. #214

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    We can decide it in the Club, when everybody is present

  15. #215

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    Not fair! How can I vote, having plane in one, and glass in other hand? And a mouth full of beer

  16. #216

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    I can't remember how we treat explosions last year, but I think we didn't use them.

    What does fulll RAP rules mean to you? All options? That will be difficult for example one wrong planed maneuer - a curve after an Immelmann or two steep ones in a row and your plane goes down. (page 18 - forbidden maneuvers)

    We have youngsters and newbies at the tables.



    We can count the kills at the table, using a piece of paper or a sheet to keep record. I'm shure there are many situations where we have to talk about. Remember when Watchdog and me finally shot down Nightbomber's Caproni Ca.4 the same time. We'll find for everything a solution.



    ...and we can't fix everything before the tournament. But one of the imortant points is the question of collisions.

    That's something where I prefer really the house rule: Planes only collide when the base overlaps the center dot of the other base (attending flight altitude and climb markers)

  17. #217

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    I can't remember how we treat explosions last year, but I think we didn't use them.

    What does fulll RAP rules mean to you? All options? That will be difficult for example one wrong planed maneuer - a curve after an Immelmann or two steep ones in a row and your plane goes down. (page 18 - forbidden maneuvers)

    We have youngsters and newbies at the tables.



    We can count the kills at the table, using a piece of paper or a sheet to keep record. I'm shure there are many situations where we have to talk about. Remember when Watchdog and me finally shot down Nightbomber's Caproni Ca.4 the same time. We'll find for everything a solution.



    ...and we can't fix everything before the tournament. But one of the imortant points is the question of collisions.

    That's something where I prefer really the house rule: Planes only collide when the base overlaps the center dot of the other base (attending flight altitude and climb markers)
    What he said. Agreed.

  18. #218

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    We can agree on anything. The most important thing is not to get butt-hurt when your favourite rule is not there and keep the spirits high .

  19. #219

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    What Lino22 said.

    As for collisions, I would recommend using the collision cards.



    It adds a very quick minigame that can be fun, as long as the cards are drawn randomly, otherwise everyone will simply bank right.

  20. #220

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    Nice cards! Does anyone have them printed?

  21. #221

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    If I might make a recommendation for the true out-of-towners, on my last trip to Prague I found a place called "Folklore Garden."

    It is 'touristy" and, sad fact, has many tour buses with noisy folks come there. On the other hand, it was a wonderful evening and I counted about 19 different nationalities present. The folk music and dance are excellent. The price includes pretty good food and beverages (yes, Staropramen was the beer offered-- and all you wanted) and the price even includes transportation if you call them for a reservation. We spent our last evening there and, for a trifle extra, got them to taxi us to the airport. http://www.folkloregarden.cz/ I would go back.

  22. #222

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    Those cards remind me of the old American Heritage _Dogfight_ combat-resolution system: Attacker chooses an available card, Defender has to have available the correct counter to it.

  23. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by kduke42 View Post
    If I might make a recommendation for the true out-of-towners, on my last trip to Prague I found a place called "Folklore Garden."

    It is 'touristy" and, sad fact, has many tour buses with noisy folks come there. On the other hand, it was a wonderful evening and I counted about 19 different nationalities present. The folk music and dance are excellent. The price includes pretty good food and beverages (yes, Staropramen was the beer offered-- and all you wanted) and the price even includes transportation if you call them for a reservation. We spent our last evening there and, for a trifle extra, got them to taxi us to the airport. http://www.folkloregarden.cz/ I would go back.
    Thanks for the tip, but the cost of the menu for one person there is 1000 CZK, that is roughly 50 USD/40 EUR. It is what we here call a "tourist trap".

  24. #224

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    The cost of the menu for one person there is 3 airplanes. I count in airplanes now.

  25. #225

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    Marechallannes is right. I'll refrase What about this, than:

    1. Forbidden maneuver is immediately changed with straight card

    2. Boom card is treated exactly like collision. In addition, it counts as major damage (pilot or engine). If you get pilot/boom, engine/boom, boom/boom,combination during the game (anytime) you are shot down.

    3. Speaking of collisions (I'm closer to the Peg Rule, but cards also can be fun), I suggest use of 2 A cards (instead of 1C) with all damage aplied (including Jammed cards, which, in this case, would affect you, and not your opponent).

    4. Victories.
    a) Who shoots last, gets the victory (I discovered hot water, did I ). If there's two or more shooters, they split victory if they all scored points in a round when opponent is shot down. Player who zeroed gets nothing.
    b) Plane shot down because of Flame (it happens before the turn). Victory goes to one who set him on fire. If he had misfortune to take Flame from various players, victory is split among them. If he is shot down while in Flame (during the turn) it counts as usual victory (see 4.a)

    5. Point system (if we use it) usually says: 2 points for enemy shot down, 1 for enemy out of table, -1 for you shot down.
    But, having option of shared victories, I'm suggesting some changes. Multiplying all scores with 6 would allow easier counting (and avoid odd numbers and bizarre fractions). So, you get:
    12 points for victory by single opponent.
    6 points each for shared victory (2 players).
    4 points each for shared victory (3 players).
    3 points each for shared victory (4 players).
    2 points each for shared victory (more than 4 players ).
    -6 points if you are shot down
    -3 points if you leave the field (it would be difficult to calculate otherwise )

    I believe this covers lot of situations.


    But, It would still be fine to use "Victories in a Row" system
    Last edited by Пилот; 05-19-2013 at 01:57.

  26. #226

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    5. Point system

    We'll need a referee for this point system.

    I'm afraid you'll have no time for gaming then, Nemanja.

  27. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    5. Point system

    We'll need a referee for this point system.

    I'm afraid you'll have no time for gaming then, Nemanja.
    Piece of paper and sense of honour are enough, but, as I said [ceterum censeo mode] victories in a row is a good system [/ceterum censeo mode]

  28. #228

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    Frankly, I think the simpler system for counting victories we use, the better.

    I am against counting victories in row and resetting them after you get shot down. This may cause bad blood if others shoot down someone with a good score. In my opinion you score a kill, you get a kill point. Remember, people will fly various planes in various missions. I would prefer preventing anyone being upset.

  29. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by Watchdog View Post
    Frankly, I think the simpler system for counting victories we use, the better.

    I am against counting victories in row and resetting them after you get shot down.

    ...
    Exactly my opinion.

    Scored 2 aerial victories (1x WWI & 1x WW II) at the last SummerCon and was shot down in the last mission as a Stuka pilot.

    I don't want to go home without an approved victory.

  30. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by Watchdog View Post
    Frankly, I think the simpler system for counting victories we use, the better.
    I don't even use "kills" as a measuring tool -- I use "damage delivered". Who's actually getting more experience -- the guy who fires one shot, and just happens to hit a fuel line; or the guy who's getting lots of opportunities to get his eye in?

  31. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    I don't even use "kills" as a measuring tool -- I use "damage delivered". Who's actually getting more experience -- the guy who fires one shot, and just happens to hit a fuel line; or the guy who's getting lots of opportunities to get his eye in?
    Well, the associated bookkeeping would kind of contradict my attempt to come up with a simple system.

  32. #232

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    I must admit, historicaly, only victories are important. On the other hand, you could hardly score 3 victories acompanied by 3 times being shot down.
    If we tend to get some ballance and make things simple, than 2 pts. for victory and -1 pt. for being shot down (or some other ratio) sounds fine - if we have to have point system.

    For me, main point of our joint pragueing is to have fun, so point system actualy isn't necessary.

    But, if beer would be warm, I'll curse you

  33. #233

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    Curse yourself if your beer gets warm.



    We have to plan the beer logistics careful.



    There is a fridge in the game store, but we have to refill first. Am I right?

  34. #234

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    One or two for me at the start only if I come by car from Residence Bologna picking up David and Thomas if they stay there as well

  35. #235

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    There is a fridge in the game store, but we have to refill first. Am I right?
    Since we are going to be there on Friday already, we can fill the fridge then for Saturday.

    I hope nobody plans to get really drunk there though, I do not think the shop owner would be too pleased.

  36. #236

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    Dear Jan, do not you remember how awfully sober we were last time at the Club?

  37. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by Watchdog View Post
    Well, the associated bookkeeping would kind of contradict my attempt to come up with a simple system.
    Basic addition is excessive?

  38. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Basic addition is excessive?
    Well, there is a difference between counting kills and counting how much damage each plane suffered from whom for the whole game. This would have to be written down secretely by the owner of the plane (so that it is not revealed to the opponents) and then counted after the game.

  39. #239

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbomber View Post
    Dear Jan, do not you remember how awfully sober we were last time at the Club?
    Well, I do not mind having a few beer during the games, and I am sure all those who are going to drink beer there are reasonable adults who know when to stop.

  40. #240

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    If i get drunk i am off of the mat. That's for sure. I'd get just a little happy and after the game phase we can proceed to the other one and get hammered in a local pub . Just a suggestion indeed ...

  41. #241

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    Frankly we always have stick in one hand and a drink in the other during our games Last year after the event Sven and Jan joined our team and we had a great beertime at night in the Old Town

  42. #242

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    Quote Originally Posted by Watchdog View Post
    Since we are going to be there on Friday already, we can fill the fridge then for Saturday.

    I hope nobody plans to get really drunk there though, I do not think the shop owner would be too pleased.
    My plan is simple:

    Playing the whole weekend in a Luftwaffe pilot's uniform, to impress and distract other gamers.

    !!! Drink a Schnaps for every aerial victory !!!

    Invite a Luftwaffehelferin to hold my hand when being shot down or lying drunk under the table.

    Invite another Luftwaffehelferin to move my plane on the gaming table follwing exactly my maneuvering orders.

    Rent a guard dog to protect me versus partisans who try to sabotage my Messerschmitt figther plane.

    Last edited by Marechallannes; 05-22-2013 at 05:56.

  43. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    My plan is simple:

    !!! Drink a Schnaps for every aerial victory !!!
    Hopefully slyivovitza!

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchdog View Post
    Since we are going to be there on Friday already, we can fill the fridge then for Saturday.

    I hope nobody plans to get really drunk there though, I do not think the shop owner would be too pleased.
    Define
    Quote Originally Posted by Watchdog View Post
    really drunk


    Don't worry

  44. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marechallannes View Post
    My plan is simple:

    Playing the whole weekend in a Luftwaffe pilot's uniform, to impress and distract other gamers.

    !!! Drink a Schnaps for every aerial victory !!!

    Invite a Luftwaffehelferin to hold my hand when being shot down or lying drunk under the table.

    Invite another Luftwaffehelferin to move my plane on the gaming table follwing exactly my maneuvering orders.

    Rent a guard dog to protect me versus partisans who try to sabotage my Messerschmitt figther plane.


    WoW! Go for it, Sven! Fancy clothes, no doubt about it!
    I especially like the victory toast
    By the way - does the German crew plan to have some kind of special uniforms/shirts?
    We ... have

  45. #245

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    No, just my Prague 2012 revival shirt.

    Haven't heard from Kaiser, if he joins us now, or not.

    So it's just Marcus & me at the moment.

    We tried to persuade a female colleague to join us in Prague, because her parents came from Poland. She understands (and speaks) Polish and could inform us about your commandos and flight advices so we would be able to gain air superiority.

    ...but she looked only astonished at us.

  46. #246

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    Quote Originally Posted by Watchdog View Post
    Well, there is a difference between counting kills and counting how much damage each plane suffered from whom for the whole game. This would have to be written down secretely by the owner of the plane (so that it is not revealed to the opponents) and then counted after the game.
    So: Pencil, paper (I use 3"x5" cards), and about thirty seconds post-match to tally up the scores. I'm not seeing a problem here. (The only problem I've run across is keeping damage separated so everyone gets the damage points total they deserve.)
    Last edited by csadn; 05-22-2013 at 12:46.

  47. #247

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    So: Pencil, paper (I use 3"x5" cards), and about thirty seconds post-match to tally up the scores. I'm not seeing a problem here. (The only problem I've run across is keeping damage separated so everyone gets the damage points total they deserve.)
    It does sound as an interesting idea, however, I would still prefer not to have to do the additional bookkeeping for the Con.

    A kill is a kill. A WWI pilot's score was not counted based on how many holes he managed to make in the enemy planes, rather on how many planes did he shoot down.

  48. #248

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    Let's count victories only; however when I bring back memories of flying two seaters and bombers during Con 2012 I can not beat the feeling the big birds drivers have less chances to score. On the other hand one can get a bottle of very good German wine being the most effective bomber pilots

  49. #249

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    I am going to donate a Gotha G.V repainted as an Austro-Hungarian Gotha G.IV as one of the prizes, probably for the campaign, if there is any interest for a campaign, that is.

    I am going to create the promised spreadsheet this weekend.

  50. #250

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    The damage points are a random element in the game. You can read your opponent right, you can outmaneuver him and then hit him with a big 0 or end up with your machine gun jammed. The damage points speak about your luck more than capability. I would also vote for kills. They feel less random-based. Maybe some simple shared-kill point system would help. Maybe.

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