He 111 First Mission "out of the box"

[Nightbomber]

I just couldn't wait to gather my flight group for a next session and decided to test one of my newly purchased Heinkels on a solo mission using automated flight rules from Rules & Accessories WGF Pack, tuning them slightly for a WGS bomber.

Here you have a brief AAR.

My goal was to recreate one of typical BoB hunt for a returning bomber performed by one of the 303rd Polish Squadron pilots, Josef Frantisek, who used to bounce on lonely German bombers on their way back to France. I was flying as Frantisek, trying to shoot down the Heinkel in a 1:1 encounter.

I placed the Hurry at the He six and manage to keep flying right behind the bomber which has to cross 150 cm of my gaming table to "get to France".
Although it seemed to be a perfect shooting position, I found the bomber out of my gun sight and arc of fire several times. Unfortunately the bomber's gunners did their job well - you will see the butcher's list down below.
















Frantisek could not damage neither engines nor eliminate any crewmen and barely made home with a coughing plane's engine. His crate had to be scratched out. Heinkel got a 50% damage to the fuselage and probably did not return to operational status as well.

Well, you can say it's a historically accurate and probable result! If you are not a lucky git, attacking a bomber without a wingman support may be a risky business

[jbmacek]

Nice. I'm trying to avoid the temptation of sinking more money into WWII, but this isn't helping any.

[flash]

Great pics mate ! .... Now get on with mission 12 !!!

[Nightbomber]

Great pics mate ! .... Now get on with mission 12 !!!

... you know, the Heinkel was so tempting!...and I was trying to save Britain! (if it can be an excuse)

[Marechallannes]

Nice little scenario, Andrzej.

Did you use the aim bonus for the bomber's gunner?

[Nightbomber]

Nice little scenario, Andrzej.

Did you use the aim bonus for the bomber's gunner?

No I didn't, for simplicity reasons. There were two gunners who were fending of my crate: the dorsal one (III) and the fuselage one (IV). It would be messy to track which one scored which hits, but of course it is a manageable task. I also didn't use that option for the Hurry.

[Marechallannes]

That's ok.

I plan - not to allow - the aim bonus for WW II bomber gunners (and Me110 gunners), but keep it for the fighter pilots and pilots of dive bombers.

It's one thing to keep a bomber in the crosshairs of you fighter plane gunsight and another thing to be repeated shot wit a single 7,9 mm machine gun.

[Marechallannes]

Another point for your AAR:

Did you manage to place some close distance damages to the He 111?

I think it's essential to make in the half ruler distance to really damage a bomber.

You can double your damage and the bomber still deals out one "A" damage (He110)



I'll start a scenario at the eastern front with Yaks as soon as the WW II bombers arrive in Germany.

[Nightbomber]

One after mission conclusion: the bombers are FAST on a gaming table due to the base size. There is no real chance to pass over them and return with guns blazing...The real problem is to catch up with them.

[Nightbomber]

Another point for your AAR:

Did you manage to place some close distance damages to the He 111?

I think it's essential to make in the half ruler distance to really damage a bomber.

Yeah, I had noticed that opportunity and was trying to get there, but didn't get that close (half a ruler) even once!

[Kaiser]

One after mission conclusion: the bombers are FAST on a gaming table due to the base size. There is no real chance to pass over them and return with guns blazing...The real problem is to catch up with them.

The bombers have the same base length as the regular fighters. But ther base is double the width.


The He111 (XA-Deck) is actually very slow. Even slower than a dive bomber (I-Deck). The B-25 (XB-Deck) is faster than the He111 but still slower than the I-Deck.

[Nightbomber]

The bombers have the same base length as the regular fighters. But ther base is double the width.

FALSE. A bomber's base is about 1 cm longer than a fighter's one.

[Kaiser]

*measures* Oops you`re right!
Did they change that or was my eyesight always off?
This makes the He111 ca 5mm faster than the Ju87.

[Nightbomber]

That's why I was really surprised having to speed up all the time going after the Heinkel. The base length plus a blue arrow ahead make for a race to catch the bomber

[Angiolillo]

Bases are longer, but the WW2 X... decks have shorter arrows to compensate.

[Nightbomber]

Thanks God we have the Designer here Andrea! I'm waiting for other forumers's impressions. My next scenario will take place over the Eastern Front. Will send a lonely Yak against a Heinkel. Let's see...

[csadn]

My goal was to recreate one of typical BoB hunt for a returning bomber performed by one of the 303rd Polish Squadron pilots, Josef Frantisek, who used to bounce on lonely German bombers on their way back to France. I was flying as Frantisek, trying to shoot down the Heinkel in a 1:1 encounter.

I think I see your problem: You're using a MG-only Hurricane. Bombers warrant cannons.

[Kaiser]

That's why I was really surprised having to speed up all the time going after the Heinkel. The base length plus a blue arrow ahead make for a race to catch the bomber

Correct. The Hurricane is only 1cm faster than the He111.

[Marechallannes]

Ok, the returning bomber seems very fast.

Are there special rules, when the bomber has his full bombload on board - only slow maneuvers or something like that?

[Kaiser]

+1 climb counter needed to gain a level of altitude.
Two non-Steep maneuvers needed between Steeps.
No Immelmann/Split-S allowed.

This are the WGF rules but i guess the WGS rules won`t be different.

[Nightbomber]

Ok, the returning bomber seems very fast.

Are there special rules, when the bomber has his full bombload on board - only slow maneuvers or something like that?

During my play I took the bomber maneuver cards at random (randomizing speeds as well), according to WGF auto rules and there were many turns and stalls. I can hardly imagine catching a bomber flying straight ahead with blue maneuver only in an effective half a ruler fire distance. It's possible, but it would take some time and if a bomber make a sudden slip or turn and you fly off a straight route, there you will loose another turns to catch it.
I'm not sure (no cards in sight), but think in case of WGF bombers there was a much more significant speed difference between fighters and bombers.

[Lloydthegamer]

Hmmm, a quick trip to Wikipediea (I know, everything on Wiki is accurate.) showed that both the B25 and He 111 had top speeds of roughly 270 mph. B25s cruise was 230, no cruise given for the He. The Dauntless top speed was given as 255 and its cruise as 185. The Stuka was quoted as 242 mph and the Val depending on the model had a top speed of 205 to 230. I know that top speeds can vary quite a bit depending on payload, height, and condition of the aircraft so I assume these figures are for unloaded, good conditioned planes flying at optimum altitudes. Still, it is interesting to note that both B25 and He are faster than any of the I deck planes, but in the game they are slower. Shouldn't they be moving faster than the I deck planes? Lloyd

The bombers have the same base length as the regular fighters. But ther base is double the width.


The He111 (XA-Deck) is actually very slow. Even slower than a dive bomber (I-Deck). The B-25 (XB-Deck) is faster than the He111 but still slower than the I-Deck.

[Lloydthegamer]

Then how did they shoot all those bombers down during the Battle of Britain? I don't think either the Spit or the Hurricane had cannon at that point, or did they? Lloyd

I think I see your problem: You're using a MG-only Hurricane. Bombers warrant cannons.

[Lloydthegamer]

Great AAR, Andrzej, too bad the bandit got away! Thanks for sharing. Lloyd

[Zoe Brain]

Bases are longer, but the WW2 X... decks have shorter arrows to compensate.

AGH! Still that means we have more opportunities for slow aircraft on fighter-length bases.

From what I can see, scale is 1cm = 50 kmh. That means an aircraft on a normal 6cm base moves 300 km/h if it plays a (hypothetical) zero-length card, 600 km/h if it plays a 6cm length arrow card (as in A,B,E,F,G,H).

If bombers have a 7cm length base, that means a 350 km/h base move.

[Zoe Brain]

Then how did they shoot all those bombers down during the Battle of Britain? I don't think either the Spit or the Hurricane had cannon at that point, or did they? Lloyd

No they didn't have cannon, and bombers after they dropped their loads were difficult to catch up with. However, when loaded, they were a lot slower and less able to turn.
Rules should be that they can only perform slow maneuvers, and one of those has to be a stall when carrying a full bombload. At minimum.

In addition, in order to get anything like historical results, there have to be speed bonuses for diving attacks.

[Carl_Brisgamer]

No they didn't have cannon, and bombers after they dropped their loads were difficult to catch up with. However, when loaded, they were a lot slower and less able to turn.
Rules should be that they can only perform slow maneuvers, and one of those has to be a stall when carrying a full bombload. At minimum.

In addition, in order to get anything like historical results, there have to be speed bonuses for diving attacks.

Well said Zoe. I have house ruled that fully loaded WGS bombers can only perform slow manouevers. One of the tactics for defending fighters was to put enough pressure on the enemy bombers to force them to ditch their bombloads in the hope they could escape.

[Nightbomber]

Well said Zoe. I have house ruled that fully loaded WGS bombers can only perform slow manouevers. One of the tactics for defending fighters was to put enough pressure on the enemy bombers to force them to ditch their bombloads in the hope they could escape.

Sounds logically for me. I wonder if we see such rules in the upcoming R&A Pack for WGS...

[csadn]

Then how did they shoot all those bombers down during the Battle of Britain? I don't think either the Spit or the Hurricane had cannon at that point, or did they? Lloyd

The first cannon-armed Spitfires (Mk.s IB and IIB -- the "B" indicating the wing designed to mount the Hispano-Suiza 20mms of infamous memory) were deployed during the BoB -- IBs around June '40, IIBs during August. Hurricanes with cannon didn't appear until early '41.

I suspect the bombers shot down were the result of massed MG fire (one Hurricane model had *12* 0.30s...), and persistence on the pilots' part -- put enough rounds into a target, and one will eventually hit something important. :) But for game purposes -- esp. given "time-limit" matches like the one described -- one needs to inflict as much damage in as short a time as possible; to that end, one needs C-chit draws.

[flash]

19 Squadron used the cannon armed Spits in the BoB - they had so many problems with them jamming that they asked for their 8 gun Spits back - a request that was granted in September 1940 !

[Nightbomber]

19 Squadron used the cannon armed Spits in the BoB - they had so many problems with them jamming that they asked for their 8 gun Spits back - a request that was granted in September 1940 !

Interesting!
Frankly I prefer B than C armament in WGS too.

[Lloydthegamer]

Here's a little tidbit I read yesterday, "Douglas SBDs were claimed by the manufacturer to have a top speed of 250 mph, but actual speed in service was less, and the speed that counted most, when lugging a bomb, was pegged at an agonizing 150 mph." Lloyd

Well said Zoe. I have house ruled that fully loaded WGS bombers can only perform slow manouevers. One of the tactics for defending fighters was to put enough pressure on the enemy bombers to force them to ditch their bombloads in the hope they could escape.

[Nightbomber]

Here's a little tidbit I read yesterday, "Douglas SBDs were claimed by the manufacturer to have a top speed of 250 mph, but actual speed in service was less, and the speed that counted most, when lugging a bomb, was pegged at an agonizing 150 mph." Lloyd

Another interesting fact. I wonder if anybody knows something similar as far as Heinkels are concerned. R&A Pack should definitely provide a relevant rule for that.

[Baldrick62]

I suspect the bombers shot down were the result of massed MG fire (one Hurricane model had *12* 0.30s...),

From Wiki: Hurricane Mk IIA Series 2 was equipped with new and slightly longer propeller spinner and new wing mounting 12 x .303 in (7.7 mm) Browning machine guns. The first aircraft were built in October 1940 and were renamed Mark IIB in April 1941.

Far too late for the Battle of Britain by the time they would have reached sqn service.

[csadn]

Far too late for the Battle of Britain by the time they would have reached sqn service.

I included that as trivia only -- should have pointed that out; my fault.

When's that Beaufighter scheduled.... :)

[Stormkahn]

I suspect the bombers shot down were the result of massed MG fire (one Hurricane model had *12* 0.30s...), and persistence on the pilots' part -- put enough rounds into a target, and one will eventually hit something important. But for game purposes -- esp. given "time-limit" matches like the one described -- one needs to inflict as much damage in as short a time as possible; to that end, one needs C-chit draws.

You may also want to consider that the game mechanic is a random chit draw which is the equivalent of the pilot randomly spraying bullets, in reality they would pick a spot (cockpit/engines) and hammer it. A lot of the gun camera footage shows a concentration of fire when tailing.

IIRC the late war anti bomber tactic was to go head on and blaze away at the cockpit.

just my 2p,

cheers,

Dave.

[Jager]

You may also want to consider that the game mechanic is a random chit draw which is the equivalent of the pilot randomly spraying bullets, in reality they would pick a spot (cockpit/engines) and hammer it. A lot of the gun camera footage shows a concentration of fire when tailing.

IIRC the late war anti bomber tactic was to go head on and blaze away at the cockpit.

just my 2p,

cheers,

Dave.

You get this if you use the optional rule for aim; every turn firing after the first the target draws an additional "A" damage. So just hunker down on their tails, and blast away. The tactic of headon attacks was done because that tended to be a weak area in the bombers fire zones. The Germans are well known for doing this (resulting in armour and powered turrets being added to the B-17s and B-24s), but IIRC the Brits did it to the He-111s also, for the same reasons. It's harder to armour a greenhouse too!
Karl

[grief]

I think the optional aim rule is a must for tackeling 111's, i tried to take one down with a couple of spits and with the 111 pilot flying erratically the spits could'nt get a shot off and a lot of heads were scratched

[grief]

Are the 111's white bar markings representing squadron leader as i have a couple of them and one may need a paint touch up

[Lloydthegamer]

Just hunkering down behind a B17/B24 combat box was not a healthy place to be. The bombers were quite good targets, but so was the attacking fighter and there were a lot of MGs firing backward. I believe the highest scoring bomber gunner was a tail gunner, not sure which type of plane he was in, but I believe the guy made "ace". Not bad for a guy technically not flying the plane. Lloyd

You get this if you use the optional rule for aim; every turn firing after the first the target draws an additional "A" damage. So just hunker down on their tails, and blast away. The tactic of headon attacks was done because that tended to be a weak area in the bombers fire zones. The Germans are well known for doing this (resulting in armour and powered turrets being added to the B-17s and B-24s), but IIRC the Brits did it to the He-111s also, for the same reasons. It's harder to armour a greenhouse too!
Karl

[FrankJamison]

SSgt Michael Arooth was credited with 17 victories in 14 missions as a B-17 tail gunner. Wow.


http://militarytimes.com/citations-m...ipientid=22831

On that date, Staff Sergeant Arooth shot down three enemy airplanes and even though the airplane's oxygen line was broken, one gun was jammed, and he was severely wounded, he remained at his post, repaired his gun, resumed fire, and destroyed the fourth plane.

Just hunkering down behind a B17/B24 combat box was not a healthy place to be. The bombers were quite good targets, but so was the attacking fighter and there were a lot of MGs firing backward. I believe the highest scoring bomber gunner was a tail gunner, not sure which type of plane he was in, but I believe the guy made "ace". Not bad for a guy technically not flying the plane. Lloyd