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Thread: SE 5as & Nieuport 17/23 Special shooting rule?

  1. #1

    Question SE 5as & Nieuport 17/23 Special shooting rule?

    Maybe I should have posted this down in the Rules section but it is more to open up a discussion on the subject.

    Some time back we did have a query on the fact that the SE5a had 2 separate M/guns & therefore what should happen when you draw a Gun Jam damage.
    Well since then we have seen WW1 art which shows the Lewis being used to fire upwards & of course Albert Ball used that action to great effect so how about this for a Rule Idea.

    Any Aircraft with a Lewis on a Foster Mount can Fire at an Aircraft 1 level higher if within one ruler length. Also if a Scout is fitted with a B firing Vickers & a B firing Lewis on the top wing both guns jam if a Red Jam is drawn but if a Green Jam is drawn then only one of the 2 Guns Jam.

    What are your thoughts Folks?

  2. #2

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    Some time ago I posted a few optional rules here:

    http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1952...edback-welcome

    One is this:

    Jamming twin guns (A firing planes)

    When you fire with an A weapon, that represents twin guns, you could jam one of the machineguns or, more rarely, both of them.
    If you are at short distance, you jam a machinegun if target picks up a jammed Damage card, you jam both of them if he picks up two of them. Firing at long distance, you jam both of them if the target picks the 0 red jammed Damage card, only one if he picks the 2 red or a green jammed Damage card.
    Planes jamming a single gun take three jammed counters. Each turn after moving, the player can decide if unjam the jammed machinegun or if they want to fire with the remaining one. If they unjam, they discard a token; if they fire they do it at B capability (and they normally jam this second weapon if a jamming B card is picked by the target). The weapon is unjammed if the player unjam it after three consecutive maneuvers. It is allowed to stop unjamming to fire with the other weapon at any moment, but the jamned counters are immediately restored to three.
    If both weapons are jammed, they are unjammed at the same time after the same three consecutive maneuvers. No dseparate account of unjamming is necessary.


    You could decide to apply it just to Se5a, Ni.17/23, twin MGs SPAD VII and the like.

  3. #3

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    We basically play it the way Andrea suggests, but since the topic has come up again, let me ask this question. Were the Lewis and Vickers linked? That is, did the pilot have to pull two separate triggers to fire them both, or would one trigger control them both?
    Bruce

  4. #4

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    Here is a picture of an SE5a reproduction cockpit clearly showing two split triggers, so the pilot could fire one or both at his discretion.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  5. #5

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    Here is another picture showing a pilot with the Lewis gun pulled back in an upward firing position but this time using the trigger on the stock.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #6

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    I am glad you have raised this matter, and to apply the gun jam as the colour on the card indicates, as for a two seater seemed to be the way to go.
    I have often wondered if planes with the top mounted gun should draw a B card for each gun rather than A cards. Taken in conjunction with the colour code for each gun, this would solve the problem for Albert.
    I never raised this here until now, but as Barry started the thread ,and Andrea gave such a good answer, felt that this was the right time to give my thoughts on it.
    Rob.

  7. #7

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    You didn't mention it when I raised this point two years ago Rob ! I concur with your thoughts Baz but I would say if firing up then you should be at half ruler range. Andrea has outlined more or less what was discussed before. Great minds and all that !
    Last edited by flash; 10-04-2012 at 12:37.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by gully_raker View Post
    What are your thoughts Folks?
    Given the difficulty of making the "schrage Musik" shot: 'Round here, the rule is "if the plane has an over-wing gun, it may fire a single-B-draw shot when overlapping another plane" (on the rare occasions we use altitude, the firer must also be lower than the target).

    As to the jamming issue: IIRC, the "no firing" time is supposed to represent the pilot's effort to unjam the gun -- which means he'd be too busy to fire the unjammed gun. So a jam of either gun precludes firing either; the pilot is Otherwise Occupied.

  9. #9

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    I am glad you have raised this matter, and to apply the gun jam as the colour on the card indicates, as for a two seater seemed to be the way to go.
    I have often wondered if planes with the top mounted gun should draw a B card for each gun rather than A cards. Taken in conjunction with the colour code for each gun, this would solve the problem for Albert.
    I never raised this here until now, but as Barry started the thread ,and Andrea gave such a good answer, felt that this was the right time to give my thoughts on it.
    Rob.
    Hi Rob!
    I do like your Idea of using 2 x B Damage Cards & then using the Red or Green Gun Jam results.
    I will discuss with our WoG club players to see their thoughts.
    Also Andrea's thoughts seem pretty accurate to me. Pilot couldnt try to unjam & shoot at the same time!

  10. #10

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    Two B damage cards don't work within the rules as it gives the target two chances for special damage. If you fire one MG it's a B card draw, if you fire 2 MG it's an A card draw. I don't think anyone could argue the wing mounted Lewis was a better proposition than two synchronised guns, otherwise by the end of WW1 all aircraft would have been so equipped. Albert Ball was a gifted and experienced fighter ace, but I would suggest most pilots lacked the skill or confidence to attack using the Lewis in the fashion described to attack from below. Much easier to point the nose of the aircraft and fly in that direction as you squeeze the trigger. Perhaps using the Lewis gun to shoot at higher targets could be an 'ace' skill?
    Last edited by Carl_Brisgamer; 10-05-2012 at 06:55.

  11. #11

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    The normal use was against a target in front of the plane for both machineguns. Accotrding to Bernardo Sclerandi (Gli Eserciti del Ventesimo Secolo, Curcio) the two machineguns of the Se5a were set to converge at 45 meters in front of the plane. This very interesting thread
    http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/20...tml#post122287
    gives a theorical distance of 250 yards, but then quotes 50 yards in practical use - fitting with Sclerandi.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    You didn't mention it when I raised this point two years ago Rob !
    I actually never quite made my mind up about if it was the best thing to do or not Dave, and actually stopped using the system after I stopped using Albert's machine, until recently when we came off Camels and started using the SE5s. Then it was for AI solo games and I had enough to do just working out the moves without picking extra cards for two guns. Also I did not know how the others would take it as the German aircraft did not have this option. So I just left it until it was raised again here.
    Rob.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Given the difficulty of making the "schrage Musik" shot: 'Round here, the rule is "if the plane has an over-wing gun, it may fire a single-B-draw shot when overlapping another plane" (on the rare occasions we use altitude, the firer must also be lower than the target).

    As to the jamming issue: IIRC, the "no firing" time is supposed to represent the pilot's effort to unjam the gun -- which means he'd be too busy to fire the unjammed gun. So a jam of either gun precludes firing either; the pilot is Otherwise Occupied.
    Probably the simple way to look at it Chris.
    I think I will revert back to the simple for my games along with you.
    Rob.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    Given the difficulty of making the "schrage Musik" shot: 'Round here, the rule is "if the plane has an over-wing gun, it may fire a single-B-draw shot when overlapping another plane" (on the rare occasions we use altitude, the firer must also be lower than the target).
    As to the jamming issue: IIRC, the "no firing" time is supposed to represent the pilot's effort to unjam the gun -- which means he'd be too busy to fire the unjammed gun. So a jam of either gun precludes firing either; the pilot is Otherwise Occupied.
    I like the 'overlap' idea Chris - gives these aircraft 'fangs' in a situation where firing not normally allowed. I would disagree with the jamming observation though as if one gun jams in the midst of an attack surely a pilot would ignore it & press on with the one working gun rather than break off the attack to fix the jammed one ?
    It would be better to have the option of either 'continue firing' or 'fix the jam' and once the latter has been selected then the three fix cycle must be completed before any other firing can take place. This would allow the pilot to engage targets with a B deck & to fix his jam in a 'quieter' moment.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    The normal use was against a target in front of the plane for both machineguns. Accotrding to Bernardo Sclerandi (Gli Eserciti del Ventesimo Secolo, Curcio) the two machineguns of the Se5a were set to converge at 45 meters in front of the plane. This very interesting thread
    what is 50 meters in game terms? (ruler distance I mean)

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    I would disagree with the jamming observation though as if one gun jams in the midst of an attack surely a pilot would ignore it & press on with the one working gun rather than break off the attack to fix the jammed one ?
    From what I've read of the topic: It took a pilot with high experience (and confidence) to ignore the jammed gun; usually when a gun jammed, the pilot focuses on getting it unjammed (natural thought process for pilots: "There is a problem; fix it"; which is why so many of them get killed in emergencies -- he spends so much time focusing on the problem, he forgets to Fly The Airplane -- or in this case, to make sure someone isn't sneaking up on him -- and by the time he comes up with a solution, he's in a 600-MPH uncontrolled vertical dive). So that's why I go with "fix the jam first".

    I suppose one could file "able to ignore a jammed gun" under one of the Ace abilities; not sure which one, tho'.

  17. #17

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    Aces did ignore that. Scaroni got a second machinegun on his Hanriot (fighting with higher ranks to get it) for the declared purpose of never worrying again if one of his two machineguns jammed. And it workled, as he noted on his diaries.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by flash View Post
    It would be better to have the option of either 'continue firing' or 'fix the jam' and once the latter has been selected then the three fix cycle must be completed before any other firing can take place. This would allow the pilot to engage targets with a B deck & to fix his jam in a 'quieter' moment.
    I like this! Could it be said that for an S.E.5.A etc, that the following might resolve the issue;

    Jam acquired via damage> Remove a Jammed token or fire using B damage. You may not do both until Jam is cleared.
    Engaging enemy at 'different altitudes' rules apply as normal. If you receive further Jam damage, you lose this bonus and must unblock both guns.

    The jam could last a few turns, or not. Depends on what the player decides. EDIT; Just seen your post in 'House Rules' Flash. Seems you already do this.
    Last edited by HTRAINo; 10-05-2012 at 17:05.

  19. #19

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    I have been using a similar modifiied rule for a couple of years now:

    “When subject to a single jammed card an ‘A’ firing aircraft takes and holds three jammed counters. Whilst the aircraft retains these jammed counters it is reduced to firing as a ‘B’ firing plane (representing a single gun jammed), until such time as the player declares they are clearing the jam. At that point the aircraft must spend three consecutive phases clearing the jammed gun. The aircraft discards one jammed counter after performing each of the next three manoeuvres, and may not fire during that time.”

  20. #20

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    Umm, gents, I'm sorry to change the subject for the moment, but our wonderful game designer, Andrea has over 500 posts and more than one year of service. The Col. needs to break out a medal for him. Then we can give him a big cheers at the officers mess!!! Until then, carry on gentlemen!!!

  21. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Aces did ignore that. Scaroni got a second machinegun on his Hanriot (fighting with higher ranks to get it) for the declared purpose of never worrying again if one of his two machineguns jammed. And it workled, as he noted on his diaries.
    So, it would be an Ace skill -- now what to call it?

    I'd suggest "Stay On Target", but I'd get beaten up by the locals for mentioning _Star Wars_ around here.... ;)

  22. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by csadn View Post
    ..It took a pilot with high experience (and confidence) to ignore the jammed gun.. I suppose one could file "able to ignore a jammed gun" under one of the Ace abilities; not sure which one, tho'.
    With Ace Abilities that can ignore jams altogether in existence it would be hard to sell an ability that ignores a jam in one gun but still leaves it jammed !
    If I was blatting away at my enemy & one of my gun systems jammed I wouldn't stop firing the other one to fix it if I was still in a position to cause damage and I'm pretty sure no-one else would either, that would make no sense at all. I would, however, fix it as soon as I could & it was safe to do so. This does give an advantage to a small number of aircraft with such a configuration but it is only a house rule, no matter how sensible, it may,or, may not appear. I like it because it adds a bit of variety and that, after all, is the spice of life.
    Last edited by flash; 10-07-2012 at 03:36.

  23. #23

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    Seems we drifted off the Foster-mounts rule, but a bit of clarification is needed.
    From what I've read, twin syncronized guns were linked so that if one jammed, the other couldn't fire. I've been told (maybe here) that this wasn't always the case. If so, what planes were linked and which weren't? Obviously, the Se-5a wasn't so you could keep firing your Lewis if the Vickers jammed.
    Also, it's pretty unrealistic to take off a jam marker if your doing anything but straights (some planes could lock their controls to make clearing the jam easier).
    I like the ace ability for using the under-shot with the Fosters mount. Not really thinking it's needed to ignore the jammed gun and use the remaining one, esp if you require straight flying to clear a jam. maybe make a WILL save
    Karl

  24. #24

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    Not sure we drifted but good question about what's linked Karl & I wish I knew the answer. I always treat twin synchro as linked myself as I have not seen evidence to the contrary yet (not that I have extensively searched for any!) & I'm only using the above mechanisms on kites with separate gun systems - N.17, SE5a for me currently though there are a few others. Flying straight whilst fixing jams has also been discussed & I play it as you do as a house rule but many will disagree with us !

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jager View Post
    From what I've read, twin syncronized guns were linked so that if one jammed, the other couldn't fire. I've been told (maybe here) that this wasn't always the case.
    Karl
    "Linked guns" doesn't make sense to me. I'm a scale modeler, WW1 is my favorite era, I've learned a good bit about the aircraft of WW1. The typical fuselage mounted, forward-firing twin guns were belt-fed weapons, each had it's own ammo feed. The guns are linked only to the extent that depressing the trigger on the stick causes both guns to fire. If one stops firing, the other would be unaffected-- when a gun jams, you can still pull the trigger, but nothing happens!

    Machine guns use some of the kinetic energy from the recoil of the fired round to extract the casing and seat the next round in the chamber. Jams come from three main causes:
    1. Defective round-- the round is properly seated, but didn't go off.
    2. The spent cartridge didn't eject properly, and got stuck in the breech area.
    3. The new round didn't load properly.

    Of the three conditions, #1 is usually the easiest to clear-- simply charging the gun will extract the bad round and put a new one in the breech. The other two can be a bear to clear. To get a sense of what it would be likie, imagine putting on heavy gloves, and then trying to operate a soda vending machine. Trying to get the dimes and quarters into the slot would be tough, as would getting the can of soda that got stuck in the chute out, when you hand barely fits in the hole! Now do it while trying to fly a plane when others are shooting at you!

  26. #26

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    We are playing the rule with the top mounted lewis that if it fires up it uses a B card, plane cannot also fire forward. If either gun fires and jams the player has the option of unjamming, after taking 3 jam counters, that gun as normal but cannot fire other gun. Or fires forward firing gun or top mounted lewis only as a B card gun. We have not come across a second jam whilst the first jam is unresolved. A bit much to lamp another 3 jam tokens on the second gun....or not?

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    We have not come across a second jam whilst the first jam is unresolved. A bit much to lamp another 3 jam tokens on the second gun....or not?

    I suspect you should really. Just depends how vindictive you are feeling on the day.
    I would personally say three cards on both guns are unjammed, otherwise you could miss half the game just unjamming guns, and that is no fun for you.
    Rob.

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    Some time ago I posted a few optional rules here:

    http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1952...edback-welcome

    One is this:

    Jamming twin guns (A firing planes)

    When you fire with an A weapon, that represents twin guns, you could jam one of the machineguns or, more rarely, both of them.
    If you are at short distance, you jam a machinegun if target picks up a jammed Damage card, you jam both of them if he picks up two of them. Firing at long distance, you jam both of them if the target picks the 0 red jammed Damage card, only one if he picks the 2 red or a green jammed Damage card.
    Planes jamming a single gun take three jammed counters. Each turn after moving, the player can decide if unjam the jammed machinegun or if they want to fire with the remaining one. If they unjam, they discard a token; if they fire they do it at B capability (and they normally jam this second weapon if a jamming B card is picked by the target). The weapon is unjammed if the player unjam it after three consecutive maneuvers. It is allowed to stop unjamming to fire with the other weapon at any moment, but the jamned counters are immediately restored to three.
    If both weapons are jammed, they are unjammed at the same time after the same three consecutive maneuvers. No dseparate account of unjamming is necessary.


    You could decide to apply it just to Se5a, Ni.17/23, twin MGs SPAD VII and the like.
    WOW! Thanks Andrea, this has been one of our house rules for about 2 years now. We've always played this way for wing mounted Lewis MG's and twin Vickers.

  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by rcboater View Post
    ...

    Machine guns use some of the kinetic energy from the recoil of the fired round to extract the casing and seat the next round in the chamber. Jams come from three main causes:
    1. Defective round-- the round is properly seated, but didn't go off.
    2. The spent cartridge didn't eject properly, and got stuck in the breech area.
    3. The new round didn't load properly.

    ...
    The types of ammunition used in the Vickers/Lewis and Spandau/Parabellum/Schwartlose is rifle ammunition. Rifle cartridges are loaded to higher pressures. When used in a full-automatic weapon a small amount of the expanding gas driving the bullet down the barrel is bled off and redirected to cycle the bolt thus ejecting the spent cartridge and stripping a new round from the magazine and loading it in the chamber. This type of weapon is referred to as "gas operated". Recoil operated MG's are for lower pressure rounds such as pistol rounds, e.g., .45 ACP or 9mm Luger/Parabellum. The "recoil operated" is the type that uses the kinetic energy you referred to in operating the action. Hope this is helpful. Btw, firearms are my area of expertise.

  30. #30

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    It is good to get feedback Andrea. I have always used the A double gun as jammed whenever a card was drawn, but if an overwing gun is mounted, let it continue opperating at B damage levels unless a second card came up, in which case it too jammed. The caveat being that to unblock your jammed gun you needed three turns of level flight with no other action taking place.
    Rob.

  31. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    We are playing the rule with the top mounted lewis that if it fires up it uses a B card, plane cannot also fire forward. If either gun fires and jams the player has the option of unjamming, after taking 3 jam counters, that gun as normal but cannot fire other gun. Or fires forward firing gun or top mounted lewis only as a B card gun. We have not come across a second jam whilst the first jam is unresolved. A bit much to lamp another 3 jam tokens on the second gun....or not?
    From a historical accuracy point of view, the second jam card should add 3 more tokens, as each gun/ammo comb is an independent system. Clearing the misfire on gun #1 won't resolve the jammed cartridge on gun #2.

    From a playability perspective, I'd say it depends on where you fall on the "reality/detail vs. Playability/simplicity" spectrum....

  32. #32

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    Seeing that all twin machineguns jam indipendently (leaving freezing apart) and going for a rule that can be both simplier and compatible with the bullet checker rule, I'd write today:

    "When an A firing plane jam, one or both of the two firing machineguns are jammed. If the shot is at short range, a jamming symbol on one of the two damage cards mean one machinegun jammed, the symbol on both cards mean two machineguns jammed. If the shot is at long range draw a second A damage card: if there is a jam symbol both machineguns are jammed, if not only one is. In any case this second card is reshuffled back in its deck.
    A-firing planes jamming a single gun take three jammed counters (or 2 or 4 if rules on Fast hammer skill, rookies, or wounded pilots apply). Each turn after moving, the player can decide if unjam the jammed machinegun or if they want to fire with the remaining one. If they unjam, they discard a token; if they fire they do it at B capability (and they normally jam this second weapon if a jamming B card is picked by the target). The weapon is unjammed if the player unjam it after three (or 2or 4) consecutive maneuvers. It is allowed to stop unjamming to fire with the other weapon at any moment, but the jamned counters are immediately restored to the original amount of three (or 2 or 4).
    If an A-firing plane jams both machineguns, at the same time or in different phases, accounting for unjamming them is kept separately and they can not be unjammed at the same time. So normally after three phases the first of the two will be unjammed and the player will have the choice to fire at B or to unjam the other."

    Fast hammer could be an ace skill allowing to unjam in 2 phases instead than 3 (3 instead than 4 if wounded).

  33. #33

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    That makes a lot of sense. For playability reasons, I think this should be an optional rule (like altitude); that is, those who want to keep the game simpler keep the standard jamming rules for both A and B guns (with the benefit of being back to full A strength after three jam counters are taken off and the price of no firing after the jam), and those who yearn for more realism and detail can use the optional rule (with the benefit of being able to fire on a B after the first jam but having the potential of having to clear six jam counters to get back to A firing if a double jam occurs). There have been times when I would have loved to be able to shot on a B deck after a jam, like when you are perfectly lined up behind your enemy....

  34. #34

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    We just tend to say you can't start clearing a jam until you stop firing your other gun. If both then jam three counters each.
    Rob.

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    We just tend to say you can't start clearing a jam until you stop firing your other gun. If both then jam three counters each.
    Rob.
    Totally agree, you can't shoot one gun and clear the other at the same time. It is a double edged sword, if you use the rule and both guns jam it will take you six moves to clear them.

  36. #36

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    I have a doubt. Giving these planes a chance to fire at overlapping planes (or maybe just to the planes overlapping their firing arc) can be fun. But if it is allowed to them, shouldn't it be allowed to any flexible gun too?

  37. #37

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Angiolillo View Post
    I have a doubt. Giving these planes a chance to fire at overlapping planes (or maybe just to the planes overlapping their firing arc) can be fun. But if it is allowed to them, shouldn't it be allowed to any flexible gun too?
    Yes that does make sense Andrea.
    A flexable mount on a 2 seater or large bomber should be able to rotate to fire upwards or downwards within its arc capability.

  38. #38

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    Looking at descriptions of the AEG GIV, it having a floor hatch for the rear gunner to fire down, any ideas on what the arc of fire should be? At present I'm just using a V shaped arc, like the scouts, only pointing backwards and only used to fire at lower than the AEG level. Any thoughts?

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skafloc View Post
    Looking at descriptions of the AEG GIV, it having a floor hatch for the rear gunner to fire down, any ideas on what the arc of fire should be? At present I'm just using a V shaped arc, like the scouts, only pointing backwards and only used to fire at lower than the AEG level. Any thoughts?
    I would go with that Neil, until someone can show that the gunner really did only have tunnel vision.
    Rob.

  40. #40

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    Cheers Rob. I also learned that as the fuselage was made of tubular steel it was stronger and survived the impact of crashes better. There are a few references of crew walking away from crashes even when the wings were gone on impact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte View Post
    I would go with that Neil, until someone can show that the gunner really did only have tunnel vision.
    Rob.

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl_Brisgamer View Post
    Two B damage cards don't work within the rules as it gives the target two chances for special damage. If you fire one MG it's a B card draw, if you fire 2 MG it's an A card draw. I don't think anyone could argue the wing mounted Lewis was a better proposition than two synchronised guns, otherwise by the end of WW1 all aircraft would have been so equipped. Albert Ball was a gifted and experienced fighter ace, but I would suggest most pilots lacked the skill or confidence to attack using the Lewis in the fashion described to attack from below. Much easier to point the nose of the aircraft and fly in that direction as you squeeze the trigger. Perhaps using the Lewis gun to shoot at higher targets could be an 'ace' skill?
    I like the idea of drawing a 'B' damage card for each machine gun of the SE5a as it's intuitive and simple.
    But, you're right two synchronised guns should have a distinct advantage - especially at long range where the wing mounted gun is harder to aim.
    So, I suggest the following:
    Draw a ‘B’ damage card for each gun, but do not apply the last damage card drawn if it has a special damage symbol - unless it is a Gun Jam
    This makes the B+B of the SE5a distinctly worse than drawing 'A' damage cards - especially at long range.

    At short range draw 4 'B' damage cards but the last card does no damage if it has a special damage symbol (unless a Gun Jam )
    At long range draw 2 'B' damage cards but the second card does no damage if it has a special damage symbol (unless a Gun Jam )

    Edited to make it clear Gun Jams for the last card drawn would still count - as there should be more chance of a gun jam.
    Last edited by Nicola Zee; 10-16-2013 at 05:29. Reason: Clarity

  42. #42

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    One thing I do not like about most of the house rules for planes that have one over wing gun and one firing through the prop, is that the player gets to choose which one is jammed. That allows the player to "game" the situation and does not reflect the realism the rule is trying to portray. I'm not sure if research would show us which weapon was more prone to jam, but one of them should jam on the green card and the other should jam on the red. The assignment of red green should always be the same from game to game as well.

  43. #43

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    An excellent proposition Keith.
    I have always assumed it to be the Lewis as its drum ran out, but this would make things more straightforward.
    Rob.

  44. #44

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    Good point about the drum running out Rob. Unfortunately, there are an even number of red and green jams. Otherwise, you could have used the the color with the most jams as the over wing Lewis to reflect it not only jamming, but also running out of ammo and needing to be reloaded. If you are also using the house rule of limited ammo, that problem is easily solved by giving the Lewis less ammo cards.

  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
    Good point about the drum running out Rob. Unfortunately, there are an even number of red and green jams. Otherwise, you could have used the the color with the most jams as the over wing Lewis to reflect it not only jamming, but also running out of ammo and needing to be reloaded. If you are also using the house rule of limited ammo, that problem is easily solved by giving the Lewis less ammo cards.
    [Redid the post as my reply was at best misleading]
    As I don't use limited ammo, I just treat the first gun jam as representing the Lewis gun jamming. Instead of adding Jam counters, the SE5a is then treated as having only a 'B' gun left. A pilot was unlikely to try to bother to fix the Lewis gun during a dogfight. Fixing the gun involved putting the joystick between the knees and trying to fly straight. So, in practical terms after the over the wing lewis gun stopped working it was often just ignored and the pilot just relied on the main gun.
    Last edited by Nicola Zee; 10-16-2013 at 10:36. Reason: Clarification

  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicola Zee View Post
    [Redid the post as my reply was at best misleading]
    As I don't use limited ammo, I just treat the first gun jam as representing the Lewis gun jamming. Instead of adding Jam counters, the SE5a is then treated as having only a 'B' gun left. A pilot was unlikely to try to bother to fix the Lewis gun during a dogfight. Fixing the gun involved putting the joystick between the knees and trying to fly straight. So, in practical terms after the over the wing lewis gun stopped working it was often just ignored and the pilot just relied on the main gun.
    Another good point. Perhaps unjamming the over wing Lewis should require flying straight and level three consecutive maneuvers to unjam. That would give a pilot that just shot down (and jammed) an enemy on one side of the table a chance to clear the jam on his way to re-engage in the fight across the table. It's not going to be feasible, but one might find them selves wanting to do it.

  47. #47

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    I would include a codicil to your idea Keith, that straight or dive should be included in the unjamming of the cockpit gun. The dive because there are a number of comments in biographys where the pilot is diving away hammering on his gun butt. In the case of changing a Lewis magazine which could be tricky at the best of times straight is the way to go.
    Rob.

  48. #48

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    I'd be inclined not to allow any steep manoeuvres whilst unjamming guns in general. I would imagine it would be rather tricky to attend to a jam whilst also attempting to undertake anything too dramatic in the pilotage department

  49. #49

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    But what about all the pilot statements that mention diving and unjamming at the same time Dave?
    Rob.

  50. #50

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    Diving is OK, its just a straight move after all. I find the idea of unjamming whilst performing an Immelmann rather amusing

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