(Werner Voss) 95 years ago today ...

**MoonSylver** · 09-23-2012 11:28

September 23rd 1917 Werner Voss fought & perished in what might be the most famous dogfight in history, after being engaged by seven S.E.5a's of #56 squadrons "B" flight, all seven piloted by Aces, including James McCudden. Voss fought them for an astounding 10 minutes, putting bullets into all of them, before being brought down.

I know this series has been posted before, but here is the relevant part of the History Channel series "Dogfights" from the episode "The First Dogfighters".

This is part 2 of the episode. @1:17 they begin to discuss the legendary duel. This episode REALLY brought it to life for me & is WELL worth viewing.

Continued in part 3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmPbT...eature=related

Concluded in pt 4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdLwB...feature=relmfu

Good article on it here:

http://voss.hegewisch.net/56.html

**Doug** · 09-23-2012 16:15

Great stuff

**Oberst Hajj** · 09-23-2012 22:05

No doubt a great pilot and warrior. Too bad we will never know why Voss did not disengage.

**gully_raker** · 09-23-2012 22:26

Yes a Classic Dog Fight.
Voss showed such bravery but I think he felt he could outfight the SE5a's with the Fok Dr.I's ability but he should have showed some sense & broke away.
McCudden said Voss could have done so & he thought he was the bravest pilot he had ever faced.

There is an excellent recreation of the fateful day on U Tube done using :Rise of Flight" graphics. Sorry dont have the link but you can probably find it without too much hassel.

**MoonSylver** · 09-23-2012 22:57

Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj

No doubt a great pilot and warrior. Too bad we will never know why Voss did not disengage.

Mmmm indeed. As others have said in the docs & such, it seems either he thought he could out fly & out fight them w/ the DR.I's agility (astonishingly displayed in the above vid) or he was hungry to up his score or lost in the thrill of battle? As you say, we'll never know for sure. When I learned the DR.I had superior climb capability, thus he COULD have disengaged (reaffirmed by McCudden), it became quite puzzling indeed.

It's one of several mysteries that leave me thinking, like the last flights of Albert Ball, Mick Mannock & MvR himself. You wonder what they were thinking & led to the decisions under which they met their demise.

Originally Posted by gully_raker

There is an excellent recreation of the fateful day on U Tube done using :Rise of Flight" graphics. Sorry dont have the link but you can probably find it without too much hassel.

Yep, found it!

**flash** · 09-24-2012 01:54

Nice post Rob - I have that programme recorded. What a great fighter pilot the man was. The fact that he took out two SE5a before 56 got to him just adds to the legend.

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 09-24-2012 02:20

It is always worth watching again.
Thanks.
Rob.

**Grey Knight** · 09-24-2012 03:07

Brave man indeed...

**Baldrick62** · 09-24-2012 12:07

While it doesn't provide all the answers surrounding the introduction of the Fokker F.I to combat, the most recent narrative of Voss, by Barry Diggens, is a fantastic read - http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...rner-Voss-(GS)

**MoonSylver** · 09-24-2012 15:05

Originally Posted by Baldrick62

While it doesn't provide all the answers surrounding the introduction of the Fokker F.I to combat, the most recent narrative of Voss, by Barry Diggens, is a fantastic read - http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...rner-Voss-(GS)

Thanks for the link to the Voss Bio! I'd just heard of it for the 1st time over the weekend & hadn't looked into it yet, but now it's already a must-get!

**gully_raker** · 09-24-2012 18:24

Found this great image of the Voss fight over on the Aerodrome Historical site in a similar thread.

Click image for larger version.

Name: WW1 Voss Vs 56 Sqd Wilson Hurley.jpg
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Note that the painter, Wilson Hurley is one of the very few to show the correct 56 Sqd ID Dumbells on the Aircraft.

**Oberst Hajj** · 09-25-2012 08:00

[QUOTE=MoonSylver;170777]Mmmm indeed. As others have said in the docs & such, it seems either he thought he could out fly & out fight them w/ the DR.I's agility (astonishingly displayed in the above vid) or he was hungry to up his score or lost in the thrill of battle? As you say, we'll never know for sure. When I learned the DR.I had superior climb capability, thus he COULD have disengaged (reaffirmed by McCudden), it became quite puzzling indeed.

Well, the plane was capable of out climbing them. Its possible that at that time, something could have kept him from out climbing them... maybe even the dogfight its self. Having the dodge so many enemy attacks, we know he was turning all the time. Turn drops airspeed which is to death to climbing. And from what I've heard, the Dr.I drops a lot of speed in turns (all the drag from three wings I imagine). Now add in that at any given time, there easily could have been an SE5 above him as they could come and go with a little freedom. I can see how Voss could have been at the point of initiating a climb to escape, only to have to turn to dodge/engage another inbound enemy.

It's also possible that his F.I did not climb as well as later Dr.Is due to engine issues in the prototype (or possible damage from the first two SEs). I would think McCudden statement about climbing out would have been based at least partly on later knowledge of the Dr.Is capabilities.

**flash** · 09-25-2012 09:22

Sure you're right Keith - he just couldn't out climb a burst of .303 !
There is a quote in the commentary of his kite being at the apex of tracer from five aircraft at one point

**MoonSylver** · 09-25-2012 10:54

Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj

Well, the plane was capable of out climbing them. Its possible that at that time, something could have kept him from out climbing them... maybe even the dogfight its self. Having the dodge so many enemy attacks, we know he was turning all the time. Turn drops airspeed which is to death to climbing. And from what I've heard, the Dr.I drops a lot of speed in turns (all the drag from three wings I imagine). Now add in that at any given time, there easily could have been an SE5 above him as they could come and go with a little freedom. I can see how Voss could have been at the point of initiating a climb to escape, only to have to turn to dodge/engage another inbound enemy.

It's also possible that his F.I did not climb as well as later Dr.Is due to engine issues in the prototype (or possible damage from the first two SEs). I would think McCudden statement about climbing out would have been based at least partly on later knowledge of the Dr.Is capabilities.

Thanks for the clarifications! When the statement was made that Voss might not have been able to escape the dogfight because the members of 56 might have kept him engaged, but at the same time hearing that he COULD have because of climb rate was confusing to me. This makes it a lot clearer.

Also, while I'd heard his Fokker was a early model/prototype I didn't realize there was a difference in the designation or possibly design. You make any number of good points as to other reasons as well.

Learning more all the time!

**gully_raker** · 09-25-2012 15:31

Rob! Tony Fokker sent two prototypes for assesment. One to Voss & the other to MvR (the Red Baron)
There were not a lot of changes made but the Production kites were the more familier Green streaked camo whereas the first two were Silvery Blue/Grey.

**Oberst Hajj** · 09-25-2012 15:43

And my comments are all just conjecture as well! I just don't buy into the "he got greedy" theory. He was too good of a pilot for that. Even if he did get greedy at first, I think he would have bugged out once it got as hot as it did.

**csadn** · 09-25-2012 17:23

Originally Posted by gully_raker

Found this great image of the Voss fight over on the Aerodrome Historical site in a similar thread.

More interesting to me: The foreground SE5 is depicted with the Lewis in the upward position -- perhaps Voss was "Schrage Musik-ed" while trying to climb out of the fight?

**Flying Officer Kyte** · 09-25-2012 23:50

Originally Posted by csadn

More interesting to me: The foreground SE5 is depicted with the Lewis in the upward position -- perhaps Voss was "Schrage Musik-ed" while trying to climb out of the fight?

Maybe Chris, but without written evidence, I would be inclined to just take this as artistic licence.
Now if Albert Ball had still been alive, that would put a whole different complexion on things, but I don't recall McCudden mentioning using this technique in "Flying Fury".
Still it is an interesting idea.
Rob.

**csadn** · 09-26-2012 19:26

Originally Posted by Flying Officer Kyte

Maybe Chris, but without written evidence, I would be inclined to just take this as artistic licence.

Well, the Lewis isn't being fired (tho' the way the Fokker's prop is placed, it looks like it is at first-glance); but was it possible to fire it from that angle in the first place?

As to it not being "mentioned in dispatches": I suspect if it was possible, and was done, it's possible it was never mentioned specifically as being done, or was listed as a "deflection shot". (Someone call the Mythbusters. :) )

**Jager** · 09-27-2012 06:21

Originally Posted by gully_raker

Rob! Tony Fokker sent two prototypes for assesment. One to Voss & the other to MvR (the Red Baron)
There were not a lot of changes made but the Production kites were the more familier Green streaked camo whereas the first two were Silvery Blue/Grey.

IIRC (and can't check, since my loving wife, while home recovering from a back injury, cleaned the computor area, so my source books are (mis)filed) the production Dr.Is had an additional tail stabilizer added to correct the problems with engine torque. The lack of this (in his prototype) allowed for the "half flat-spin" that Voss was reported in using in the fight. A lesser pilot would have been handicaped by this instability.
Karl