level of expertise

[gavain2]

10

As I read further about the levels of experience reached by 'Pilots' arriving in France etc, from England,he found very little experience within the new people. One had only taxied around. the books I have are ' The Royal Flying Corps in WWI & 'On a Wing and a Prayer' + various bits and pieces if info garnered from far and wide.


With this in mind I wonder how you all arrive at your pilots levels of experience. How do they become Aces?.

So, I'm looking at forming my squadron from a mix of ....Novice....Pilot....Experienced....Expert and an Ace is one who gains the requisite number of kills.
The minimum of flights to move up a grade as under


Novice....4 learning how to read the ground etc. with two being missions over enemy lines.

Pilot.......6

Experienced....8

Expert............10

As the fliers upgrade they become able to use more and better manoeuveres and hopefully this is how one becomes an Ace.

I would love some comments on my ideas. Also better ideas than mine


Don aka gavain2

[Niclas]

Is this within the context of some campaign, Don?

/Niclas

[gavain2]

Not as yet. I am awaiting a new terrain mat and also have to print off various things from the archives which I have downloaded. At this time my printer is broken so unable to print stuff. But, when I do most of my games will be solo campaigning. Only on occasion will I have friends to take part.

But, please give any comments or ideas which you think are viable for this

Don.

[Doug]

Yes it would be a great idea for a campagin, but on the other hand you would have to work out a system to grade German pilots, how much better trained were they?

[gully_raker]

One thought I will throw into the ring would be start the Pilots off in a 2 seater & only after a number of successful missions/patrols then graduate them to Scouts.
Many German & British pilots came to prominance that way.
Two outstanding ones were James McCudden & the Red Baron!

[gavain2]

/Niclas Yes! Perhaps a set of cards which are drawn at first contact with enemy so no prior knowledge of their capabilities. That's the idea I'm playing with. What do you think?

It would be within a campaign!



Don

[steel_ratt]

I like the idea of restricting maneouvers of novice pilots. Things like the Immelman and the tight turns of the rotary engines would, I imagine, be difficult to master.

Perhaps allow them to try the moves (pilots would be tempted to do risky moves in a dogfight), but have some chance of failure / catastrophe if it is not a move your pilot has mastered? (Possibility of going out of control and having to try to recover?) It would mean a lot of house rules would have to be introduced, though; not sure if that would be worthwhile for the added flavour.

[gavain2]

[QUOTE=steel_ratt;159336]I like the idea of restricting maneouvers of novice pilots. Things like the Immelman and the tight turns of the rotary engines would, I imagine, be difficult to master.

Perhaps allow them to try the moves (pilots would be tempted to do risky moves in a dogfight), but have some chance of failure / catastrophe if it is not a move your pilot has mastered? (Possibility of going out of control and having to try to recover?) It would mean a lot of house rules would have to be introduced, though; not sure if that would be worthwhile for the added flavour.[/Q




I think it may be a better idea to just assume they would have no idea of how to perform these manoeuvres in the beginning, but would learn as they do more flights in company with a better pilot. Pehaps as you say but after the 3rd flight?


Don

[wargamer]

As well, you may as well factor in reaction times... Many of the newbs died, having never seen what killed them.

[gavain2]

Hi, Yes that is true, but how to factor that in I have no idea! Perhaps you may have some ideas but essentially what do you think about my ideas in general?

I would love to know as much as people think


Don

[Niclas]

Hi Don,

I liked your original setup, with a handful of different "levels" that had a number of restrictions and/or benefits.
Perhaps restrictions on novice and pilot, plain vanilla on experienced and ace ability on expert?
I think the restrictions should be simple (for playability). Removing certain maneuvers is a good idea - Perhaps the novice also should be restricted to only shooting at close range (with only one card)? That would also work when they flew in the observer position.

With rules like that, I'd suggest a campaign setup where each player had a "stable" of pilots at different levels. Before each scenario you'd choose which pilots flew which plane (and position). Obviously, you'd stand a better chance of winning playing your best pilots - But you'd also want to develop your less experienced ones. Also, you might have to fly less experienced pilots at times, if your aces were all killed or wounded. I think this would add an interesting dimension to the game.

/Niclas

[gavain2]

Hello again Niclas

Perhaps restrictions on novice and pilot, plain vanilla on experienced and ace ability on expert? Yes this is a good idea but 'Ace' should not be a given but earned!

I think the restrictions should be simple (for playability). Removing certain maneuvers is a good idea - Perhaps the novice also should be restricted to only shooting at close range (with only one card)? That would also work when they flew in the observer position.

This I like too,

With rules like that, I'd suggest a campaign setup where each player had a "stable" of pilots at different levels. Before each scenario you'd choose which pilots flew which plane (and position). Obviously, you'd stand a better chance of winning playing your best pilots - But you'd also want to develop your less experienced ones.

This is the root of my idea The first time a squadron is formed it would be from a set of cards ie a novice card drawn with maybe 1, 2, or 3, flights under his belt which would be on the card. And this through all levels of fliers. The enemy experience levels drawn on first contact for each enemy plane

Also, you might have to fly less experienced pilots at times, if your aces were all killed or wounded. I think this would add an interesting dimension to the game

This is the realistic part of the whole idea. One could end up as you say with a poor quality Squadron at times!

Keep the ideas coming !!!!!!

[diceslinger]

I too was thinking about restricting certain moves like immalmans, but I was thinking of it in terms of the opposite of ace skills, Novice Inabilities if you like. Roll them randomly for the rookies in a campaign. Perhaps after ever 5 sorties one can be removed? Or remove one instead of gaining an ace skill?

Spooked by Archie: If an AA round explodes within a ruler length of the pilot he cannot tail as his concentration is broken.
Doesn't trust his Seatbelt: Pilot cannot execute inverted maneuvers, i.e. immalmans or split S maneuvers.
Slow Down!: can't overdive.
Poor shot: never gets the +1 bonus for shooting at the same target as last round. (Can't aim)
Unfamiliar with gun: jammed guns stay jammed for 4 rounds instead of 3.
Run Away: If engine damage occurs pilot must immediately turn and run to the closest table edge.
Bruce is dead!: If observer is incapacitated pilot must immediately turn and run to the closest table edge.
Impetuous: Planes with this Inability are placed on the table and play 2 full turns before friendly planes start the game on their table edge. The impetuous plane just cant help himself but to dive into the fray first, often leading to trouble.

I was also thinking that novice pilots would have worse rolls if they were shot down over enemy territory in a campaign. Experienced pilots could handle their machine and squeeze every bit of lift out of them to make it to no-man's land where rookies much ditch it at the first open field. In Rickebacker's book he talks of one guy who snapped his upper wing in his Neuport on three seperate occasions pulling out of steep dives, and still made it back each time. There is no substitute for experience.

What do you guys think?

[gavain2]

Shawn hello


This is getting better and better.

Novice Inabilities great idea! and .... all of these too!

Doesn't trust his Seatbelt: Pilot cannot execute inverted maneuvers, i.e. immalmans or split S maneuvers.
Slow Down!: can't overdive.
Poor shot: never gets the +1 bonus for shooting at the same target as last round. (Can't aim)
Unfamiliar with gun: jammed guns stay jammed for 4 rounds instead of 3.
Run Away: If engine damage occurs pilot must immediately turn and run to the closest table edge.
Bruce is dead!: If observer is incapacitated pilot must immediately turn and run to the closest table edge.


I was also thinking that novice pilots would have worse rolls if they were shot down over enemy territory in a campaign. Love this one also!

I think we are getting towards an extremely set of rules maybe. I just know I wasn't happy with the play rules as they stand, not if we are all looking to realism in so far as we can do! I'm happy that my initial thoughts have been expanded.

So now where to with this? Im sure there will be more thoughts on this. I hope so maybe now I should be copying all these ideas and putting them together.


Don

[diceslinger]

Another idea would be to start novice pilots out with fewer damage points. So if the plane usually has 14 damage, novices only start with 12 to represent them bugging out faster. You could even add to the damage points for veterens, I read an account where the pilot had a wing cable severed by a bullet and he held onto the cable with one hand while flying and shooting with the other.

[gavain2]

Shawn hi, It seems that after my initial input on this topic, the greater it seems that lot of people have been looking for a better system of realistic gameplay. Perhaps we can all assemble, between us, a new set of rules. which obviously should contain all the best of the current rules.

I hope so
but to date, apart from a few forays with two friends I personally haven't had a lot of gaming with WoW. I'm awaiting a terrain mat 5'x3' to arrive and to print off solo rules plus other goodies.


But I like the ideas which keep coming up!
I have copied all the remarks and ideas given so far. Hopefully soon I will be able to put a set together which makes sense and most importaNT REMAINS PLAYABLE AND FUN



Don

[GilmoreDK]

Yes it would be a great idea for a campagin, but on the other hand you would have to work out a system to grade German pilots, how much better trained were they?

That depend on what time period we are speaking and of which Jastas...

All the Jastas in Jagdgeswader 1(4,6,10,11), 2 (from feb 1918: 12,13,18,19) and 3 (Jasta 2/Boelcke, 26,27,36) was the very best.
Jasta 5 (the Greentails) were the very best of the independent Jastas.

All the Jastas numbered higher than 40 (41-80) were a part of the "Amerikaprogramm" in 1918 and was hastily trained under the command of an experienced Staffelführer. They often flew older equipment which at that point primarily meant Alb. D.Va and Pfalz D.IIIa´s. They somehow managed to place themselves as easy training for the USAS (who then got cocky and got a shock when they met Geswader 2)...

- Svend

[gavain2]

As my campaign will be in late 1914 and into 1915 perhaps the very good jastas won't be appearing. As I shall be drawing a card for each enemy as they appear and some(most) will be slighty better than the Brits(or not) , this will/should make for a better game??



Don

[wargamer]

local house rules on this subject....

Pilot Green I - All new pilots start at this skill level for combat awareness.
Ignores any enemy approach, until first shot that does damage.
-
Pilot Green II - Only move to this level if pilot survives being shot at and damaged during a sortie. Ignores any enemy approach from behind or above, until first shot that does damage.

Pilot Green III - Only move to this level if pilot survives being attacked from blind spot and damaged during a sortie while at Pilot Green II level.
Ignores any enemy approach from above ,until first shot that does damage.

Pilot Green IV - Only move to this level if pilot survives being attacked from blind spot and damaged during a sortie while at Pilot Green III level. This level represents combat ready for pilots.

Pilot Red I - All new pilots start at this skill level for combat acrobatics.

Pilot Red II - Advance to this level of combat acrobatics after surviving ten sorties. Crash landing survival allowed.

Pilot Red III - Advance to this level of combat acrobatics after surviving twenty sorties. Immelmann Loop allowed.


Pilot Red IV - Advance to this level of combat acrobatics after surviving thirty sorties. Immelmann Turn allowed.

Immelmann Loop
What the old rules called the Immelmann. This is the long red, the reversement card, and the short red (or can be reversed; short red, reversement, long red). Many heavy and or cumbersome aircraft cannot do this maneuver.

Immelmann Turn
What basically any skilled or lucky pilot can do with any plane. Short red to represent stalling the plane, followed by long red in any direction to represent the extremely tight turn possible at stall speed.
In play, the first maneuver phase with the short red operates as normal, everyone moves, shoots, then next maneuver phase. At this point the Immelmann Turn is executed first before anyone else moves. This execution is by taking the long red, placing its end on the red center (or peg of the model stand) of the aircraft, and then pointing the end of the arrow in the direction you want the aircraft to go, placing the aircraft card or base appropriately. Then everyone else moves. Then everyone but the guy with the Immelmann Turn shoots, to make the game playable, the Immelmann Turn shoots last. Which reflects that the guy is just hanging there slow and steady, making a beautiful target.

[gully_raker]

As my campaign will be in late 1914 and into 1915 perhaps the very good jastas won't be appearing. As I shall be drawing a card for each enemy as they appear and some(most) will be slighty better than the Brits(or not) , this will/should make for a better game??



Don

G'day Don!
Dont forget that the Jastas only started to be organised in early 1916.
Before that there were Kests, Kek's KuK's etc.
Pilots for the Jastas were mainly drawn from the KeK's but some from the Kests which were home defence single seater units.

[gavain2]

local house rules on this subject....

Pilot Green I - All new pilots start at this skill level for combat awareness.
Ignores any enemy approach, until first shot that does damage.
-
Pilot Green II - Only move to this level if pilot survives being shot at and damaged during a sortie. Ignores any enemy approach from behind or above, until first shot that does damage.

Pilot Green III - Only move to this level if pilot survives being attacked from blind spot and damaged during a sortie while at Pilot Green II level.
Ignores any enemy approach from above ,until first shot that does damage.

Pilot Green IV - Only move to this level if pilot survives being attacked from blind spot and damaged during a sortie while at Pilot Green III level. This level represents combat ready for pilots.

Pilot Red I - All new pilots start at this skill level for combat acrobatics.

Pilot Red II - Advance to this level of combat acrobatics after surviving ten sorties. Crash landing survival allowed.

Pilot Red III - Advance to this level of combat acrobatics after surviving twenty sorties. Immelmann Loop allowed.


Pilot Red IV - Advance to this level of combat acrobatics after surviving thirty sorties. Immelmann Turn allowed.
........................................................................................................................................................................................................ .......................................................

Immelmann Loop
What the old rules called the Immelmann. This is the long red, the reversement card, and the short red (or can be reversed; short red, reversement, long red). Many heavy and or cumbersome aircraft cannot do this maneuver.

Immelmann Turn
What basically any skilled or lucky pilot can do with any plane. Short red to represent stalling the plane, followed by long red in any direction to represent the extremely tight turn possible at stall speed.
In play, the first maneuver phase with the short red operates as normal, everyone moves, shoots, then next maneuver phase. At this point the Immelmann Turn is executed first before anyone else moves. This execution is by taking the long red, placing its end on the red center (or peg of the model stand) of the aircraft, and then pointing the end of the arrow in the direction you want the aircraft to go, placing the aircraft card or base appropriately. Then everyone else moves. Then everyone but the guy with the Immelmann Turn shoots, to make the game playable, the Immelmann Turn shoots last. Which reflects that the guy is just hanging there slow and steady, making a beautiful target.

Last edited by wargamer; Yesterday at 23:19.
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Al hello
How do you keep account of what level a pilot has reached and how is it shown during play?

Ha! 'GREEN', I knew there was a better word than novice, just couldn't remember it. (So many things going on, studying philosophy among many other things in life). Regarding the 'Immelmann'. I am looking at a card which is placed with the long side placed horizontally, rather than as usual, I just need to get some programme for my laptop which lets me play with cloning etc. I have the picture in my head, just need to do it AND get new printer inks.


Don