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Thread: WARNING - Shapeways Customer Services - a change in refund policy

  1. #1

    Smile RESOLVED - Shapeways Customer Services - a change in refund policy

    I just received a shapeways order and unfortunately there were a couple of D.Vii kits that were printed very badly

    Here's a picture:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    After sending this picture to Shapeways customer services to ask for a refund I received the following:

    I know we have been refunding these kind of prints in the past, but since we have put this on the website we are warning people that this can happen and we unfortunately can't compensate this any more. I know that this is a disappointment, but this is the way 3D printing does work. You can see print lines on models, which we call stepping, and this does happen a lot with these small airplane models.

    We have tried a lot of things, by putting them differently in the printer, but unfortunately it does happen to these models.

    Maybe you can try to use some fine sanding paper to get rid of this stepping on your model.

    I am very sorry that I can't help you further with this issue.

    Kind Regards,

    Mrs. Christel Hagens
    Customer Service Agent
    www.Shapeways.com
    Note: this is the link she reffers to as "since we put this on the website"
    http://www.shapeways.com/materials/w...trong_flexible


    I am disappointed that Shapeways have now decided not to refund poor quality printing. I was just about to place a large order but now I'm having second thoughts. I don't want to waste the money if the print quality is sub standard.

    Has anyone else had this problem?

    Ian
    Last edited by Womble; 07-03-2012 at 06:09.

  2. #2

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    Oh that's bad news.
    If the product is inferior they should replace it.
    Don

  3. #3

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    Ian,

    I got a Shapeways order yesterday and the very same model in the same material looks just like yours.
    So far Ive uused a sanding stick and a file and have had little success. The material is too soft and seems to resist sanding. I'll keep trying.
    The other models I got are ok. Appearently that design doesn't work too good. Too bad as I wanted to get another D.VII. Guess I'll have to look elsewhere.

    Jim

  4. #4

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    I've never been a fan of 3D printing, but now...

  5. #5

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    It's a new technology, we need to keep in mind that it may be a decade until it's perfected. If the lines are that noticeable then try spraying a thick layer of base coat on it. That may help in the sanding department.

  6. #6

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    I have written to Shapeways and advised them that, whilst I have been a frequent customer of theirs in the past, I shall not be ordering any product from them unless and until this decision is reversed. Their printers obviously know how to arrange the printing to produce a satisfactory model (I've had one duff model in 60) and so I would expect them to do so, or reprint when the product is sub-standard.

    I wonder if our resident modellers could contact Shapeways to record their displeasure at the actions of their agents. After all, they will be losing income as a result.

    I'm sure there are some readers of this forum who are rubbing their hands with glee at this development.

  7. #7

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    That is very bad news. The worst part is this, that is not "print lines" (or what the rest of the industry calls "grow lines"), which is the tiny lines made from each layer being printed. What you have is just a poor print. And if indeed this is Shapeways future outlook on their bad prints, they are no longer a viable option in my opinion.

    Also, this is not a new technology and their prints have always been sub-standard for the industry. They use a ProJet printer (I believe the 3000HD version). It is capable of very nice prints, as you can see from this Camel I had printed on a ProJet 3000HD, but not done by Shapeways:






  8. #8

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    That's a bad move on their part, that's for sure. Maybe it is finally time to start seriously looking for another 3d print source.

  9. #9

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    I've just taken a look at the page to which Christel posted the link and the degree of print lining in Ian's example picture is an order of magnitude or more greater than the example picture. I think you would have a very good case against Shapeways on the basis that the degree of error in your models is so very much greater than the example. I suggest you open an grievance with Paypal and demand an immediate refund.

  10. #10

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    Well this is a bind. I must admit I have not received a bad print now for a while, I did think they may be a thing of the past, obviously not. I now am very wary about getting further models if this will be the case. Shame as I had my eye on a few new kits.

  11. #11

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    I was thinking of putting in an order soon as well but will hold off now and concentrate on the 20+ planes already in the queue.
    Don

  12. #12

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    I agree Dave, the ridges on Wombles plane look far worse than the example on the link that Christel posted.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Manley View Post
    I've just taken a look at the page to which Christel posted the link and the degree of print lining in Ian's example picture is an order of magnitude or more greater than the example picture. I think you would have a very good case against Shapeways on the basis that the degree of error in your models is so very much greater than the example. I suggest you open an grievance with Paypal and demand an immediate refund.

  13. #13

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    Time for mass twittering and facebook page posts Gents - we may be playing in 1916 but this is unacceptable in 2012

    I've kicked it off here - http://www.facebook.com/pages/Shapew...1469878?ref=ts

    comments would help
    Last edited by PilGrim; 06-27-2012 at 15:08.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boney10 View Post
    Well this is a bind. I must admit I have not received a bad print now for a while, I did think they may be a thing of the past, obviously not. I now am very wary about getting further models if this will be the case. Shame as I had my eye on a few new kits.
    Same here. I've ordered at least 10 of my own designs in the last couple months and they have all been fine. I'll cross my fingers and hope the Ca.4 comes out okay.

  15. #15

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    Hmmmm sounds like they want you to try and polish a turd. I've not been a big fan of the fuzzy Shapeways finish before now, but they always had good customer service till now. If they have such a problem with the returns of the DVII (and DRI), you think they would pull the design (sorry all you designers out there). I agree with Herr Oberst, it might be time to look at alternative printing companies.

  16. #16

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    Too bad about the change in policy. In my orders, I have never had a bad print job.
    Must be the good clean life I've been living
    The printing on the D VII kit is unforgivable. Looks like it time to start spending my money on the metal kits.
    Easier to fix the problems with them. At least the finish is smooth.

  17. #17

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    I received 2 of the Dvii kit months ago, and they came out fine. If they are trying to say that that is just bad luck, well I shall order no more from them. That is not a bad design, nor is it acceptable. It is quite simple badly printed.

    Heck, I was trying to decide if I was going to buy a o/400 or try to scratch build it, guess which way I am going now...

    They have lost this customer with that attitude.

    Dave

  18. #18

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    Yeah, compare your D.VII kit with the one they printed for me:




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    While they are out of two different materials, it shows the extent of that bad print job.

  19. #19

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    Looks like I won't be buying those Zeppellin-Staakens so long as this customer service policy holds. They're too expensive to simply hope they come out right...

  20. #20

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    Although so far all my shapeways orders so far have been ok, but this thread does give me second thoughts about future orders.

  21. #21

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    Haven't ordered from them yet but this does cause one to pause and reconsider. Just a curious bit,though...what are the materials used in the two examples in the photos, one white and one translucent? Also, what finishes, smooth, polished or something else? One final question for Keith...who or where did you get the other models produced that you referenced...and are they available for others to order from?

  22. #22

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    Guys, dont tell us - tell THEM!

    Swamp their customer service, twitter (not sure how that works but I'm sure they have it) and Facebook accounts. Let them and other customers know about your decision. Shapeways offer a great asset to us, but if we cant order with the confidence that they will correct issues then everyone loses

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by PilGrim View Post
    Guys, dont tell us - tell THEM!

    Swamp their customer service, twitter (not sure how that works but I'm sure they have it) and Facebook accounts. Let them and other customers know about your decision. Shapeways offer a great asset to us, but if we cant order with the confidence that they will correct issues then everyone loses
    Already posted up on their FB page, I might take a peek and see if it is still there...

    Dave

  24. #24

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    Have just voiced my righteous indignation.

    Brelly

  25. #25

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    Worst - Knitted - Plane - Ever.

    I think the phrase 'fit for purpose' applies here, and that is in no way fit for purpose. At the very least they should be replacing a model like that. Obviously they have been coughing up too much in refunds or replacement for poor quality models. To say that "this does happen a lot with these small airplane models" is spurious as they have proved on and off that they can produce good quality product.

    Oh, and Ian - good luck with the fine sandpaper

  26. #26

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    I have had a small number of their planes (less than 20) obtained through Zoe. A number of them (nearly half) were appallingly printed but Zoe managed to obtain replacements for them. What I would like Shapeways to do is to INSPECT THEIR PRODUCT before dispatch!

    Really, how hard can that honestly be? They have to manually pick the items up and put them individually (more of less) into plastic resealable bags. So surely they should INSPECT them while doing it. It's called QUALITY CONTROL!

    These guys are meant to be experts at their trade and yet they frequently produce goods that look like the local work experience boy or the monkey they borrowed from the zoo has done the "work" without any supervision. If I buy a book from The Book Depository I am not going to put up with an excuse disclaimer that says "If the printing is off-set and unreadable or even if the pages are blank, don't contact us there is no refund". I would expect them to replace the product and that goes for any product that is produced anywhere that I buy via post, that I personally cannot see for myself on purchase. And I know that The Book Depository replace faulty goods so I am happy and confident to buy from them and similar reliable companies.

    Knowingly sending faulty products is not only immoral and disrespectful towards their loyal customers, it is also dishonest (and quite possibly illegal under EU regulations???)! They may as well say "Stand and Deliver!! Do they really want to kill some or all of their business, because they produce more small items than just 1/144 planes.

    Not to mention that the EU is suffering something of an economic set back during the present time - so people do not generally have the sort of disposable income that they had a few years ago. Buying 1/144 planes as a hobby just does not rate with some people any more when the cost of living goes up and wages don't. Companies that rely on a relatively small customer base and disrespect those same customers who are helping to put food in the mouths of those manufacturers, do not deserve our support!

    Shapeways! Change your policy!

  27. #27

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    This is disconcerting. I recently (month or so ago) had a problem with an order and contacted their customer service and it was taken care of immediately and everything was perfect. Now this new policy and an apparent lackadaisical concern toward quality control is not to be tolerated. I was hopeful that these types of errors were behind us by now. I have over 150 planes from Shapeways and, maybe 5% had the 'squiggly' lines photographed above. They were most certainly from my first orders, which included 5 of 10 DrI's were bad, 3 of 4 DVII 'kits', and 3 of 4 Sopwith 1/2 Strutters. All of these, save for the 3 DVII kits I've kept and by dunking them into Polycryllic and then smoothing up with needle files, they turned out pretty good. The one DVII kit turned out very nice and is painted in a red/lozenge combo scheme as my mythical plane of the Red Baron, had he survived. The other three I gave up on and gave them to Clipper1801 as he is a modeling genius to see what he can do with them. All of the rest have been good quality, so I will not be 'jumping ship' at this point.

    I am supposed to be getting my most recent order later today and it is with some trepidation upon my opening up the box, however, in my experience the odds are good for receiving aesthetic models. Keith, where did you get that Camel printed? The world wants to know.

  28. #28

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    Thanks for all the support. Great idea hitting the Facebook page, I've just posted a message. I'm going to give it one more try for a refund by saying that the print quality is worse than they show on the WSF page, if that doesn't work it'll be a Paypal dispute.

    I think an alternative 3D printing option to Shapeways would provide some healthy competition. I was just about to place a Ł300 order but I'm not willing to gamble this much money with the chance of poor printing and no refund.

    Ian

  29. #29

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    Fit for purpose ? Satisfactory quality ? Both Epic Fail.
    Give 'em Hell Ian - I don't have FB or Twatter to tell 'em myself but that is an appalling decision.

  30. #30

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    Bad policy to cover for inability to do quality checking on their product.
    They will lose a LOT of money over this.

    I'm sure there are some readers of this forum who are rubbing their hands with glee at this development.
    Why? Who gains as there are no alternative sources for these models. There are other 3D printing places BUT they are a fair bit more expensive and aimed more at the FUD type of model.

  31. #31

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    I'm sure there are some readers of this forum who are rubbing their hands with glee at this development.
    Quote Originally Posted by pbhawkin View Post
    Why?
    Because they are gamers?
    I don't understand it, but you know, there are people who hate D&D4e. There are people who hate rpgs in general. There are people who hate Warhammer, etc. Weird, but true.

  32. #32

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    I'm one of those "3D-printing-sceptics" and have stated this fact repeatedly on this forum. (But certainly no glee on my part!)
    And I was actually about to place my first order this week end!

    Me wanna some of those Ponniers M.1 and other "Belgian" stuff I can't get anywhere else...

  33. #33

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    To answer the question of where I got the tiny Camel printed, it was printed by the company that makes the 3D printer. A friend and I are looking at purchasing a 3D printer as a business. We looked at the ProJet 3000HD, but are now looking at a printer that will print in over 300,000 different colors. We are awaiting for some prototype samples to come back to check if they are except-able for gaming pieces. If they do work out for the table top, we should be able to offer pre-painted planes for about $10-$12.

    It's a huge investment, so we are taking it slow and researching it well.

  34. #34

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    Why?
    Because there are some who see the availability of aircraft through Shapeways as a threat to Ares' business (never mind that it actually seems to have reinvigorated interest in the game, or at least kept interest going during the lull, and that the vast majority of models that are available have absolutely no chance of being manufactured by Ares).

    I emailed the company yesterday about this. In the past Mitchell and co have replied promptly to messages so I'm hoping for a reply soon.

  35. #35

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    This just in from the complaints thread on Facebook...
    Hi guys, please rest assured that there has been no clear change in the refund policy. I am working with customer service to take another look at this specific order. I've responded in more detail below. Best, Natalia: http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index...548&#msg_50548

  36. #36

    Duann
    Guest


    Default

    Hey Guys,

    Duann from Shapeways here,
    we are looking into this, there has not been a change in policy, we do want to ensure that you get the best possible 3D Printing from Shapeways, reliably..

    There is more information on the Shapeways forums but we are looking into this..

    http://www.shapeways.com/forum/index...548&#msg_50548

    Thanks for surfacing this issue..

    Duann
    Shapeways

  37. #37

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    Thanks for the update Duann. I hope you can restore my faith in Shapeways.

  38. #38

    Duann
    Guest


    Default

    Hey Ian,
    I am sure we can, our community manager Natalia is deep into it right now.

    Thanks again.

  39. #39

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    Seems there is some confusion at Shapeways within the Customer service department then. Quoted from emails from today:


    Thought you might like to take a look at this:

    http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/sho...-refund-policy

    Is this really the way Shapeways is going?


    Thank you,



    Keith Upton
    __________________________________
    Christel Hagens
    JUN 28, 2012 | 09:53AM CEST
    Hi Keith,

    Thank you for this link, I am afraid this is indeed the way we do work. These things can happen to White Strong & Flexible models, here you can see the stepping on some models. And this does happen a lot to these small airplanes. We do mention this on our material page but I must agree that the picture isn't that clear.

    We are working on adding some better pictures so the customers and designers can see the stepping better on models. The issue is that if we would reprint these models the same thing might happen again, because we do mention this on our material page to warn customers and designers about this we unfortunately also can't refund this.

    Sorry about this.
    Kind Regards,

    Mrs. Christel Hagens
    Customer Service Agent
    www.Shapeways.com
    bkupton
    JUN 28, 2012 | 03:39AM CEST
    Hello Christel,
    Thanks for the reply Christel. Unfortunately I think you will see a large drop in orders from the airplane community over the next few months due to this.

    __________________________________
    Christel Hagens
    JUN 28, 2012 | 04:44PM CEST
    Hi Keith,

    You are welcome. I understand that maybe some customers won't be ordering the planes any more at Shapeways and this is sad to hear. We off course are looking for ways to communicate this better on our website and to see if we can do anything else about this.

    This is something our Community Manager is having a look at at this moment. I off course can understand that the customer, who placed the message on the forum you sent me the link of, is disappointed and that other customers will be disappointed as well. Specially because we did reprint or refund these kind of models in the past.

    Unfortunately there is not much I can do about this and these are rules we have got.
    Kind Regards,

    Mrs. Christel Hagens
    Customer Service Agent
    www.Shapeways.com
    bkupton
    JUN 28, 2012 | 04:35PM CEST

  40. #40

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    Hey Zoe!
    You quoted me on Shapeways' forum!
    (Should I feel flattered or indignation right now?)

  41. #41

    Duann
    Guest


    Default

    Hey Keith,
    As previously mentioned, we will get the quality of these prints sorted out, our community manager is on it and she will be talking to customer service first thing am to sort out for you all.

    Thanks

  42. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
    To answer the question of where I got the tiny Camel printed, it was printed by the company that makes the 3D printer. A friend and I are looking at purchasing a 3D printer as a business. We looked at the ProJet 3000HD, but are now looking at a printer that will print in over 300,000 different colors. We are awaiting for some prototype samples to come back to check if they are except-able for gaming pieces. If they do work out for the table top, we should be able to offer pre-painted planes for about $10-$12.

    It's a huge investment, so we are taking it slow and researching it well.
    Sounds like a kickstarter project. Give the investor planes......

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Madboyo View Post
    Sounds like a kickstarter project. Give the investor planes......
    Something along those lines has been bouncing around in my head already.

  44. #44

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    I was about to order 20+planes. Am I the only one thinking that spending USD250 and expected to live with misprints makes sense. With no guarantees - Just WOW! Not the Wings type of WOW either!

  45. #45

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    I hope this is just bad communication within the company. I can live with errors, so long as they rectify the mistakes. That said, surely some quality control would stop those dodgy prints going out the door in the first place?

    If their policy of reprinting errors and shipping the replacements at no cost is not kept, then I guess I will be learning how to scratchbuild.

    As an additional point, it is good to see jbmacek on board with this, I wonder if Colinwe and Kampfflieger are going to chip in? They may see their sales drop just a tad...

    Dave

  46. #46

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    I had some stepping problems on an R-11 and they refused to reprint and ship but did give me 'credit' towards future purchase. I can see now how little value that credit was.
    This is a really bad idea from someone, who probably said, "these refunds are costing us too much."

    They say they 'know' that the problems come from how the model is positioned in the printer-- duh, why not print it the right way every time then?
    And yes, they shouldn't even SHIP a plane that looks as bad as the D-7 kit.

    Bottom line, if they can't do better, reliably, they don't need to be doing this business at all.

    I posted on FB also.

    Looks like someone is trying to do 'damage control' on the policy change. Better to do 'quality control' on the front end. Don't the Dutch know the 1, 10, 100, 1000 rule?
    Last edited by kduke42; 06-28-2012 at 23:20.

  47. #47

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    It appears from the "official" response that Shapeways know that print orientation is a factor with these models, however they continue to print in the "wrong" orientation because they want to fill the print tray to keep costs down. Is this a reasonable assessment of the situation?

    The problem here is that they are making a conscious decision here to print what they know could be a sub standard model, then using the cost implication as a justification.

    If you stood back and thought about this for a few minutes you would see that the problem could be avoided simply by printing something else in that spare tray area that was not dependent on orientation. What would the cost of this minor alteration to practice be? Possibly a minor delay to the customer, but that would be accepted if the customer understood it was to ensure a reasonable quality of their print. For every sub standard model that the customer complains about the cost to Shapeways, is either the cost of the reprint including staff time, which is nil profit, with additional postage and packing, not to mention the time staff take to deal with the complaint. This is probably greater than the original profit margin anyway. If Shapeways refund, then they lose the whole deal.

    I can therefore understand why Shapeways are keen to stop refunds \ reprints, and certain (bad) business models would adopt or continue with the “up yours” approach to customer service, gambling that the lost future business from an individual customer would be less in value than the time and effort to change their process and eliminate the problem. After all, very few of the customer base would be prepared to push this matter to a legal solution.

    Problem is, this is the 21st Century, and we all can now share our experience online – facebook, twitter, forums and blogs. Shapeways is a web based business, so they need to realise that if they don't address this issue, their Google search results will pretty soon start to return results mentioning bad customer services and experiences. In short, the customer base is now much more connected, so bad customer service (as I think this is) becomes an issue with a far larger audience of present and possibly future customers.

    So, is this matter really that important to them to resolve? Change the process to try and avoid the problem, because we all know they can, and give a guarantee that if the print is sub standard they will reprint. IF they do, then I, and I'm guessing the vast majority here will breath easy, place orders, and continue to spread the word that Shapeways is a company you can trust and put your money with. If not, every day this continues the number of Google hits on blogs, websites and forums is going to rise exponentially. A couple of days ago this was a single complaint by email, imagine where we will be next week?

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberst Hajj View Post
    Something along those lines has been bouncing around in my head already.
    Looking at the success of the Zombiecide, Ogre, Sedition Wars and similar KickStarters you could be in with a big shout there. I'd chuck $100 from across the pond at it no problem

  49. #49

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    Not good news from Shapeways, from their customer service reps responce it does seem our business is not that important to them to the extent that it's not cost effective to replace duff models. So I suppose we will see how much the lack of business from the aeroplane community is. Damn there goes my Westland Whirlewinds, but I'd not be a happy bunny with stepped models of them so not risking it.
    Hope your project gets off the ground Herr Oberst, I can see you getting a decent responce for your models.

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rat of Vengence View Post
    As an additional point, it is good to see jbmacek on board with this
    Yep. I buy plenty of these things myself. I'd be pretty disappointed if I spent $35 on my Caproni Ca.4, have it come back with stepping and be told "sorry, no reprint or refund."

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