youre only saying what many of us have been thinking.
"because I bought a used collection from someone a couple of weeks after Origins. " this seems to be a theme with you lol!!!
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But we need to also keep in mind how many inactive members we have - those who likely joined when they were regular players but have since moved on to other systems. The largest number of persons on the site at any one time peaked in 2012 - that may also be a telling statistic.
more like the unwanted redheaded exchange student. i cant speak about wgs as i was only in 1 wgs event, but i saw quite a few new faces in many of the wgf scenarios (including mine where 3 were apparently new this year and 1 was new last year) including several leaving the ares booth with an armload of minis after inquiring about good match ups.
my interest between ww2 and ww1 aircraft matches yours (ive been a big ww2 warbird fan for years, though i liked many ww1 aircraft as well) inn that i knew much more about ww2 a/c than ww1 (and probably still do though the gap has moste decidedly closed a bit) though i got into the game via ww1 and still prefer it over ww2. i love the minis from both though.
i think the interest in ww2 warbirds in the us airshow circuit has a lot to do with this. one of my suggestions to ares when it was announced that they were releasing b-17s (joy of joys as it is one of my most favorite ww2 a/c) was that the g should be one of the famous airshow circuit 17s. i was politely told that they wanted to stick with more historical paint schemes (despite the fact that several of the airshow 17s have historical paint schemes [ i suspect it has more to do with licensing and copyright laws]). i agree that certain iconic aircraft from both wars need to readily available (if not constantly) for the game to grow.
i think quad packs would be better for ww2 due to the nature of wgs gameplay (ie higher damage output and a/c dropping like flies lol). i do love the idea of seeing wings of glory in museum giftshops as wright-pat and am not sure why this isnt already a thing.
if they need to to ensure a more regular release scheduled for regular series releases i would like to see kickstarters for them as well.
im beginning to wonder if it hasnt already started down that path. in the time ive been working in a gane store (4.5 years) ive seen several new players showing a moderate interest in the game (i tend to promote it A LOT lol) move on to other thiings for lack of shiny new baubles on a regular basis. its frustrating. since getting my buddy tom into the game around august of last year, hes come to the conclusion that wings is far, far on the back burner and all but unsupported. ive been reassuring him this isnt that case, but im beginning to wonder if maybe hes seeing the state of the game more clearly through newbie eyes than the rose colored haze (from all the explosions at origins this year lol) through which i view the game.
Thanks Karl.
Apart from the bunch of friends I have through the game and this site in particular, that is the main reason that I bother to keep putting all the time and effort in to help Keith running this. To my way of thinking it is all a matter of footfall. Anything which gets peoples attention is better than nothing. Just look at the hits for Sniper's Times.
The support from Ares is patchy at best, and from all the doom and gloom which I am hearing here maybe I am just:deadhorse: and would be better concentrating my energies elsewhere just playing the game with my friends in Notts.
Rob.
No gloom and doom here chaps! Lots of models are still available you just have to look for them which can be fun. I scored a couple of Breuget 14's the other day.
Yes WW2 is the Tonx of WoG but my observations at Origins are the opposite to yours - I saw plenty of new players in WW1 games - I know that Jim's opener 'Fokker Fodder' had a load of newbies playing - 9/12 or something like that; he had a few in his 'Save the Cognac' game later in the show too and I had four or five out of the twelve in the game as well. Clearly not all games attracted new players but you can't draw conclusions without having the full picture.
I know from events here that WW2 attracts interest but my experience is that WW1 is what attracts more players to a table.
That's what people said years ago and mostly it's true, as it is with most game systems - yet we still attract new players every year as we did this year at Origins and elsewhere in the world.
As a newbie I was drawn to wings of glory over crimson red skies as I am not a painter and I love the pre-painted miniatures. Yes they are hard to get hold of but with a bit of google fu and a constant eye on ebay I am starting to build up a collection. I do think the KS idea is a good one for re-releasing old planes, and new ideas like tripods ,and the giant bombers, as you can generate enough pre-sales to make the production run worthwhile. As a massive collector of Star Wars X-wing I was looking for a good ww1 / 2 version to play with my so they can be educated.
WOG is never going to be a fad game. History is not in fashion these days, hence Ares's expansion to Tripods. Ares will have to cater to the smallish crowd of historical gamers and everything that entails to sustain this line. I hope there's an acceptable economy of scale that would make this a reasonably profitable venture for them. There does seem to be a profit to made in historical board games.
Yeah but the hat fitted - and there may have been no Vulcans in the BoB.... but it was a close call, he could have joined the Luftwaffe !
https://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/S...d594cd57a7.jpg
Nice one Dave. :clap: Spockhen Sie Deutsch.
Rob.
Three new members today. Two German and one Spanish, and that is excluding Spock.
Rob.
Availability is a huge issue. The two big hobby shops I originally got most of my inventory from don't carry it any more. I have a couple of friends that would like to get into the game but simply can't get anything. I had the same problem with SoG. There's some more planes for WoG I'd love to have but have never once seen them, anywhere.
I'm sure the near complete lack of marketing doesn't help matters any.
Yup.. Seems like the only people I've encountered who have heard of this game are the ones who already play it.
I will never understand why people would rather have weird ww2 or steampunk themed 'history'. How can that compare to the knowledge that, whilst we are only playing a game, real men and women had to do these things for real - often at the cost of their own lives. What can be more gripping than that?
Thank you all for your input, even if i don't agree with you all (and you don't all agree with me of course!).:thumbsup:
I'll try and provide a bit of perspective as possible one of the younger members here (in early 30's... yea, that's right, I called you all old :P ).
I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who was educated in the Ontario education system.
Simply put: People aren't exposed to it. In school we spend very little time on WWI (I think in my grade 10 history class, it was 3 days.. maybe a week). 99% of people simply think of WWI as trench warfare and nothing else. If you asked any Canadian to name a famous ace, you might get 'Billy Bishop'. You'd almost never get Barker, and if you mentioned Collishaw people would give you a blank stare. None of these people are ever mentioned in the education system, ever. WWI air war is never mentioned, anywhere. The horrendous casualties of RFC training program, and things like Bloody April are never mentioned, anywhere. It's simply not taught.
So what about after highschool?
People still aren't exposed to it. In the movies there's very little about WWI, and even less about WWI air war. And lets face it.. most movies we see on this side of the pond are made for a US-centric audience, and the US didn't have a huge role in WWI compared to well... pretty much anyone else. People aren't exposed to it. Now WWII movies? Those are still in the public conscious. The USA had a massive role in multiple theaters. The USA was the heroes.. people like that. Hollywood producers like that. People see WWII.
So how about real life? Go to an airshow.. how many kites do you see? How many WWII warbirds do you see? I'm willing to bet the ratio is 10:1. Walk around Legions and museums now and you can still find some WWII vets to talk to. Heck, I have this very fond memory of back when I was at flight school in Air Cadets spending a few hours chatting with an Me-109 pilot. I've never met a WWI veteran. Neither has anyone I know. People aren't exposed to it.
Finally, Ares doesn't market this game worth a crap. People aren't exposed to it. Could you imagine a 1:1 scale cardboard standee of Barker or Fonck or Rickenbacker in a hobby shop as part of a display with a large placard detailing their exploits next to a small shelf of these colourful little kites? I would bet real money that would get people interested real quick.
But people aren't exposed to it. It's not that they don't care. They just don't know any better. I can't help myself that every time I play this game with my friends I end up giving them a little history lesson on the planes and/or pilots.. they're always interested but just had zero idea about it (or they pretend to be interested because they know it's the only way I'll eventually shut up about it...).
You have to remember that people like us, who love this kind of history and actively seek it out, are not the majority of gamers, let alone the majority of the population. And I bet a lot of us got into WoG because of the historical context first, quality of the game second. I actually did a speech in school on the Red Baron. I'm weird like that :/.
Now X-Wing? Holy crap, FFG plasters X-Wing adverts everywhere and Disney plasters Star Wars on every single product they can from toys to oranges (no joke -they did that).
Get a hit WWI aviation movie (not that absolute crap that was Fly Boys) and do a product tie-in with WoF, and you'll see a massive uptick in interest for this game.
Otherwise.. people aren't exposed to it.
Nailed it Cody. I teach players a bit of history every time we get planes on the table, and as you say these are gamers who already have an interest.
When the movie ‘Hurricane’ comes out I am going to run a Wings of Glory WW2 table at the local cinema to promote the game and encourage some participation by those waiting to see it or fresh from the screening. With some product on hand to sell and wingsofwar.org leaflets I hope we can get a few more regulars to our local shops/clubs and this community.
It would be nice if Ares could put together some promo material linked to the film (hint, hint).
"and the US didn't have a huge role in WWI compared to well... pretty much anyone else." thats something of a myth. yeah the usa had a small (but significant) part of combat but it had a huge role on the material and economic efforts and an incalculable effect on morale, and strategy of both sides. but, as you say, its not touched on in the education system. you have to delve deep tp learn such things.
Sorry, that probably came across more dismissive than I meant it to.
Perhaps a better way to put it is that the US contribution to WWI is much harder to easily quantify when taken as a snapshot of everything that was going on at the time. It's much easier to create a semi-ambiguous historical fiction based on a snapshot of events the Brits or French were involved in, because you can draw on the entire war and even better, what little of the war people might actually be familiar with.
The USA was just so much more involved in WWII that you can pick almost any major event of the war (that people are far more familiar with) and chances are there will be some type of USA connection that will be familiar to the general populace. This is, of course, much more agreeable to Hollywood studios that are dumping major moola into movies.
Look at it this way..
In WWI, "everybody knows" the Germans flew red tripes. "Everybody knows" the "good guys" flew Camels.
What the heck is a SPAD? What's a "Newport"? Isn't that where the USA builds ships???
In WWII, "everybody knows" the Brits flew Spitfires. "Everybody knows" the Germans flew Messerschmitts. "Everybody knows" Americans flew P-51s (and Corsairs). Pick a year, pick a context, boom. Done. Easier to connect with people.
Well, the only way I'm ever going to see some of the older models is via the used route. And buying collections seems to be both the easiest and cheapest way (in the long run) to build a collection.
The down side is that I've done this 4 times now, which means 4 guys who no longer play the game. :(
no worries, im actually pretty used to that as its the general prevailing opinion. cant fault people for things theyve never been taught.
"The USA was just so much more involved in WWII " very true. the usas involvement in ww1 pales in comparison to its involvement in ww2. and, as you say its so much more dealt with historically and in popular culture (too much some would say).
all very true.
and OH BOY have you ever!!!!(i guess ill have to figure out a way to hang out with you after origins so i can get some of the overflow minis lol)
yes, that thought always crosses my mind as well. always makes me wonder why theyre parting with such fine collections. i find it a bit melancholy.
IMHO the "essential requirement" is starter SETS ALWAYS available. Pick 2 pairs for WW1, two for WW2 (Camel vs Dr1, SE5a vs D.VII, Spitfire vs Bf109, Zero vs Wildcat maybe) and make sure they are always readily available. Cycle through other models, vary the schemes in the starter sets to give old hands a reason to buy them too. But starter sets is what will get us new players - and it is quite depressing running parti games at events, getting newbies enthusiastic but them not then being able to actually get started in the game
A lot of truth in this Cody. Even here in the U.K. apart from the odd bit of news and documentaries because it is 100 years ago we have seen very little WWI material. As you may have seen we do try to promote the game at many shows throughout the country, but as you quite rightly say and as I have said previously, we are a niche within a niche, within a niche market in gaming terms. Honestly we have done well to get as many different aircraft models as we have. Neither Airfix nor Revel ever managed anything like it in all the years that they have been going.
Nevertheless, the fact remains that we do run out of basic aircraft types and Rules box sets on a regular basis and this is the other main factor in failing to grow our hobby successfully.
I will look into the cost of a cardboard cutout and display boards for our future shows. After all we used to do this sort of thing at ordinary wargames shows back in the seventies.
Rob.
Already tried it Phil. it always degenerates into a general free for all on what each members pet aircraft is and even when we tried to set just a few options, this happened. Then the usual moan about like what is going on here evolves from it.
However, we can try again if anyone has a way of keeping it on the straight and narrow.
Rob.
Australian kids DO get a large dollop of WW1 history thanks to our near-fetishisation of Gallipoli and ANZAC. But still not a whiff of the air war or the very prominent part our airmen played.
Even the Palestine campaign is largely boiled down to the Light Horse charge at Beersheba.
Gallipoli. France. Beersheeba. That's pretty much it, aside from what extra Western Front details might be taught. I'm pretty well informed as far as general history goes, yet even I was unaware of the Australian Flying Corps until this year, and assumed our pilots were just flying with the RFC and RNAS.
Unfortunately education is a sign of the times, when my boys were at school,
I thought .i would be able to assist greatly with history, the only time I helped was to make A ww1 trench section, with fire step, barbed wire and bumker and sap, from papier mache, history master promptly lost this work, then said it was not needed as they gone passed WW1, and were onto Churchill we will fight them on the beaches, the battle of britain was condensed to an air battle lasting a couple of months over southern england although they did get an outing to Filton airfiled, I live in Bristol, I dispared.
Education is a different story, I can only comment on primary as that's my field and as an amateur historian, I despair about the lack of content. Officially, the curriculum for Primary in the UK only goes to 1066, secondary pick up the rest later on. You can technically get around that by doing key points in British history but not all schools are brave enough to do it.
Secondly, most schools focus on Maths and Literacy because that is where the schools get judged so topics like history, get left to little more than a poorly created worksheet. There is little money for school trips from schools and living in the Somerset area, the Fleet Arm museum was deemed too expensive even though the class was doing WW2 (same for Bovington). I'm afraid unless you have a good teacher who is prepared to imurse children in subjects like history, it has become very stale, at least in the UK.
There is the age-old argument that wargaming is dying because young people aren't interested but I think that is only partially true. My son, for example, is only 5. He knows who Manfred and Lothar Von Richthofen are (though we still don't have Lother's planes) he can tell all the planes by nationality by looking at the roundels (though gets stumped by the Austrians) and he knows Fokker Dr1 and DVII and has great delight shouting out Fokker. However, the boy did not have a choice as history is my love and was my fathers. I think there are a wealth of young people out there who a keen to game but just don't know how to get into it. Whatever people may say about Games Workshop, they did a service of getting a generation of young people into gaming, albeit aggressively.
The other argument against young people is that computer games give children instant feedback. Why collect, and possibly paint, aircraft when you can load a flight sim and have it all out in front of you? But, there does seem to be a shift with people ditching computers in favour of tangible items such as board games. It's more social, it gives a greater experience and dare say it, it's safe. I hear lots of concerns from parents in regards to who their children speak to via online gaming. Wings of glory issue might be that for younger gamers the price is slightly high (though arguably no more than GW) Tripods, in my mind, is a good idea to get new people involved. I'm not sure about Battlestar as always thought that was a poor relation to Star Wars and Trek.
I would be interested to know from the chaps who put on games at Thornbury, how many people playing the participation games are younger people?
Finally, it has been said already, Ares will only sell what will sell. I understand that their limited print run means that things seem to sell well but I wonder how much profit Ares makes? Small margin possibly? There are all planes that we would love to see and we could all probably justify why they should be included but unless Ares can justify it, why would they sell it? The same issue is evident for those people who play Star Wars Armada which seems to have stopped producing any new models.
What would be better than Kickstarter would be a model like the GMT p500 where people pledge an amount. I think it would involve some organisation but you could have the system similar to Osprey where a list of planes is drawn up, people vote for which one they would like to be made. Then the top 4 are placed on the 500 club and people pledge to buy in advance.
I get the blank stare from people when I'm in Nanaimo, hosting demos of WGF, and say: "And this is Collishaw's Triplane, and you just have to have him on the table, if you are playing in his home town."
That leads into a quick history lesson, about a local personality that almost nobody knows about. How much that works for drawing people into the game? I need a Duel Pack with Raymond Collishaw's Triplane and Karl Allmenröder's Albatros D.III (actually any of Jasta 11 pilots of May-June 1917). Perhaps too local of a set?
Truth be told here in the states things have changed in history class a lot since we were kids. Most of us older types learned Civ war/WWI/WWII/ Korea in history class. But since we got out there has been Viet Nam, 2 gulf wars. and 20 years of middle east bush wars. What was considered history and current when we were kids is ancient history to the new crop. There are more current wars for them to study. No excuse, just a fact. We knew and could talk to WWII vets as kids...most are gone now for the current generations. But they have Viet Nam vets and gulf war vets they can talk to. I guess what I am saying is it boils down to exposure. They no longer have the same sources of info we had so key off what they do have access to.
Ironically, no one has done more to popularize WWI air combat than Charles Schultz.
As for models, I think in a few¹ years we will have full-color 3D printed models available. That will solve the inventory and production-run problems that we're currently suffering through, although we still need a solution for plane cards and maneuver decks. Hopefully Ares can get on board and have a line of planes always available via the 3D printers, so you can get an S.E.5a in your favorite paint scheme any time you want one.
¹ = don't ask me to define "few" or guess whether it will be too late. :)
I love WW1 air war, and will keep coming back to this sit for updates but we need more input of aircraft, cards, pilots, and so on. I have been drifting toward board games this last year. My heart feels heavy.