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sparty
02-10-2010, 19:34
So tonight we had an interesting situation pop up...

We had three planes overlapping in a straight line and were playing peg to peg targeting.

The rules say planes block LOS if they're at the same level and that overlapping planes may not shoot at each other.

So the question is...

Could the third plane in this three plane pile-up have a legal shot at the first plane given that LOS would have to be traced through the intervening plane which overlapped both 1st and 3rd planes. All planes were on the same flight level.

Charlie3
02-10-2010, 20:21
I would say no based on the idea that when the planes are in that close a proximity the pilots are too busy trying to avoid running into each other.

My other thought is that since all movement happens at the same instant in this game, there is no way to figure out what order the planes all occupied that spot. Your third plane could have been the first one there by a portion of a second!

If it wouldn't make things too crazy I would like to try forcing pilots who pile up like this to randomly choose their next maneuver reguardless of what they have played, to represent a paniced change of direction to avoid a collision. I know my players would gripe but it would be fun!

sparty
02-11-2010, 04:58
It was a really strange series of events that lead to that happening and it was a mess to untangle too because we had to figure out what order in which to move the planes and cards away from each other to keep the movement as accurate as possible.

I managed to be the first knocked out of the skies because we allowed the shot which I didn't think was a legal shot, but didn't speak up since it was with a new group of people and it was kind of a petty point since I was there to have some fun.

Now...the interesting bit was that I was on fire, smoking, had engine damage, and already had 6 damage on my Me-109....and even with the kid tailing me it took 4 full game turns to bring me down that's how lucky I was getting on my damage chit draws...

Scoop
02-11-2010, 08:41
Three planes overlapping on the same level sounds like a massive crash to me.

sparty
02-11-2010, 09:45
The game had 2 adults and 2 teenage kids so the rules were a bit "loose" since for 2 of us it was the first time with WW2 rules, etc.

Either way, I was just look for some post-game vindication to ease my mind.

Scoop
02-11-2010, 12:05
In this case I agree with Charlie :)

The Blue Baron
02-12-2010, 04:14
I would say that the answer is: there is no official answer because peg to peg targeting is a house rule. The official rule is peg to base or peg to plane. Or am I wrong?

LGKR
02-12-2010, 08:45
I would say no based on the idea that when the planes are in that close a proximity the pilots are too busy trying to avoid running into each other.

My other thought is that since all movement happens at the same instant in this game, there is no way to figure out what order the planes all occupied that spot. Your third plane could have been the first one there by a portion of a second!

If it wouldn't make things too crazy I would like to try forcing pilots who pile up like this to randomly choose their next maneuver reguardless of what they have played, to represent a paniced change of direction to avoid a collision. I know my players would gripe but it would be fun!

Oh you can bet I'm preparing my list of gripes fpr next league game. :D

sparty
02-12-2010, 16:31
I would say that the answer is: there is no official answer because peg to peg targeting is a house rule. The official rule is peg to base or peg to plane. Or am I wrong?

It was some goofy house rule. When I got there and asked about targeting they said peg to peg and I asked if they meant peg to plane.

Here's the answer I got:

Peg to peg is a much more accurate way to play because you'd be shooting at the plane. I brushed it off and just said, "Well, to be honest, these planes were flying at such a high rate of speed they likely occupied the area of the entire card rather than a specific point at a specific time on that card."

Like I said before, I wasn't there to make waves as the new guy on my first night. It was fun to play, but I had a feeling I got kind of screwed on this ruling.

Oberst Hajj
02-12-2010, 23:23
Peg to peg is for line of sight to see if you have a shot. Peg to base/plane is to see if you are in range.

As long as you had fun, does it really matter much?

sparty
02-13-2010, 05:39
I'm going to be running some demos and I'm trying to get a feel for what's the most common way to rule on some of these things.

I definitely had fun and that's why I didn't make anything of it at the time! :)

Charlie3
02-13-2010, 06:21
Peg to peg is for line of sight to see if you have a shot. Peg to base/plane is to see if you are in range.

As long as you had fun, does it really matter much?Really? I don't remember this rule from the offical sets. We have always just measured from peg to card or stand, if the range stick touches any part of the target card or stand without touching anything else it is in line of sight and filled with holes! I guess I need to re-read the actual rules, we have several League rules that we use instead and sometimes I confuse them.

Charlie3
02-13-2010, 06:35
It was some goofy house rule. When I got there and asked about targeting they said peg to peg and I asked if they meant peg to plane.

Here's the answer I got:

Peg to peg is a much more accurate way to play because you'd be shooting at the plane. I brushed it off and just said, "Well, to be honest, these planes were flying at such a high rate of speed they likely occupied the area of the entire card rather than a specific point at a specific time on that card."

Like I said before, I wasn't there to make waves as the new guy on my first night. It was fun to play, but I had a feeling I got kind of screwed on this ruling. I think you are right about the plane being on the whole card for targeting. The card/stand represents the general AREA that the plane occupies, and there could be any number of angle differences between the shooter and the target in real life. Since this is a game and not a quantum physics experiment, we really don't need to deturmine the EXACT location of either body in the 3D planes of space and time.

Peg to peg seems really difficult and I would think it would extend the time needed to play a single game quite a bit. Our games with peg to card/stand with an average of 8 players only take about 25-30 mins each allowing for card selection and changes of mind and general chit chat. However each to his own! That's what I like about this game, it is very flexable and you can alter the rules without screwing the game up too much!

sparty
02-13-2010, 09:51
It wasn't as tough as you'd imagine, but it also wasn't the slugfest that the game is known for either. I mean there were plenty of shots that were like JUST out of range or became the regular damage instead of the close range damage...which in this game has a HUGE difference in how long planes survive.

In terms of getting new people plenty of turns before they get shot down, it's a great exercise. In terms of preserving the spirit of the game and provided rules, it definitely diminishes the whole experience.