Shapeways on the site

[Oberst Hajj]

The discussion below was brought up in another thread on a different topic. I felt that it should be in it's own thread and discussed on it's own merits....

[wargamer]

Mike, I can see where you needs have changed, but from the research I have conducted, the vast majority of players are not buy Shapeways models. There is a select group (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?6335-How-many-Shapeway-minis-do-you-own&highlight=shapeways) that do, and they tend to buy a lot of them, but alas, they are not the majority.


Didn't know about the research, just had a feeling that the consensus was that Shapeways needed to shape up a lot more before they were ready for primetime purchasing.

Frankly, the amount of messages on the Shapeways new products and new ideas seems to me to be a continual infomercial... how to turn it off? I suggest move all the Shapeways stuff to Market Place. Then remove the Market Place from being in the new message batch area. And if Shapeways and its salespeople are unhappy, let them buy advertising space from you.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Didn't know about the research, just had a feeling that the consensus was that Shapeways needed to shape up a lot more before they were ready for primetime purchasing.

Frankly, the amount of messages on the Shapeways new products and new ideas seems to me to be a continual infomercial... how to turn it off? I suggest move all the Shapeways stuff to Market Place. Then remove the Market Place from being in the new message batch area. And if Shapeways and its salespeople are unhappy, let them buy advertising space from you.
Whilst I can quite see your point about the informercials Al, it would be a pity to restrict the availability of the development of some very good paint schemes and all the other spin offs that come along with it. We are after all trying to bring as much information and ideas as we can to all our pilots, even if they are a minority group. Where would we strike next? The card models would need to go, followed by Skytrex and Reverisco products. Very soon there would only be the official minis left. I feel that this sort of censorship would spoil the whole ethos of what makes this site unique, and I for one would deplore this situation arising. Self moderation has always been our forte here chaps, so if we are upseting anyone lets just tone it down a bit with the posts, not ban them to some backwater where non but the informed can find them.
I am not a Shapeways user, as some of you may have realised, but I do respect the right of those who are to be represented.
Rob.

[Burt]

Didn't know about the research, just had a feeling that the consensus was that Shapeways needed to shape up a lot more before they were ready for primetime purchasing.

Frankly, the amount of messages on the Shapeways new products and new ideas seems to me to be a continual infomercial... how to turn it off? I suggest move all the Shapeways stuff to Market Place. Then remove the Market Place from being in the new message batch area. And if Shapeways and its salespeople are unhappy, let them buy advertising space from you.

I don't think Shapeways have 'salespeople' on this site, I and others bring to the attention of people, information on new planes etc. that may be of use to the members whether they are Shapeways or any other supplier. Are you suggesting we restrict ourselves only to official products which have been almost impossible to get hold of. Shapeways do offer planes for people that maybe can't assemble an intricate kit but can make a stab at painting an assembled plane.

[wargamer]

I understand your point... But it would be nice to be able to avoid stuff, it seems most days I come online and the new messages are all bout new shapeways products... it would be nice to see something else... especially since the new message area only covers so many messages and then slides off. Mayhaps a switch selection in profile about stuff you do not want to see or stuff you want to ignore. And I think the idea about charging them for advertising still has merit.

[Oberst Hajj]

From an administrator's stand point, the whole Shapeways subject has actually been a difficult one for multiple reasons.

1. There is a lot of threads and information out there on it. With the official minis being all but nonexistent, it seems everyone is looking for an alternative. Many have found that Shapeways is not the way forward for them (my self included). For those not interested in the latest Shapeways news, all the threads and post about them are troublesome. For those that like Shapeways, those same threads and posts are a welcome site.

2. Since I do run limited adverts for different online stores here on the site, the Shapeways models bring up a unique concern in that department as well. I personally view the Shapeways models as a viable alternative for many of the users and the continued growth of models as a hobby outlet for our members is important to me. Since Shapeways the company is not on the site actively trying to sell products, I've not done anything about Shapeways. However, we do have two members on the site that design the models that our members purchase. These designers have in the past used this site pretty much solely to advertize their new designs and gather feedback and desires for new models. I have contacted these members and discussed this dilemma with them. Both of them have declined to become paying advertisers on the site and I have asked them to stop posting "product announcement" threads on the site. I have encouraged them to take part more in the community outside of their designs, but that does not appear to be happening. I am pretty sure that both are still contacting members directly about their new products and then letting those members spread the word for them. Not much I can really do about that with out "dropping the hammer" down on Shapeways in general here on the site (which I do not want to do!).

I've already taken the steps I'm comfortable with on issue #2 and will readdress it as needed. For issue #1, I'm actually thinking about creating a new forum section just for Shapeways threads in the Hobby Room section. I think it would not only shield the non-Shapeways members from all the traffic, but it would also gather all of it into one location so things were easier to find for those that want to keep track of it.

Any thoughts on that?

[Burt]

As one of the guilty parties for promoting the Shapeways products I think that your suggestions are a good idea.
In defence of Kampfflieger I don't think he has actually advertised his planes on this site, I think it is mostly down to me and a couple of others being enthusiastic about new products for the game.
Where would you put Shapeways painting projects, people showing their own work? In the hobby section as now.

[Belis4rius]

I don't buy Shapeways because I think they are too expensive for me, however I do like to see what is available and mayhap one day I will be tempted if the price is right. The numerous threads do not bother me, it is like television, if you don't want to read them don't click on them. And if you want other content then this starts at home, put something up, don't leave it to others.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

As you can see from my earlier post Keith, I am pretty much in accord with your stance on Shapeways. I am sure that with your usual tact and careful management of the situation, all parties can be mollified. The idea of segregating it to another thread would seem to be a good one, and leaves those who want to view free to do so, whilst the rest of the members can ignore it. I trust that I did not overstep the mark with my earlier posting. I did not intend to upset anyone.
Rob.

[Guntruck]

I didn't percieve Kampfflieger and Colinwe as overtly advertising their wares here - indeed it is the likes of myself, Zoe and Don who put up notices of new aircraft. I'd be happy to have a separate thread for Shapeways, but as for painting projects I think they should be treated the same as Skytrex and Reviresco projects. Unless of course some is suggesting separate threads for them?

[IRM]

I'm not really a buyer of Shapeways aircraft (although I do use them for other stuff) but I don't have any problems with the current Shapeways release threads as is. Past the initial announcements (which, as noted, are more commonly made by members other than the designers) many of the comments tend to be about paint schemes, modelling or the subject aircraft's history and game stats. Well within the hobby section's remit IMO.

[Oberst Hajj]

I do not want to have to make a special place for every type of mini or kit out there... that's one of the reasons I've not made a section for Shapeways as of yet. I would also prefer that the threads about painting them remain in the Hobby section even if a Shapeways sections was made. Then there is the discussion about the planes historically or about their stats. Those are other messy point of this whole thing.

Kampfflieger never really got into posting his Shapeways stuff as I had already talked to him about it concerning his paper models. As for Colinwe, he never made a post that was not about his Shapeways models, and all 19 of the threads he started were to announce his new models. I by no means dislike these guys and am happy to have them on the site. I just have to be consistent when it come to advertising on the site as we do have paying sponsors.

Since the Anti Shapeways (just a label lol) people most likely could care less what happened to the Shapeways type threads, I guess the real question is for the Shapeways Fans... Would you prefer to have all the Shapeways related discussions in a single area of the forums to make it easier to keep track of?

[Bluedevil]

I only read this after I, ironically, made a post about a Shapeways model.:p

I do have a couple of thoughts about it but first I must tell you that I couldn't find the initial post... SO I might have missed something.:hmm:

After reading all posts in this thread I came to the following conclusions :

- Some people ( a few) hate to see a lot of posts about Shapeways
- Some people ( a few ) are worried that Shapeways has "hidden agents around here (that looks like a bit of paranoia to me:confused:)
- Some people ( a few ) want to see different things to read when they enter the site

I would like to point out that the fact that you see things about Shapeways when you enter the site ( at the moment Shapeways is mentioned 15 times on 25 possibilities) is because the members that talk about it are the most active members ( you only get it mentioned when you post about it..that's why it is so proficient now...because we talk about it we do the same about Skytrex, Reviresco, Dom's decals etc...))
So my conclusion is that the members who are complaining about it are not as active as the others...:slysmile:

My solution: open a thread once and a while..I'm sure you 've got interesting things to tell that we could all learn from. Become more active on this site ..you could open some interesting discussions... ( that aren't about Shapexways...)

The sole point I can agree with is that Shapeways gets a lot of free advertising here...because they have some very pleased customers here that are enthousiastic about their products and what is wrong with that ?:confused: ( Mouth to mouth publicity is publicity in its most honest and oldest form )
Besides those posts open up discussions about that particular type of aircraft and I thought that was one of the purposes of this forum : to learn about WWI aviation and the hobby.:thumbsup:

I like to see what other forumites do as far as modelling goes be it Shapeways, Reviresco or Skytrex or something entirely different...:clap:

For those who complain : think what you can change yourself before you start well ..."whining" :takecover:.. I've seen other beautiful websites close down because of a couple of individuals who felt discriminated or whatever when all they had to do was participate ...:mad:

If you open up a thread I'm sure you'll get lots of interesting reactions .. We can't now what your "forte" is if you never tell us:serious:, who knows we have similar interests.:D

I'm not interested in everything I see on this forum ( for example the game-technical side about stats and cards is way beyond me :smack:) but would never dream of asking those threads to be removed or banned to the deepest dungeons of the forum.

I think its a bit selfish to do so :serious:


For the record: I don't want to start a flame-war here: those who feel spoken to well...they probably are:hmm: and maybe they should think things over.

We 've got a good thing going here so may I suggest that we keep it that way?:pray:


( Sorry for my ranting here...:embarass: needed to get it of my chest :surrender::surrender::surrender:)

[gully_raker]

:salute: As one of the buyers of Shapeways models, so far 10 only (as well as Reveresco & Skytrex due to lack of Official Models) I think a separate Section to announce new Aircraft posted by Forum Members & NOT the designers would be a good idea.
However we now have a third designer joining the ranks so how would Forum Members find any new Designers Models?
Perhaps any new chaps could PM one of the Site Leaders?
Incidently I dont think it has all been a Positive promotion of Shapeways as Forum Members have not been backward in making known any defects in Shapeways Models they received.

On the matter of Painted Models & Historical Schemes I firmly believe they should remain in the Hobby & Historical sections as would any other types of Painting/modeling.
E.G. Metal, Resin, Paper, Card or Wood. Afterall all of these are Hobby Modeling!:thumbsup:

Oh & dont forget we also get "Heads Ups" on F-Toys & Official new Wings of Glory announcements.

[Zoe Brain]

I'd be happy to have a sub-forum for new model announcements.

OK, at the moment, 95% of that would be Shapeways, but that's only because they release more models in a week than all other manufacturers combined do in a year. That may change. I don't think the sub-forum should be confined to any particular firm, when Reviresco or Skytrex produce one, they should get the same treatment. Same when new card models come out, to let prospective purchasers know what's put there that's new and unseen before.

I've tried to not just post an announcement, but also to post a picture, and also some specimen colour schemes, and some facts about the aircraft too.

It may be a good rule of courtesy that the manufacturer themselves don't make the announcement, only people actually ordering the product. Also that rather than a bald announcement, there must be a "value add" - paint schemes or URLs to more data.

One goal we should aim for - not to irritate people not remotely interested in the things. I'm not interested in card models, as I don't have the skilll to assemble them, but I feel those who do should be given information by those of like mind. If I saw general hobby threads being dominated by a dozen new card models per month, month after month, perhaps I'd be irritated too.

Whether we have one sub-forum for all new announcements, or one for each manufacturing process - plastic, 3D print, card, metal, or by manufacturer, that's up to the Oberst. I'd be happy with any of them. The point is, we're irritating some members, so separation is a really good idea.

[Bluedevil]

I just think that the need of the few should not outweight the need of the many... But I'm ok with a seperate thread if that is what is needed to keep the peace :p


And that was the last thing I'm going to say about it...

[gully_raker]

:) The last thing I want to do is cause any offence to any Forum Members :serious: but I just wonder how many are actually annoyed by the numbers of Posts on Shapeways?
Perhaps Keith you would like to run a Poll to get members feelings. :confused:

However if you wish to make a Sub Forum its really fine with me!:D:thumbsup:

[COLBATMAN]

Here Here Steve!

[berthier]

I've made several post about shapeways products and have nothing to do with them. i'm about to make another next week when the paint job is finished and it will also mention Dom's decals. I'm perfectly happy to have a separate forum for shapeway releases. The output from the designers is becoming I have to say, frenetic so I can see how it has become to take a large number of posts on the site. Another one went up today (Nieuport 17) just after the Spad2/4 earlier. (the discussion of which I found very interesting).

By all means a separate forum if this all offends some members, it's not an issue.

[Zoe Brain]

Another one went up today (Nieuport 17) just after the Spad2/4 earlier.
16 I think.

[berthier]

err yes 16, always had problems with those numbers above 10 :)

[Oberst Hajj]

One thought to put out there... a separate sub forum does not have to "the deepest darkest part of the site"... have a look at the main list of forums under the Report For Duty section. I've modified it so that all the sub forums now show in in nice neat column.... oh, and I made it were you could see all the different Wings out there (and take part in them). If you are still running IE7 or lower, they will show as just one long column. Nothing I can do about that but tell you to update your browser! lol

[jbmacek]

On one hand, gamers playing other games should be so lucky! (Seriously, like them or not, Shapeways is going a long way toward keeping this game alive.) On the other hand, there's the free advertising thing. On the gripping hand, either way it doesn't really affect me. The free advertising is a moot point from my perspective. As far as I know, Keith pays the bills for this site, so the decision to charge someone for advertising is entirely his. However, as has been pointed out, it is really our fellow forum members drawing our attention to these new models, and not the producers themselves. And even then the announcements are under the banner "Shapeways" as opposed to the names of the guys making the models. This should raise a question like... "clipper1801 sells some of the models he makes [so I assume], so is he getting free advertising too?" Or even me, for that matter, since I've sold two planes via ebay and did make mention of the fact here.

Make a "New from Shapeways" sub-forum if need be. I'm okay with that. As long as the post is just an announcement of a new plane, I'm not sure it deserves to be in the Hobby sub-forum anyway.

[Oberst Hajj]

This should raise a question like... "clipper1801 sells some of the models he makes [so I assume], so is he getting free advertising too?" Or even me, for that matter, since I've sold two planes via ebay and did make mention of the fact here.

Clipper did pop up on my radar when he started producing all the Zeps and the like. I made the decision that the advertising rules needed to only apply to "massed produced" products and members/posts that have little other value besides "buy me" notices. I felt he was just short of mass producing products and many of this threads do offer valuable content.


I've tried to not just post an announcement, but also to post a picture, and also some specimen colour schemes, and some facts about the aircraft too.

It may be a good rule of courtesy that the manufacturer themselves don't make the announcement, only people actually ordering the product. Also that rather than a bald announcement, there must be a "value add" - paint schemes or URLs to more data.

Zoe, posts about a Shapeways model are the ones I like the best and are the standard the rest should try and reach. I doubt this subject would have even come about had everyone put the effort into their posts as you have. Keep up the good work!

[The Cowman]

Keith I think you have it perfect. If the posts are not submitting something of value to the community or entertainment to the community then they do not belong. An Ad is an Ad, and some of these posts being discussed were just that. The rest of the discussions have merit and belong. I like the idea of them being placed in a sub forum to make them easier to find, and to take a slight load off of the news feeder.

[Boney10]

Then Al dont read the thread.
I agree with Burt here, I am not a Shapeways agent, in fact when they first started I was quite against then due to quality.
This has improved so if/when I see there is a new aircraft I will pass on the info, this does not mean anyone has to read or buy the item. I wish we could still get official minis , there are lots of colour schemes I would love to have a go at, but they are now almost impossible to get.
So what is wrong with letting people know there are other models available. You say all you see is Shapeways, well I seem to recall a few threads showing Skytrex new kits and threads for Reviresco decals, I dont recall seeing any new models from there.
Shapeways are mentioned a lot because we got at least two designers, for want of a better word, who are listening to members saying i wish we could get this or that aircraft and are supplying.
As I said at the start, if you think this is an advertisement for Shapeways and you dissagree, then dont look at it, im sure there are plenty more items to read.
For myself, I am quite happy to see what else is available and see other members painting to get inspiration for my own models.
So for me Herr Oberst leave things as they are please, I can always pick and choose what to look at :)

[Oberst Hajj]

I don't think it so much the fact that people can not just ignore those threads, I think it is more that a lot of people use the Recent Posts feed on the Home page to check and see what is going on with the site. Since there is only 25 slots for new items to appear on that list, often many of them are just Shapeways threads.

I am leaning towards creating a separate Shapeways section in the Hobby Room. It solves the issue some people are having and does not take anything way from the site or the fans of Shapeways models. Seems a win-win to me.

[Polluxx66]

Just my two cents. I have nothing against Shapeways or the people that collect them. I only participate in the WGS hobby side. For WG1 I am more than content with official minatures. If Shapeways made 1/200 planes I would probably be a more frequent poster. I usually skim the recent posts thread as opposed to looking through the forum menu since I usually only have a few minutes here or there. The current recent threads domination of shapeways trend just makes me look more often to make sure I don't miss anything.

With nothing official from Nexus in a very long time and the current understandable delay with products from Ares anyone breathing life into the hobby is a good thing in my opinion. I am sure as official products start being released balance will be restored as we have new toys to talk about.

Basically after all my rambling my point is anything new and adding to the hobby is good.

[Volant Gun]

I agree with Boney10 to keep things the way they are.

I don't want to see other people (Keith) having to create more work for a minority of people. We should not get ourselves wrapped around the axle on something that less than 0.00000000001% of the people on this site have an problem with!

Don't create more work for yourself Oberst Hajj. Please the masses not the one individual.

VG.

[Jager]

I think in this case, a Poll would be the thing to do; while a New Products sub-Forum would work, if it would only satisfy a small percentage of the forum members, than it would seem unnecessary. If a sub-Forum becomes desired, it should include all non-Ares products, not just Shapeways.
Karl

[David Manley]

"But it would be nice to be able to avoid stuff"

No-one forces anyone to read every post on the forum. I appreciate the heads up on new Shapeways models as I do the "how to" articles on building Skytrex and Riviersco models. I don't see any point in creating a new forum for Shapeways or other manufacturers.

"Since there is only 25 slots for new items to appear on that list, often many of them are just Shapeways threads."

But often they are just loads of "welcome to the group" messages, or other exchanges of marginal interest to many readers. Should they be canned off somewhere else as well? No, of course not. Leave things as they are, that would be my advice.