B Damage Deck

[Nekrodamus]

My son and me don't play with the explosion (finally it's just a boring 'damage 16' card), but enjoy the extra fun of the additional damage effects. Now we introduced our first single MG plane and had to recognize, that its jamming chances are higher!?

To our mind this is illogical and a needless additional penalty, so we took out two 'zero dammage but jamming' cards from this deck. This reduced the jamming chances from 13.95% to 9.76% (per card, deck w/o big bang, A-deck has 11.76%).

The average damage increased only slightly from 1.07 to 1.12, which is still weak compared to the 1.65 of the A-deck.

Any comments on our house rule would be appreciated.

[Oberst Hajj]

I tend to try and not mess with any of the fundamental game mechanics. While for 1 vs. 1 dogfights, removing it might be okay, it could adversely effect the game balance when using more planes.

For example, say you have four planes flying. Three use the Type A deck and one uses the Type B deck. All three of the Type A plane will pull their "bullets" from the same deck. Meaning, that there is only one explosion card for the three of them (I know you said you pull it out). With only one person using the B deck, they have an explosion card all to them selves.

Another thought is that the early guns (those represented by the B deck) did in fact jam more often.

The last thing to keep in mind, is that the B deck came out with Watch Your Back. That box set introduced the two-seaters to the game. Since they have two guns, they should have an increased chance of jamming (potentially more bullets shot by that plane).

[Nekrodamus]

Didn't I read anywhere that 'B' means a single MG and that 'A' represents two of them? Checking the file with the timelines there are some early As and some late Bs. Perhaps this 'more As in the late years' only reflects the fact that twin linked MGs became more and more common during the war?

If I'm right on this assumption, double MGs should have double chances to jam or to follow the ingame damage relation have their chances increased by the factor 1.5, but if you are correct the decks are fine as they are. Is there any chance to ask someone in the know?

Right now our standard dogfights are A + A + A vs. A + A + B/B. That means double A deck and therefore a total of 3 explosions at 114 cards. Allthoug 2.63% are objectively small chances, we tend to loose to much planes this way. Of course this might be a personal effect only, just like e.g. our Warhammer misscast statistics. ;)

Your point about fairness aspects while using two-seaters would be true if we wouldn't have A/B, B/A and even A/A two-seaters too.

[Oberst Hajj]

There is reference by Andrea for the single and double MGs using B and A respectively. I was throwing out other things that might have been behind the decision to include more jams in the B decks.

When Andrea gets back from vacation, I can ask him. I'm actually trying to setup and interview with him. This might be a good question to put in that.

[kaufschtick]

Didn't I read anywhere that 'B' means a single MG and that 'A' represents two of them?

That's what I read too...somewhere. "A" damage decks are twin MGs and the "B" deck is a single MG.

[WilliamBarkerVC]

Perhaps the increased jams in B represents one gun getting jammed more than two guns?

On a related note, I got frustrated every time the old Browning GPMG would jam, on the ground; I can't imagine having to clear a jam whilst flying!

[Nekrodamus]

Searching for further hints I checked the two FAQ at Yahoo! (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/wow_nexus/files/FAQ/) again and both clearly state that A/B (only) represent 1/2 MG.

Grant you might be right that the higher amount of B jamming might be intended to reflect the total loss of firing power.

But if there were any thoughts in this direction at all, we should have seen way more A jamming cards (2x shots = 2x risc) and rules about half / nill damage while one / both MG are jammed just to balance both type of planes properly. Of course this additional complexity wouldn't fit the overall complexity level of the (basic) game.

Right now I still think it happened accidentaly. Perhaps Keith can get some more info from Andrea.

[WilliamBarkerVC]

Right now I still think it happened accidentaly. Perhaps Keith can get some more info from Andrea.

I too think it's just an accident. And you're right about the 1/2 jam, 1/2 damage - too complex to work into the game.

I keep the decks the way they are, personally, and just play them without worrying too much. We all seem to have fun!

[Thinkpositiv]

First, a hello to this WoW community :)
[And excuse my english, if it is not correct in any way.]


Didn't I read anywhere that 'B' means a single MG and that 'A' represents two of them? ...

I read that too, the article Optional rules for Wings of War (http://www.wingsofwar.it/read.asp?id=1272) on the official website mentions two rules, named "Firing with a single machinegun" and "Jamming twin guns (A firing planes)". There you find information like this:

When you fire with an A weapon, that represents twin guns, ...

I got the game last week. One of the first experiences was the explosion damage, which took out one of us very early, leaving him alone for the remaining 30 minutes of our first game. We took out the explosion cards after that first game (agreeing with Nekrodamus). Such a "critical damage" card has most likely a historical right to exist and mimics the reality. But in a strategic game like this one, taking out a plane/player after 10% of the playing time has elapsed is inadequate (in our opinion).

[Charlie3]

Hello! I just joined up and wanted to put my 2 cents worth in.
I have been playing for about 2 months and have already formed a league at the local game store. Most of our players have no history background and I have been explaining why certain planes work the way they do, and what the planes were actually like.

There was some question about the number of zeros in the damage decks, as well as some complaints about the Explosion card (especially when it is the first damage card you draw!) Here is my explaination for the mix.

First the zero cards. These planes were mostly an open wooden frame with silk cloth streached over it to create a surface. So the plane is full of alot of nothing and covered by a material that a bullet can pass right through with no resistance. That is why when you shoot you are most likely to hit nothing. You will notice that when you do get a result it is not too pleasant hence the special damages.

Now the Explosion card. You need to think of the Explosion card as Catastrophic Damage to the plane. It could mean that the pilot has died instantly from the shot, or a wing may have broken off during a maneuver due to being weakened from bullets chewing up the wing spar, or the prop which was a large one piece of laminated wood has been chewed up and a blade has broken off. Any of these results would cause the plane to become completly uncontrolable in any way!, and since there there is no real protection that's the kind of stuff that happened.

If you think the guns are jamming too much, simply use the Bullet Checker rule printed in the rule books which means that you ignore the Green jams but not the damage!

I have been playing aircraft games for nearly 30 years and find this game to be the best balance between playability and accruacy. I will never play any other WWI flight game again!

If you would like to see just how much nothing is in one of these planes here is a website that has some computer generated illustrations of several of the planes in the game. This one happens to be a Neuport.
http://mwmiller.theaerodrome.com/n17/n17fin_full.jpg

[Charlie3]

Sorry I forgot to mention. We have been allowing players that crash and burn in the first 5 game turns to re-enter the combat area with a fresh plane from a random table edge. This represents a plane that has come across a combat in progress and joins in! Plus it allows the "unlucky" to keep playing. Sometimes they even switch sides!!

[Nekrodamus]

That really sounds like a nice idea, thanks for the tip.

[WilliamBarkerVC]

Sorry I forgot to mention. We have been allowing players that crash and burn in the first 5 game turns to re-enter the combat area with a fresh plane from a random table edge. This represents a plane that has come across a combat in progress and joins in! Plus it allows the "unlucky" to keep playing. Sometimes they even switch sides!!



We do this too. It just doesn't seem fair when the first card is the explosion, but it sure is funny to everyone else!

[Oberst Hajj]

Charlie did an excellent job explaining the how and why of the damages. Good job man and welcome to the site!

I'm a big believer in leaving in the explosion card as well. We also treat it as an "out of the game" card instead of an instant death card (although, it could mean instant death, just not always). We don't let people re-join the fight in our campaign or league games, but for fun games we do. During our league and campaign games, there is usually a balloon or ground target the eliminated player can control. If not, they just hang out and have fun watching the action!

Thinkpositiv, a warm welcome to you as well. No worries about your English, it's way better then our German I'm sure!

[Nekrodamus]

And way better than a lot of Germans' German too. ;)

Again and again it's frightening how many things we (especially me) read and forget right afterwards, thanks for the reminder Björn. (By the way, can you all read Thinkpositiv's first name properly or should we write without any umlaut like I did it over at the bar as a precaution?

I had a look at those rules about jamming twin guns and think that they even increase the allready given advantage over single guns. Allthough this is realistic it is unsportsmanlike too.

Right after reading the rules I was thinking about replacing all A cards by two B for a few testing games and to register the jamming of every single weapon seperately.

Thinking of this again, the increased complexity, the superior damage (2xB > A) and the need of at least a second B deck made me think: "Stop this nonsens, keep things easy and stay with your first idea." ;)

[Oberst Hajj]

Another thought on why a B deck would jam more often then an A deck... there is only one gun, so when it jams, the plane loses all ability to shoot. An A deck has less jams because it is less likely that both guns jam at the same time... meaning that it more often has at least one gun to fire. Does that make sense?

For the number of zeros in the two decks, the A deck would have less zeros because it is shooting two guns so has a better chance of hitting some thing of importance.

[Thinkpositiv]

...
If you think the guns are jamming too much, simply use the Bullet Checker rule printed in the rule books which means that you ignore the Green jams but not the damage!

I have been playing aircraft games for nearly 30 years and find this game to be the best balance between playability and accruacy. I will never play any other WWI flight game again!
...

Hey Charlie, thanks for the detailed description. I was aware that there're reasons for 0 damage and explosions, and that they have a realistic background (like pilot dying, destroyed fuel pipe, etc).

This "balance between playability and accuracy" is exaclty what I meant. And in our first rounds, we found it to be a bit more accurate than playable. But with the mentioned optional/extra rules, we may consider taking them back in again. ;-)

Apropos, what is this "Bullet Checker rule"?
My WoW Miniatures Rules just include the
Tournament Rules
- If you want to have less luck in the game, take all the "explosion cards" (*) out of the A and B damage decks.
Ah, I just downloaded the wingsofwarrules.pdf, it also includes this Tournament Rule. But I still can't find the "Bullet Checker rule".

btw: If your keyboard does not contain a "ö" (or ä or ü), you can write oe (or ae or ue) instead; that's the official substitution. So Bjoern does very well for Björn.

[Charlie3]

I checked my rules books and downloads. The rule is not in the WoW mini's rules download, but it is listed in scenario 3 (On the Way to Become Aces) on page 7 of the Watch Your Back! box set and on page 18 of the Burning Drachens box set.
Quote from Burning Drachens
BULLET CHECKER
“Bullet checker” pilots checked every single bullet before taking
off and discarded the defective ones, so when they fire, ignore the
jamming damage result on cards with a green cross; bullet-checker
pilots jam only when their target draws a card with the red cross.
This rule is only listed in these two scenario sections. I have also seen it listed in many forums as an optional special Ace Skill for pilots with 5 kills. Check out Col Hajj's Knights of the Air campaign rules for more add on skills for your pilots and reasons for them.

[Thinkpositiv]

btw: Did you know that "Drachens" in title "Burning Drachens" is a german word?
Drachen means either kite or dragon. The suffixed "s" is an anglicised pluralisation (in german, "Drachen" is both, singular and plural).
I guess both of them (Burning Dragons as well (or even more than) Burning Kites) fit well :)
A mature title for a game...

[LazyEyedPsycho]

As far as I know, pilots tended reffered to Balloons as "kites" (because they where tethered to something on the ground?). Drachen = kite makes even more sense for the name now... originally I thought it reffered to a specific type of balloon.

Thanks fo rthe info Thinkpositiv :)

[Zeppelin]

btw: Did you know that "Drachens" in title "Burning Drachens" is a german word?
Drachen means either kite or dragon. The suffixed "s" is an anglicised pluralisation (in german, "Drachen" is both, singular and plural).
I guess both of them (Burning Dragons as well (or even more than) Burning Kites) fit well :)
A mature title for a game...

Thanks for this post. Makes sense now.

[The Blue Baron]

First the zero cards. These planes were mostly an open wooden frame with silk cloth streached over it to create a surface. So the plane is full of alot of nothing and covered by a material that a bullet can pass right through with no resistance. That is why when you shoot you are most likely to hit nothing. You will notice that when you do get a result it is not too pleasant hence the special damages.

I just want to add my two cents to that. Additionaly the zero can mean that you simply miss the oppnents plane. Beeing in shooting distance does not mean that you have to hit all the time...

[Oberst Hajj]

I actually asked Andrea this very question in the interview, which he answered with good detail.