Converting the Skytrex "BE2C" to a late BE2C...

[Wombat]

Flying Officer Kyte (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/member.php?236-Flying-Officer-Kyte) has written a very good "How to" (http://www.wingsofwar.org/content.php?24-Building-a-BE2c.) for the Skytrex BE2C (http://www.skytrex.com/282/red-eagle-british-aircraft/) before. What disturbes me though is that the Skytrex BE2C seems to be a misnamed BE2B!

To produce a BE2C I had to move the lower wing backward, make the cockpit openings smaller and replace the stabiliser/elevator, rudder and add a late production curved fin. I also gave the nose a late production lower cowling over the engine sump. For the stabiliser/elevator, rudder and fin I used cardboard impregnated with superglue, and for the cowling and cockpit openings I used Green Stuff.

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I later discovered that I forgot the dihedral of the mainplanes of all things! :smack: After some really careful bending though the BE2C looks like it should and is now ready to be cut down by some Eindeckers... :guns:


/Jörgen

[Linz]

Nice work
Love the group of early aircraft
Hope ARES brings out some early aircraft.
What stats are you using for the BE?
Linz

[Wombat]

I am going to use the stats from this post (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?5110-Help-custom-card-for-RAF-BE-2&p=71861#post71861). P-deck without immelmann and always in loaded condition.

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25512&d=1319353842



/Jörgen

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Very nice bit of modification there Jorgen. I only did my early birds in the expectation that by now we would have some Hun Eindeckers to fight by this time.
I hope that Ares come up with the goods soon, otherwise I'm going to have to start building my own.
Rob.

[Doug]

Nice build good result

[Linz]

Why the two gun arcs? Surely if it could fire rearwards then then arc should cover all of the rear and the blind spots rule deals with the tail.
Or am I missing something here. Apart from some brain cells.
Linz

[IRM]

The pilot would get a bit upset otherwise :) The gunner sits in the front seat and fires over his head.

[Wombat]

I am toying with the thought of making the arc only cover the area between the ones I have now, and still use the blind spot rule. I.e. The gunner can only fire at targets on the same level at far range, or at a target one level above.

/Jörgen

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I am toying with the thought of making the arc only cover the area between the ones I have now, and still use the blind spot rule. I.e. The gunner can only fire at targets on the same level at far range, or at a target one level above.

/Jörgen

That would seem to give a fairly accurate interpretation of what a gunner in the situation could fire at without taking out his pilot, or danaging the structure of the aircraft Jorgen. I do something very similar with my 2B/2C.
Rob.

[Jager]

I had thought that it's because the gunner has to move the gun from 1 side mount to the other, so you woyld have to declair which side the gun was on, and have a unusable segment/turn switching.
Karl

[Linz]

With the gunner under the wing shouldn't the arc of fire (red dot) be further forward?
Also not sure how well the gunner could fire upwards from his position without taking of the top wing. Looks dicey.
I have seen some photos of Be's with guns firing forward which would have similar fire arcs and caring three machine guns two to the rear and one forward.
Linz

[AlgyLacey]

With the gunner under the wing shouldn't the arc of fire (red dot) be further forward?
Also not sure how well the gunner could fire upwards from his position without taking of the top wing. Looks dicey.
I have seen some photos of Be's with guns firing forward which would have similar fire arcs and caring three machine guns two to the rear and one forward.
Linz

Do'nt suppose you've copies Linz? Or a link? - I would hav thought the added weight of more than one Lewis would mean the poor old thing wouldn't actually take off! Or more realistically become even slower and harder to fly in anything other than a straight line.

[Linz]

Here's one with Two Lewis mg's
http://www.thescale.info/news/publish/printer_be2c-detail-photos.shtml
I'll see if I can find the three gun one I saw
Interesting that the position of the rear gun would allow for shooting over the pilot
Linz
One for our Belgium friends also with two mg's
http://www.google.co.nz/imgres?q=BE2c+Aircraft+photos&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&tbm=isch&tbnid=SGz5Cm1v4rU_vM:&imgrefurl=http://riseofflight.com/forum/viewtopic.php%3Ff%3D49%26t%3D13937&docid=dCGfBZ1eKqFd2M&imgurl=http://www.baha.be/images/Milpics/WW1_%2526_precursers/be2c7.jpg&w=721&h=506&ei=lommTqTaNZLYiQKxxqy5DQ&zoom=1&biw=1024&bih=690

[edit]Specifications (B.E.2c - RAF 1a engine)

Data from British Aeroplanes 1914–18[16]
General characteristics
Crew: Two, pilot and observer
Length: 27 ft 3 in (8.31 m)
Wingspan: 37 ft 0 in (11.28 m)
Height: 11 ft 1½ in (3.39 m)
Wing area: 371 ft² (34.8 m²)
Empty weight: 1,370 lb (623 kg)
Loaded weight: 2,350 lb (1,068 kg)
Powerplant: 1 × RAF 1a air cooled V-8 engine, 90 hp (67 kW)
Performance
Maximum speed: 72 mph (63 knots, 116 km/h) at 6,500 ft (1,980 m)
Endurance: 3 hr 15 min
Service ceiling: 10,000 ft (3,050 m)
Climb to 3,500 ft (1,070 m): 6 min 30 s
Climb to 10,000 ft (3,050 m): 45 min 15 s
Armament
Guns: Normally 1 × .303 in (7.7 mm) Lewis gun for observer
Bombs: 224 lb (100 kg) of bombs
(With full bomb load usually flown as a single-seater, without machine gun)

I wonder if those aircraft with more than one mg were used for observation not bombing this would allow the extra weight of the additional MG's
Haven't been able to find Three gum model.
Linz

More
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Operational_B.E.2c.jpg

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Here's one with Two Lewis mg's
http://www.thescale.info/news/publish/printer_be2c-detail-photos.shtml
I'll see if I can find the three gun one I saw
Interesting that the position of the rear gun would allow for shooting over the pilot
Linz

Good clear pics which show two obvious things Linz. The gunner would have no problem firing over the pilots head or sliding the gun to either side without any delay, and as long as he avoided the prop he could deploy his forward gun to either side in a small arc of fire. Time to amend my card methinks.
Rob.

[Zoe Brain]

From the BBC series "Wings" - genuine BE2c, with a Port oblique Lewis Gun.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jesjp8aFD7g


Photo for a Starboard Lewis Gun, also fired by the pilot.

http://www.2.airwar1.org.uk/images/gun%20on%20be2c%20%2715.jpg

Photo of the usual rear-firing position of the Lewis - though there were often a few pintle mounts where it could be placed.

http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/5/9/6/1/4/a591785-112-BE2c%20Strange%20Mount.jpg

The apparatus next to the pilot is for mounting a camera - as here:

http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/2/8/1/2/8/a819343-181-Be2c%20cam2.jpg

This is probably the norm - the observer possibly standing to fire.

http://williamwhitson.com/graphics/planes/BE2c-II.jpg

Here's one with rear-firing and observer's oblique gun:

http://www.belgian-wings.be/images/Milpics/WW1_&_precursers/be2c7.jpg

And a Belgian conversion where they did the obvious - and added a synchronised Vickers for good measure, and a hispano engine.

http://www.belgian-wings.be/webpages/navigator/Photos/MilltaryPics/ww1_precurseurs/RAF%20BE2c/BE2c-Gallez-Walter---De-Crombrugghe-Marcel.jpg
http://www.belgian-wings.be/webpages/navigator/Photos/MilltaryPics/ww1_precurseurs/RAF%20BE2c/BE2c-17-VdM.jpg
http://www.belgian-wings.be/images/Milpics/WW1_&_precursers/be2c_hispano_web.jpg

No Bristol Fighter, manouvering and speed would both be "sedate" - but not too far from an RE8. Waste of a good engine though.

[Jager]

Good clear pics which show two obvious things Linz. The gunner would have no problem firing over the pilots head or sliding the gun to either side without ant delay, and as long as he avoided the prop he could deploy his forward gun to either side in a small arc of fire. Time to amend my card methinks.
Rob.

Not to be a Devil's Avocate, but I'd like to know where they got the information for their repro. Everything I've read, some from period accounts, is that the front observer BE-2s had either a rear firing pintle mount, or a pintle mount on either side that the gun had to be manhandled to fire changing the firing arc. The wiki pic isn't clear to me how the side gun is mounted. Rather cramped for the observer too, regardless on what they did. The side fireing gun with an observer was a surprise, though. Wonder if they were "escorts", what with the extra weight?
Karl

[Linz]

Bearing in mind that the aircraft could carry 100kg of bombs with two people on board (With full bomb load usually flown as a single-seater, without machine gun) note the word usually, therefore the weight of 20kg for extra Lewis with ammo is well within the payload of the aircraft.
Which would be fine for recon type work.
Would not like to try two people two mg's and 100kg of bombs. Me thinks could struggle to get of the ground.
The Hispano engine they fitted was the same as the one in the Spad VII and the early version of the one fitted to the Spad 12Ca. Anyone fancy a field conversion with a sigle shot 37mm firing through the propeller. That would give the Be a sting. I wonder if anyone thought about doing it?
I imagine a conversation between the pilot and gunner something on the lines of "i'm about to fire so give me full power and hold on" pilot answer "what do you mean give me full power this is all we've got" gunner "okay then prepare to go backwards"
Quite a good idea mounting the cannon to the engine as the recoil would be absorbed through the fuselage framing rather than an edge as on the Vision.
Linz