Sails of Glory, do you plan on playing?

[Oberst Hajj]

How many of you fly boys plan on joining the navy when this game comes out?

[LGKR]

Count me in.

[rote Flügel]

I'll buy the initial starter to see what it's like.. I used to love the old Avalon Hill, Wooden Ships and Iron Men.. so this kinda gets me excited

[flyingryno]

same here. I have a dystopian fleet right now. FSA

[Ginarley]

My initial impression was kind of luke-warm and then I thought about pre-painted miniatures of the big warships of that era and I was instantly sold.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Got to give it a try at least.
Rob.

[wargamer]

Hey, would be nice to have a new game, and worse case, could use the mini's in wooden ships & iron men game.

As far as navy... would be nice to have some ww1 seaplanes.

[David Manley]

Probably. It depends on the rules. if they give a decent game that has a suitably historical feel to it then yes. If not and it ends up like Warhammer Historical's "Trafalgar" then I'll pass (good looking rules but too many areas where i just ended up thinking "why did they do that when it would have been so easy to fix...). And a big plus will be whether it is tied to prepaints or not. If it comes as a set that can be bought without minis then I'll be more tempted than otherwise. To be honest the lure of prepainted minis isn't a draw for me as I have a hundred or so 1/1200 Napoleonic naval minis already from Langton, Skytrex and GHQ, and another hundred or so in 1/2400 from Figurehead. Plus a load in 1/450 from Peter Pig (although these are more suited for games in earlier eras). For earlier eras, yes. I have a medieval naval project on the go at the moment and some prepainted cogs and caravels would do wonders for that. Likewise for my Korean turtle ship project. Although I suspect I'll be waiting many years for anything that will be useful for those projects :)

So, to sum up - yes if it comes in a box like "Famous Aces", maybe if it is only available in a box with prepaints (unless they are spectactularly lovely)

That said, as a naval wargamer of long standing (including 1:1 scale on occasion) and having held several posts in the committee of the Naval Wargames Society, I'd welcome anything that gets more players into the naval side of the hobby :)

[IRM]

Afraid not, there's another miniatures system coming out in November that looks likely to eat up a large chunk of my gaming budget. Might still give it a go further down the line when the product line's further developed.

[Doug]

Today at the club the initial view was one of keen interest from all.

[Marechallannes]

Yes, of course!

I'am big fan of the Napoleonic Age.

Vive L'Empereur!:salute:

[Nightbomber]

Definitely worth trying because of the idea and the author behind it, but I'm not a seawar gamer at all.

[Mitchell422]

OH yeah, I've been looking for a complete system. Hey why not come out with ship cards and miniatures. Just like WOW. That way you try the starter. If you like the mechanics, then you buy the miniatures. That's what I did for WOW.

Mitch

[Oberst Hajj]

SGN will not have a card version. It will be miniatures only.

[grumpybear]

All ready started into Trafalgar, but if minis are same scale asGHQ. then probaly

[mr7q]

In for a starter set. Anything past that is up to how fun the game is! Of course, with the man in charge, I anticipate it being a hoot!

[IvanTT]

I was a big fan of WS&IM in the 80's so yeah I'll play it. I'll be more interested if they make it to doing Ancients like the article said.

[David Manley]

SGN will not have a card version. It will be miniatures only.

Bummer, they may lose out on a lot of potential players that way.

[Zakopious]

GHQ has produced 1/1200 Napoleonic ships for many years.
They are priced from $8.75 to $13.95 US dollars.
If you were really lucky, you might find a collection of these ships for sale at a convention or on eBay.
See:
http://www.ghqmodels.com/store/napoleonic-micronauts-battle-sails.html

[Oberst Hajj]

Bummer, they may lose out on a lot of potential players that way.

I think it is a safe move. Wings of War did not really take off until they added the miniatures. There is a reason the miniatures are sold out every here and the core sets/booster packs are not. Not making a card version of SGN will free up a lot of need cash and will allow them to release miniatures more often... or that should be the effect.

[David Manley]

It might well be safe, but it risks alienating a large number of players who already have large collections of 1/1200 models. I sense that WoW tapped in to a considerable frustration amongst modellers who wanted to get into WW1 air wargaming but were put off by all those struts. Perhaps why WW2 hasn't done as well for WoW since 1/200 and 1/300 models are that much easier to do. Looking across my collections of wargaming friends who are into air gaming, the WW1 crowd are almost entirely WoW based (albeit moving on to more complex systems in some cases); for WW2 all but a couple use other systems. Looking at my naval wargaming colleagues there seem to be alot mor eplayers wit established fleets out there. A few may appreciate pre-paints (as long as the quaility is good) but most would appreciate a chance to use the new system with their existing models. It should be possible to accomodate both new and existing players, I would have thought.

[Oberst Hajj]

Well, miniatures is what sells and they are a business. Besides, I'm sure all you established navy guys will find a way to use all those ships if the rule system is good. And I'm pretty sure most of you will be fine with spending around $50-$60 for a good rules set if it comes with a couple of nice pre-painted minis (I can't see the quality be less then the planes). I mean, you already have hundreds of them... is 4-6 more going to hurt? lol

[Anav]

I cant wait for this to come out.....

[Dorb]

My gut says yes, but will wait to see what the ships look like and what reviews come back. I'm sure it will be hit. The ships will remind me of the small ships in "Broadsides and Boarding Parties" (Milton Bradley Gamemaster series) that I have from way back in the 80s. The moving mechanics worked great for that game with cards.

[IvanTT]

@ David: I'd say WW2 hasn't done so well because of the subject matter of the minis. The line should have started with p-51's, Fw-190's, Spits, and Bf-109G's. I like the early war stuff but it is not what most folks are after myself included. I still like AH's Airforce for WW2 too much as well.

I think SGN will likely be a great entry level game for those who aren't into hardcore wargaming (which seems to be most fo the gaming community these days) as it seems that simple games are the rule of the day. I've tried to teach enough Avalon Hill Gladiator and Circus Maximus at Vul-Con events in the past 6 months to a younger crowd to know that complicated games tend to boggle their mind for the most part.

[Oberst Hajj]

I cant wait for this to come out.....

I knew you would be in. LOL

[Anav]

I knew you would be in. LOL

Dont Hate!!.....Prepainted warships models is Awesome!!! I have a crap ton of GHQ models....still grey....

[g.paoletti]

Maybe is my answer.

Money are the discriminator!

G.

[David Manley]

Ivan, I think you are right to some extent on the WW2 angle, the choice of initial WW2 minis hasn't been that wonderful. Mustangs and Fw190s would have sold like hot cakes I suspect. On the naval front, yes I'm hoping the new game will act as a pull to new players. ome to think of it, prepainted roman chariots and a "circus maximus" playmat would probably do rather well too!

[David Manley]

I mean, you already have hundreds of them... is 4-6 more going to hurt? lol

Yes, if I'm also shelling out on new WW1 prepaints. There is a recession on you know :)

However, my point stands. I can see very good reasons for pushing the game as "minis only", I can see plenty of value in an introductory set with (say) 4 frigates and some small terrain (I'm thinking card islands or shore batteries here) for $50-$60, but I can ALSO see considerable benefit in making the game materials available without models. Its like manoeuvre decks in the expansion packs. I can quite easily make up my own, but I'm happier buying things like Immelmann and Crossfire to get the decks I need for the extra minis that I have acquired (and flight stands too). I would like to be able to have the same opportunity with this new set of naval rules.

[James Denberger]

I'm in if it will have the prepainted and assembled mini's. That been the primary reason I've no assembled fleets. Just to small and fidly for me to put together. :surrender:

[Boney10]

Been wanting to do this type of game since watching, Captain Blood, The Sea Hwak and then Gregory Peck in Hornblower, so a resounding yea from me

[petitbilbo]

I answered "Maybe".

The reason is that I like ships, especially pre-steam ships.
But I haven't really got a clue about his game!

What do we really know about it anyhow?

:confused:

[Attila57]

READY TO TAKE OFF!:embarass:SORRY, TO UP ANCHOR!! ;)

Attilio

P.S.: But WoW/WoG remains my favourite

[flash]

Napoleonic stuff doesn't usually float my boat but the war at sea does (pun intended). Whether I diversify further may be the question for me. WoW is already a pleasant distraction from my main WW2 & Modern skirmish systems & not sure I would add another - unless it was really good!
Has Keith offered to be the Grand Admiral for a forum yet?! :D

[Attila57]

Napoleonic stuff doesn't usually float my boat but the war at sea does (pun intended). Whether I diversify further may be the question for me. WoW is already a pleasant distraction from my main WW2 & Modern skirmish systems & not sure I would add another - unless it was really good!
Has Keith offered to be the Grand Admiral for a forum yet?! :D

Do you image our Oberst Hajj with this hat?

23957

It's not a Joke Look at this link: http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/object.cfm?ID=UNI0245

[Diamondback]

In principle I'm interested, in fact it's gonna depend on the buy-in cost--looks like I'm sitting out A&AAFM unless the prices settle down or I can justify it to the beancounters.

[tuladin]

The opinion among friends at the local game store was very positive - we're definitely on board!

[Bluedevil]

I f the price is right I defenitely am going to buy the starter set...from there on we'll see

[BobP]

I just saw this thread and where to I find out about this new naval game?

[KiwiAce]

I'm very keen -- I already have a sizeable collection of resin 1/1200 ships but haven't played Napoleonic naval for years -- it'll be great to be able to dust them off and launch them again.

Having said that, they are relatively old models and are nowhere near as nice as the GHQ and other 1/1200 miniatures available now. so I'll likely still look at buying some of the official miniatures.

I do hope that the official ones are going to have removable masts.... ;-)

Allan

[Evad 77]

If the ship miniatures are as nice as the aircraft, count me in!

[Tommy Z]

I'll want to see it first, but very interested.

[alpine]

As long as it comes in a starter pack I'll most likely be picking one up.

[Diamondback]

Offtopic: Ran into James Denberger at a local model shop--nice meetin' ya, JD!

[crashx]

Looks like a new game over the horizon!! Aye, aye Skipper!!

[Cujo8-1]

Yes.

[Ed2]

Can't wait to buy them all.:thumbsup: Loved WS&IM.

[Ed2]

SGN will not have a card version. It will be miniatures only.

That's a shame.:cry:

[Marechallannes]

Still got an avatar and a nickname for "Sails of Glory":

François-Paul Brueys d’Aigalliers, Comte de Brueys

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Fran%C3%A7ois-Paul_Brueys_d%27Aigalliers.jpg

...and this time, I'll send Nelson down the bay of Abukir.:mad:

[Niek_vD]

Our club is more into age of sail than any other period, so I'm in, and half a dozen others as well.

I'm not sure about the models. Depends on scale (we have 1:1200 and 1:3000) and quality. Have to see, but we also might regret the absence of "cards only" sets.

[va beach ace]

sorry did not read everything here so my question may already be answered. shen is this coming out and is there a site or place I can go to look at this? I LOVE the sailing ships!!! I builf the waterloo minis, have many ship-of-the-line models build. so I'd put this up ther with WoW
bob

[va beach ace]

soory about my spelling in my last post!!

[David Manley]

QUOTE]...and this time, I'll send Nelson down the bay of Abukir[/QUOTE]

I think not, old chap :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/HoratioNelson1.jpg/250px-HoratioNelson1.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Luny_Thomas_Battle_Of_The_Nile_August_1st_1798_At_10pm.jpg

;):thumbsup::salute:

[Pseudotheist]

This is gonna depend a lot on the rule set. Wings of Glory doesn't really need terrain rules, and we can forgive the absence of "Hun in the Sun" advantage because it would be difficult to implement, but if this new game doesn't have at least a decent set of rules for windage, and some guidelines for terrain, like sandbars, they'll just be pretty ships.

[Jager]

I'm voting maybe; wouldn't mind looking at the system, but hobby money has gotten tight. I understand the business reasoning for minis only, but would have liked the option of a card set to try.
Karl

[Flying Officer Kyte]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Luny_Thomas_Battle_Of_The_Nile_August_1st_1798_At_10pm.jpg


No Todd! The rules won't make any difference. The outcome will still be this.
Remember what Bismark said. "Rule Britania. Britania waves the rules".
Rob.

[David Manley]

Indeed! Up Spirits! Splice the mainbrace!!!

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/03/28/article-1165569-010D8A6A000004B0-883_233x423.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AG88WKICgUE/TaIv21zgbOI/AAAAAAAADik/p1i7Uz3vVDo/s1600/rum-shipmates.bmp

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I'll drink to that me hearties.
Kyte.

[Marechallannes]

Dreadful Engländers - sunk my flagship... :cry: :cry: :cry:

http://endtimepilgrim.org/boystood3.jpg

The explosion of L'Orient during the Battle of the Nile.

[Oberst Hajj]

Has Keith offered to be the Grand Admiral for a forum yet?! :D I've laid the ground work to start a site for it. Don't expect any thing before the end of the year though. We move into the new house in two weeks, so lots of stuff to do before and after that. Then it's all the holidays over here.

[David Manley]

Best of luck with the house move. Never easy, especially with model collections to shift!

[Rat of Vengence]

Interested. As someone else said, depends heavily on cost, scale and if windage/weather is incorporated. I don't see myself being immersed (not literally :P) in a age of sail game where wind has no bearing...

Dave

[Kahlerclan]

Sounds like a blast (pun intended). I really like the wings game mechanics so the translation looks fun! SAIL HO!where away?

[Mike George]

I know I would get a good look at the game.

[Hunter]

I voted 'Maybe'. I am heavily into WoW/WoG and I have a huge Dystopian fleet (Prussian Empire). I will take a gander at a starter set and make a final decision. I do not have the desire nor inclination to be in every game that comes along. For example, I enjoyed playing Dust Tactics and I have done well in it at Vul-Con! I'll fill in to play, if someone shares, like I share my planes with other WoW players/newbies, their 'troops' with me, but I have no desire to purchase the stuff for that. Besides, these games cut into my firearms, shooting, hunting, and ammo reloading budget - my primary 'hobby'!

[Stormkahn]

How could I resist, I still regret selling on my WS&IM set...

Not to be flippant but problems are what you make of them, if the lack of cards is going to put you off then you probably aren't that bothered anyway. Let's face it it's a lot easier to knock out a few home grown cards than the minis...and I've no doubt that the fan base will have this covered if there's a requirement. Let's not create problems based on pure speculation!!

cheers me hearties!

Dave.

[Skullduggery]

I'm in....now to find time to play

[itchy]

No not for me .

[David Manley]

:thumbsup:
Not to be flippant but problems are what you make of them, if the lack of cards is going to put you off then you probably aren't that bothered anyway. Let's face it it's a lot easier to knock out a few home grown cards than the minis...and I've no doubt that the fan base will have this covered if there's a requirement. Let's not create problems based on pure speculation!!

On the contrary, I am bothered. I want to be able to support this game, but I'd like to be able to do it using official products where possible. If all I have to do is (for example) download some manoeuvre decks and print them out then fine I guess, but I'd much rather be able to obtain official product to be able to do so. I don't see this and other postings necessarily raising "problems" or "idle speculation", more a case of making Ares aware of some issues and areas that they may wish to consider when looking at the strategy for this game. Consider this as soem market research well in advance of the final product being decided. I'm hoping that Ares and Andrea are reading posts like this and using them to gauge the mood, pick up ideas that maybe they hadn't thought of before, etc. iof they do and reject them then fine, but having been in simialr situations with other products over the years I would quite liked to have been able to release an inkling of "the plan" a year ahead of launch and got a bundle of feedback prior to the event.

For the record I am fully behind the "miniatures only" approach, on aesthetics more than anything - I don't as a rule play WoW with anything other than miniatures. But an approach that drove gamers to solely use Ares prepaints would not get a :thumbsup: from my perspective, any more than (for example) being driven to play Flames of War only with Battlefront figures and vehicles, or AK-47 only with figures from Peter Pig.

[Von Hinnebusch]

There goes all my lunch money... Anchors away lads!

[Zakopious]

Nexus pushed us into printing our own movement cards and damage cards because these items were not sold separately when we needed extra copies.
Instead, Nexus required us to purchase booster packs at ~$10 to get movement cards.
There is no good way to purchase additional damage cards.
Hopefully, Ares will make it possible to purchase individual components of the game when we need them.

Battleground by Easy Eights was ruined when they brought out the ugly 30 mm miniatures and did not allow use of 25 mm or 15 mm figures in tournaments sponsored by Easy Eights.

It appears that Easy Eights chose 30 mm figures so that gamers (such as myself) who had large collections of 25 mm WWII figures would be required to buy new figures.
The marketing strategy was flawed.
Easy Eights may have never recovered the costs of producing the ugly 30 mm figures.

[Dan-Sam]

I really look forward to it - I want to try something different from WWI and II and I like Aubrey & Maturin novels really much. I wonder what Andrea creates for us :)

[somaliavet]

I am a maybe, I really like the idea, but not sure I would have the extra cash. (Especialy after Ares starts releasing models.)

[Kenny43]

Sounds like fun to me! I would definitely play it

[jbmacek]

Oh yes, if it includes pre-painted ships, I will be there, even though I have very little interest in Nelson's navy.

[CappyTom]

I said yeah only if the models are as good as the Wings of War models.

Tom

[Angiolillo]

Thanks a lot to everybody for your interest in this new game.

An interview to us authors has been published here:

http://gioconomicon.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6008#ev

(there the translation into English, scroll up for the Italian version).

A Yahoo discussion group as the one dedicated to WoW/WG has been opened a few hours ago there:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/SailsofGlory/

Have fun!

Andrea

[Oberst Hajj]

Thanks for the heads up Andrea. I've posted the interview here (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?6684-Sails-of-Glory-Andrea-and-Andrea-interviewed-at-the-masthead-of-the-Victory!) as well for the members.

[von Klauser]

Must sell more blood.

[Stormkahn]

:thumbsup:

For the record I am fully behind the "miniatures only" approach, on aesthetics more than anything - I don't as a rule play WoW with anything other than miniatures. But an approach that drove gamers to solely use Ares prepaints would not get a :thumbsup: from my perspective, any more than (for example) being driven to play Flames of War only with Battlefront figures and vehicles, or AK-47 only with figures from Peter Pig.

I love playing with minis, so without a doubt I'm behind you in many ways. My pitch to Ares would be to produce a starter set that was affordable and sufficiently useful. :)

So taking DoW as an example, I'm happy paying £25 for the base set - it allows me to try the game and provides sufficient components to play a few sensible scenarios - say 4 player BoB. I'm not so happy about paying out £50 for the deluxe set, minis and all, that gives me a real mixed bag and historically only provides a 2 player game (baring in mind that 2 player is struggle and doesn't show the game at it's finest). DoW is a great game, I was hooked and had no problem upgrading to the minis.

Taking up your other point the scale chosen for DoW, whilst not excluive to DoW, is damned tricky to source from elsewhere so I'm sure they tried it on. I'm a fan of the free market, if Ares have a good balance between cost and quality then they will get my money (assuming they have the range), if not....

I'm looking forward to this, it's spooky because I dusted off some rules I bought (Action Under Sail) and wondered about getting some ships....:thumbsup:


;)

[Oberst Hajj]

We've had word that the starter set for Sails of Glory will contain 4 miniatures and the rules/materials needed to play. Know word on which minis they will be just yet.

[Valkyrie_14]

If I can buy a Prussian navy or an Austrian/Hapsburg navy I'm in. Of course hope the RN, USN, MN and Spanish Armarda are in there.

[Skullduggery]

Napoleonic era is just the first ships. I'd love to see ironclads use the wings of glory system.

[Mike George]

Didnt lord Nelson have a patch over one eye?

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Didnt lord Nelson have a patch over one eye?

No Mike! He was blinded in one eye at Calvi, but never wore a patch over it.
Rob.

[Guntruck]

Napoleonic era is just the first ships. I'd love to see ironclads use the wings of glory system.

No doubt we can look forward to several threads along the line of whether HMS Victory can do an Immelmann :D

[Paul Cox]

No Mike! He was blinded in one eye at Calvi, but never wore a patch over it.
Rob.

He did, however, have green cloth eyeshades fitted to some of his hats, to protect his good eye from the sun, and these may have given rise to the patch confusion.

Paul

[wargamer]

No doubt we can look forward to several threads along the line of whether HMS Victory can do an Immelmann :D

Well of course not. Only the Germans are allowed that when they get drunk. British ships are already drunk, so they won't try. French ships just don't have the proper incentive to try it. On the other hand, Spanish ships in the Caribbean are allowed that maneuver when in hurricane conditions. But as Al Stewart points out, they don't come back from an Immelmann turn. Well, eventually some of them come back in bits and pieces, as modern treasure hunters find them. Perhaps we could create a scenario where these ships try the thatch weave, or barrel rolls, wouldn't that be pleasing to the eye :)

[Marechallannes]

Ever heard of the Flying Dutchman, Al?


;)

[Guntruck]

Well of course not. Only the Germans are allowed that when they get drunk. British ships are already drunk, so they won't try. French ships just don't have the proper incentive to try it. On the other hand, Spanish ships in the Caribbean are allowed that maneuver when in hurricane conditions. But as Al Stewart points out, they don't come back from an Immelmann turn. Well, eventually some of them come back in bits and pieces, as modern treasure hunters find them. Perhaps we could create a scenario where these ships try the thatch weave, or barrel rolls, wouldn't that be pleasing to the eye :)

Presumably the seagoing equivalent discussion is going to be about tacking and wearing. Which raises a question: how will they incorporate wind direction in the rules? For some reason I voted 'no' in the poll, but I can probably see myself buying a set to see how they play. Hey-Ho, time to dust off my Langton ships.

[Marechallannes]

Which raises a question: how will they incorporate wind direction in the rules?

Think, they can handle this with fast and slow maneuvers.

For example, you have to determine the wind direction at the beginning of the battle.




But there are other questions, like entering maneuvers, or loosing speed and firepower after taking a lot of hits.

[Angiolillo]

Sirs, the playtesting started in the previous decade. We spent quite a lot of time to work to keep the game simple but to take into account wind, sails, fatigue, crew losses, structural damage, special damages, different ammunitions, decreasing firepower and much more. Something in the basic ruleset, something with optional/advanced rues already in the starting box as in WoW/WG. Please be patient if I can not tell you more at the moment. In the meantime, it is very interesting to follow your comments.

[Tommy Z]

Sirs, the playtesting started in the previous decade. We spent quite a lot of time to work to keep the game simple but to take into account wind, sails, fatigue, crew losses, structural damage, special damages, different ammunitions, decreasing firepower and much more. Something in the basic ruleset, something with optional/advanced rues already in the starting box as in WoW/WG. Please be patient if I can not tell you more at the moment. In the meantime, it is very interesting to follow your comments.

OK....I'm even more interested now! It sounds like they are on top of it!:thumbsup:

[Rat of Vengence]

Sounds really good Angiolillo, I am pretty keen :D
Thanks for telling us what you can :)

Dave

[csadn]

I just wonder how the designers are going to get around the fact that, except for a brief period around the American Revolution (thank god :) ), Britain had the only effective deep-water navy on the planet -- the rest were poorly-led and/or poorly-equipped. In fact, the last halfway-decent opponent the Royal Navy faced was back in the 1600s, during the Anglo-Dutch Wars.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Yes! Thanks for that Andrea, It has wet my appitite even more.
Rob, alias Hornblower.

[Tommy Z]

hmmmm...Sails of Glory Seaport, Harbor, Anchorage?:confused:

new site opportunity Colonel?

[Bartman]

I also voted 'maybe'.

I want to read the rules, and then get a look at the product. I am intrigued in any case.

[wargamer]

I just wonder how the designers are going to get around the fact that, except for a brief period around the American Revolution (thank god :) ), Britain had the only effective deep-water navy on the planet -- the rest were poorly-led and/or poorly-equipped. In fact, the last halfway-decent opponent the Royal Navy faced was back in the 1600s, during the Anglo-Dutch Wars.

No problem, England ruled the seas true, but that was strategic, they lost battles aplenty on ship on ship combats and merchant losses. Lots of scenarios that do not involve whole english fleets... I do wonder how they will do the scenario of the cavalry taking the frigates...

:)

[wargamer]

hmm cant make port, acts like a modern LA class sub in PotC.... but Immelmann? nope.


Ever heard of the Flying Dutchman, Al?


;)

[David Manley]

No problem, England ruled the seas true, but that was strategic, they lost battles aplenty on ship on ship combats and merchant losses.

Indeed. frigate actions is where this system is likely to excel, so you balance up the scenarios (if you want) using numbers, crew quality and the relative size of the ships. RN frigates were often smaller and more ligthly armed than their opponents (12pdr guns versus 18 or even 24pdrs, 28-36 guns as opposed 32-44, etc.). That is of course a sweeping generalisation, as there were quite a few larger British frigates and razees, and many captured enemy ships that were bought in to the service (or even where the lines were taken and the design copied)


Lots of scenarios that do not involve whole english fleets... I do wonder how they will do the scenario of the cavalry taking the frigates...

Saw this done at a wargames show many years ago (Colours?) in 15mm - looked awesome!

[Marechallannes]

I just wonder how the designers are going to get around the fact that, except for a brief period around the American Revolution (thank god :) ), Britain had the only effective deep-water navy on the planet -- the rest were poorly-led and/or poorly-equipped.

Think, that's no problem.

The French build the best frigates at the end of the 18th century. ...and think on the formidable US frigates.

I'am shure it's not always the Royal Navy vs. the rest.;)

[Flying Officer Kyte]

hmmmm...Sails of Glory Seaport, Harbor, Anchorage?:confused:

new site opportunity Colonel?

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/images/icons/icon1.png
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Has Keith offered to be the Grand Admiral for a forum yet?! :D



I've laid the ground work to start a site for it. Don't expect any thing before the end of the year though. We move into the new house in two weeks, so lots of stuff to do before and after that. Then it's all the holidays over here.

This is a quote from Keith earlier on in the thread Tommy. It may answer your question.
Rob.

[csadn]

The French build the best frigates at the end of the 18th century. ...and think on the formidable US frigates.

And herein lies the salient flaw in most games (and gamers): Too much emphasis on tech; not enough on the wetware using it.

I mentioned the down-period the British faced during the American Revolution; it was not a problem with their ships, or even of the sailors. No, the problem lay at the highest levels -- in simple terms, the RN had become divided politically, between Whigs and Tories; and neither group was willing to work with the other. If the lead Admiral was of one faction, and a subordinate from another, the subordinate would willfully misinterpret or "not see" orders, in order to make the opposing party look bad (look up "Battle of Ushant" for details). The French were able to take advantage of this, in a limited manner (having been slapped around the seas for so long, they were still more interested in not-losing a battle than going for the win).

However, times change. Sometime later, the French Revolution breaks out. Being a feudal society, guess what all the really-effective French commanders who'd handed the British their afts [ :) ] in the AmRev fighting were? Yup -- aristos almost to a man. Guess where they ended up? Yup -- in exile, or the graveyard. All that valuable experience -- gone in one fell swoop. Instead, the FrRev/Napoleonic wars would be fought by admirals who were Politically Reliable, but about as competent to command a fleet as I am. Coupled to this: The British had sorted out their political issues, for the most part. End result: Britain holds uncontested control of the seas throughout the period.

At least with line-of-battle ships; I know folks at this point are about to invoke the "US Humphreys frigate" argument. Anticipated -- and deflected: Yes, the US frigates were going-away superior equipment to British frigates; this is what happens when a nation can't afford SoLs itself, and instead has to get create with the FFs it can afford. But none of that matters if the ships don't have crews who are ready, willing, and able to fight -- three words here: "_Shannon_ vs. _Chesapeake_" (ignoring for a moment _Chesapeake_ wasn't technically a "Humphreys frigate"; it had been overseen by a man who despised Humphreys, and had decided to adjust the design to his own taste -- see the book _Six Frigates_ for details -- the flaws in _Chesapeake_'s design were the least of its problems at the time of its capture).

In short: I'm more concerned with how _SoG_ is going to deal with the fact that, for example, if the crews of the British and Combined Fleet ships at Trafalgar has been swapped (putting the Brits on the CF ships, and vice versa), the British would still have handed the CF a thoroughgoing Kicking-Of-Afts.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

And herein lies the salient flaw in most games (and gamers): Too much emphasis on tech; not enough on the wetware using it.

I mentioned the down-period the British faced during the American Revolution; it was not a problem with their ships, or even of the sailors. No, the problem lay at the highest levels -- in simple terms, the RN had become divided politically, between Whigs and Tories; and neither group was willing to work with the other. If the lead Admiral was of one faction, and a subordinate from another, the subordinate would willfully misinterpret or "not see" orders, in order to make the opposing party look bad (look up "Battle of Ushant" for details). The French were able to take advantage of this, in a limited manner (having been slapped around the seas for so long, they were still more interested in not-losing a battle than going for the win).

However, times change. Sometime later, the French Revolution breaks out. Being a feudal society, guess what all the really-effective French commanders who'd handed the British their afts [ :) ] in the AmRev fighting were? Yup -- aristos almost to a man. Guess where they ended up? Yup -- in exile, or the graveyard. All that valuable experience -- gone in one fell swoop. Instead, the FrRev/Napoleonic wars would be fought by admirals who were Politically Reliable, but about as competent to command a fleet as I am. Coupled to this: The British had sorted out their political issues, for the most part. End result: Britain holds uncontested control of the seas throughout the period.

At least with line-of-battle ships; I know folks at this point are about to invoke the "US Humphreys frigate" argument. Anticipated -- and deflected: Yes, the US frigates were going-away superior equipment to British frigates; this is what happens when a nation can't afford SoLs itself, and instead has to get create with the FFs it can afford. But none of that matters if the ships don't have crews who are ready, willing, and able to fight -- three words here: "_Shannon_ vs. _Chesapeake_" (ignoring for a moment _Chesapeake_ wasn't technically a "Humphreys frigate"; it had been overseen by a man who despised Humphreys, and had decided to adjust the design to his own taste -- see the book _Six Frigates_ for details -- the flaws in _Chesapeake_'s design were the least of its problems at the time of its capture).

In short: I'm more concerned with how _SoG_ is going to deal with the fact that, for example, if the crews of the British and Combined Fleet ships at Trafalgar has been swapped (putting the Brits on the CF ships, and vice versa), the British would still have handed the CF a thoroughgoing Kicking-Of-Afts.

Guess that just about sums it up then Chris.
Rob.

[Anav]

And herein lies the salient flaw in most games (and gamers): In short: I'm more concerned with how _SoG_ is going to deal with the fact that, for example, if the crews of the British and Combined Fleet ships at Trafalgar has been swapped (putting the Brits on the CF ships, and vice versa), the British would still have handed the CF a thoroughgoing Kicking-Of-Afts.
In most games like this that I Have played crews are given a quality rating, Wooden ships and Iron Men comes to mind. Field of Glory does the same thing.

[Marechallannes]

Chris, you're absolutely right.

Revolutionary France had no money and men for a strong navy. They were too busy with the land battles on the frontiers and the uprising in the Vendee.

Many ships rested in the harbours without crew and repairs for years. Most men were fighting in land battels.






But I think, that's not an obstacle for the upcoming game.

[Ed2]

France's navy spent most of their time in port (even in peacetime).
England's navy spent most of their time at sea.
Who do you think would win in a heads up battle?

So I do hope SoG will incorporate a crew quality rating.

Time for some naval icons?

[Anav]

Part of the fun (IMO) of wargamming is exploring the what its...
What if France or Spain had a Nelson?
What if they had invested in their sailors?
History is full of single moment turning points.
I cant wait to get this game.

[Anav]

Part of the fun (IMO) of wargamming is exploring the what its...
What if France or Spain had a Nelson?
What if they had invested in their sailors?
History is full of single moment turning points.
I cant wait to get this game.

Ooops what IFs...not sure what a "what its" is....

[David Manley]

One of the joys of this new venture is the fact that there will be a high degree of interchangeability of ship models between countries. Buying in a captured ship to your own navy's service was a reguar feature of the time, especially for frigates (not so much for SoLs, although it did happen, HMS Ville de Paris being a good example) so it should be a case of merely swapping some ensigns (flags, not young officers :) ) around to give you more scope for models. No need for long hunts for "captured" repaints, or agonising over whether a model opportunity is going to be wasted on a Kissenberth Camel :)

[georgerutherfor]

I voted maybe on this one. Big Aubrey/Maturin fan here, hoping for good balance of accuracy/playability, with some optional rules for those wanting even more accuracy. As others have said, wind needs to be included, and crew quality also important. If those things are done, this will be a definite purchase for me.

Probably recommending books to people who have them all already, but for some interesting discussion on the quality of varying nation's frigates, check out Robert Gardiner's series of books on the subject. Some are out of print, but Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars is currently in print and the others can be found. His theory is that, contrary to what I'd assumed from the opinions of the characters in O'Brian's wonderful books, British designed and made frigates were much more suitable for Royal Navy needs than captured ships tended to be. Be prepared for some heavy details and discussion of things beyond how fast the ships can go (like amount of storage for a long voyage, a necessity for a world-wide navy, as well as strength of construction), but it is interesting how national approaches to naval strategy affect design philosophy in a given country. Not that I expect a tactical game to take all those matters into account, but hopefully scenario designers may find some innovative ways to account for such things.

Doug

[Javikurt]

I´m spanish and I´ll enjoy commanding spanish ships like the greatest "Santísima Trinidad" the biggest ship of those years. And remember the superiority of Spanish "Armada" by hundreds of years wich was called "The Invencible Armada".
Near to conquer Great Britain, but destroyed in last moment by elements, storm weather.....

[David Manley]

it is interesting how national approaches to naval strategy affect design philosophy in a given country

It is the forgotten factor when armchair experts compare ships (or indeed any weapon system). For example, German battleships in WW1 were "clearly superior" to their British counterparts, because of better subdivision, thicker armour, etc. Which ignores the fact that thr British ships were designed for sustained worldwide operations as well as fighting over afew days in the North Sea (and to be honest some of the "truths" known about the superiority of the German designs is myth anyway). Another good example are the Russian Baltic battleships of WW1. Not a patch on their German opponents - until you look at them in the context of the coastal defence system within which they played a part. Comparing simple stats is fine as far as it goes, but to do it honestly you need to put them in context. That is one reason why I like campaign wargaming - it gives you an opportunity to put that context in place.

[csadn]

What if France or Spain had a Nelson?

They did, actually -- the problem, as noted, was: They were all aristos, so most of them got the chop (figuratively, or literally).

At the time of Trafalgar, the best CF admirals (at least so far as I've been able to research) were:

France: Victor Lucas, commanding _Redoutable_ (whose snipers killed Nelson, no less)

Spain: Cosme Churruca, commanding _San Juan Nepomuceno_

Most of the rest were, as noted, chosen for political reliability over command ability -- and it showed. Lucas and Churruca were outspoken, which did not endear them to their respective political masters.

There were, of course, other factors; but respected commanders might have cleared away some of the other issues faced (Mr. Manley does bring up the point that different navies were designed for different purposes -- for ex., the infamous US "heavy frigates" came from the simple fact the US at that point couldn't afford ships-of-the-line, so the frigates were designed with SoL-grade "armor belts", plus more and heavier cannon).

[Snowy]

Having just run a scenario at the Hurricon convention using WS&IM, it was very evident this period is alive and well, looking for a good play system to take over from WS&IM.

I have a large collection of the 1/1200 scale ships and the entire Trafalgar fleets in 1/2400. I can tell you now, the decision to use 1/1200 was brilliant, as time and again I hear that while it is a space saver, the detail of the 1/1200 is missed in the smaller ships.

I am going to be a poor man soon. Darn you Andrea! ;)

[David Manley]

Having just run a scenario at the Hurricon convention using WS&IM, it was very evident this period is alive and well, looking for a good play system to take over from WS&IM.


To be fair, there are many good systems out there already which have strong followings. I see SOG-N filling the "ab initio" and "pick-up" game slot, possibly encouraging players to go on to more complex systems if the mood takes them. I mostly play "Form Line of Battle" and I'm working on a fast play fleet action set as well, but I'll most likely play SOG-N for fun, and with the kids (using a historical variant of "Man o War" for those kinds of games at the moment. WSIM has beem mentioned many times but worth remembering that its a board game rather than a true minis game.

[Ed2]

[QUOTE WSIM has beem mentioned many times but worth remembering that its a board game rather than a true minis game.[/QUOTE]

I played miniature WS&IM way over 50 times and never thought of it as a board game any more than I would think of WoW/WoG as a board game. The miniatures are played on a table, not a board.

[David Manley]

LOL, OK, fair enough. I suppose I've played "Close Action" (the developed version of WSIM by Mark Campbell) a handful of times with miniatures and a few dozen players (one ship per player with Mr. Campbell refereeing - a rather dazzling wargaming experience). I've never played WSIM with minis though, always as a board game (the board and counters being something of a giveaway). I guess I could try with my 1/2400 minis collection, they ought to fit in ther hexes. We played it regualrly at uni many years ago, that and Flight Leader - getting kind of back on topic as far as air wargaming is concerned :)

[Timmo UK]

A big yes from me. Ever since WoW first came out there has been discussion of how suitable the core system would be for an age of sail game. I still play and enjoy WS&IM so if nothing else I will buy the minis to use with that rule system, though of course the SOG rules will be interesting to see. Assuming the minis are of a high quality and reasonable price ie about £10 for a Ship of the line, I'm in for an expensive time. I had intended to buy some Langton kits but I doubt I'll bother now. In fact for me these minis couldn't come soon enough.

However, I do hope there is sound logic behind the first releases. For example, for fleet actions you really need 74 gun 3rd rates in numbers plus a few others eg the odd 100+, 98s, 90, 80 and 64s. So I hope we see the main classes of British, Spanish and French 74's covered in the first releases. England expects that Victory will be one of the first releases. I hope we don't get an odd jumble of classes and minor nations so we can hope to build historical fleets. Of course it'll be great to see the frigates, brigs, merchantmen and sloops etc as well. If the models are nice and I have the funds I'll be into this in a very big way, perhaps even more so than my WW1 planes and I may even sell some to fund the navy.

We've played WS&IM both as a board game and with miniatures on a hex cloth. Both are fun but it looks great with models.

[Snowy]

I guess my age is showing. When I started out gaming, WS&IM was the bestest with the mostest. It was entry level as you didn't need anything else to play, as it had the board game. Being a model lover one of the first things I did was convert a bunch of Airfix Victory and Shannon models to create my fleets. Though the actions were very small, the visual was striking. I have loved it ever since.

I am glad David brought up the fact that there are many fine game systems out there. We are lucky to have so many options these days.

I will always be a fan of WS&IM though, and I think I will feel the same about SOG. Can't wait.

[Shiraz68]

I, for one, and looking forward to seeing the game once it is in the shops. My own preference would be for fleet actions rather than ship Vs Ship - anything that allows either would be fantastic. Once I have seen what all the hype is about I will decide whether or not I will buy.

Amongst my ever increasing pile of lead I have a number of unmade/unpainted 1/1200 ships from GHQ, NavWar & Langtons waiting their turn on the workbench. There are also a number of rule-sets waiting for play testing so comments earlier in the thread about peoples preferences have been duly noted.

[David Manley]

I'm thinking that the initial releases will be more aimed at frigate actions than fleet actions. I'm intrigued to see how the system will manage fleet actions; I have a mental image of trying to play WoW and controlling 20-30 aircraft at the same time - not easy at all! So perhaps a fleet action would be managed by using manoeuvre cards at the squadron level? That would work well, and would encourage players to manoeuvre their fleets as their historical forebears would have done.

[Timmo UK]

I'm thinking that the initial releases will be more aimed at frigate actions than fleet actions. I'm intrigued to see how the system will manage fleet actions; I have a mental image of trying to play WoW and controlling 20-30 aircraft at the same time - not easy at all! So perhaps a fleet action would be managed by using manoeuvre cards at the squadron level? That would work well, and would encourage players to manoeuvre their fleets as their historical forebears would have done.

Funny, I thought the opposite and felt it would be the fleet actions they would go for with the initial release as pretty much everyone has heard of Nelson and the Battle of Trafalgar in the way that everybody has heard of the Red Baron. I imagine Victory and Constitution being the iconic models of the Series, like the Red Baron is but the big colourful Spanish first rate ships being the 'stars'. I wonder if the first release for the Brits might focus on Nelson's ships eg, Victory 100, Captain 74, Agamemnon 64 etc.

Then again the US is a big market so Constitution is an important model. It might be that we get three frigates, three 64's three 74's and three first rate 100+ to start off. Either way I can't wait to see the images of the first decorated examples and hope they use clear bases but slimmer than those used for WoG.

[Oberst Hajj]

We Know that the Victory will not be one of the very first releases.

[Timmo UK]

We Know that the Victory will not be one of the very first releases.


Ah I can't have read the press release info very well! Anyway that's got me really interested to see which way they take this game.

[greenalfonzo]

Considering the designers, they'll probably follow the WOW release sequence. I'm guessing they'll start with a starter set featuring frigates with rules for ship to ship combat, and follow that with later box sets featuring larger ships and additional rules for fleet and other actions.

[David Manley]

Here's my latest thoughts. The starter set will cover frigate actions. Why do I think this?

1) We know that the starter set will comprise 4 models and rules, cards etc. Two-on-two ship of the line actions are as rare as hen's teeth, and not particularly interesting. Frigate actions are way, way more exciting

2) The starter set will not technically cover the Napoleonic Wars. Next year is 2012, the 200th anniversary of the outbreak of War of 1812. What better way to launch a naval minis game than by tying in with the bicentenary? If that is the case then I'd expect the models to be HMS Shannon, USS Chesapeake, USS Constitution and HMS Guerriere . This ticks a lot of boxes for a launch product - fun setting, historical example, US features heavily = will sell like hot cakes.

To be honest, if Ares aren't doing this then someone in marketing needs to be shot!

[Timmo UK]

Here's my latest thoughts. The starter set will cover frigate actions. Why do I think this?

1) We know that the starter set will comprise 4 models and rules, cards etc. Two-on-two ship of the line actions are as rare as hen's teeth, and not particularly interesting. Frigate actions are way, way more exciting

2) The starter set will not technically cover the Napoleonic Wars. Next year is 2012, the 200th anniversary of the outbreak of War of 1812. What better way to launch a naval minis game than by tying in with the bicentenary? If that is the case then I'd expect the models to be HMS Shannon, USS Chesapeake, USS Constitution and HMS Guerriere . This ticks a lot of boxes for a launch product - fun setting, historical example, US features heavily = will sell like hot cakes.

To be honest, if Ares aren't doing this then someone in marketing needs to be shot!

I'd buy that as a boxed set. Your reasoning makes sense to me.

[Ed2]

aren't[/I] doing this then someone in marketing needs to be shot!

Save your shooting for the game. I'm just glad they're producing SoW. :thankyou:

[greenalfonzo]

Some people who read about a game set in the Napoleonic era might expect something related to Napoleon in the first set....so what are the chances the first set features a frigate from each of the England, France, Spain, and the U.S.? Or do you really think they'll either wait for a second or third box before getting around to do France and Spain? Or maybe just release French and Spanish frigates in single ship packaging?

[David Manley]

Or do you really think they'll either wait for a second or third box before getting around to do France and Spain?

No, probably amongst the first release of individual ships (assuming my theory is correct :) )

[Flying Officer Kyte]

The latest news from Ares is that the game will be launched in the Summer. If the fever pitch that it has already generated on this forum is anything to go by, they will be sold out in pre orders whatever ships they produce. I am going to regret getting rid of most of my books on Nelson's Navy.
Rob.

[Timmo UK]

So where do they go after frigates? Down to brigs, sloops, schooners, gunboats and merchantmen? Or jump up to the 74's which are the ones which might just be the biggest seller.

[David Manley]

So where do they go after frigates? Down to brigs, sloops, schooners, gunboats and merchantmen? Or jump up to the 74's which are the ones which might just be the biggest seller.

Depends on how the system works. |If it copes well with fleet actions then I think you answered your own question. Merchies would be worth doing early though - convoy actions etc.

[Boney10]

Surely a pre-painted 64 or 70+ SOL will be quite an expensive model to be put into a box set, Im putting in context of the bombers/balloons here.
The frigate actions will surely be the starter sets with four ships in without breaking the bank balances. I am looking forward to this set but am wondering what the cost will be for the bigger ships. Dave has already mentioned actions between 1 or 2 SOL were rare so for a reasonable action we are looking at say 3 to 6 a side which could be expensive

[CappyTom]

I hope they have all sizes. From Sloops, Flutes, Frigates, Galleons and Man-O-War as well.:thumbsup:

Dog gone it I see my money leaving me already.:(

:pint:Rum for my men...
Tom

[greenalfonzo]

Could someone post up some pics of 1200 scale ships to show us the relative size and detail of what we will possibly be getting? Something with some scale in the pic, like a ruler, a coffee mug, or a WOW plane!

[Tommy Z]

I hope they have all sizes. From Sloops, Flutes, Frigates, Galleons and Man-O-War as well.:thumbsup:

Dog gone it I see my money leaving me already.:(

:pint:Rum for my men...
Tom

I'm gonna need a second job....hand me one of those mugs o' grog will ye' :pint:

[Ed2]

Could someone post up some pics of 1200 scale ships to show us the relative size and detail of what we will possibly be getting? Something with some scale in the pic, like a ruler, a coffee mug, or a WOW plane!

Russian Napoleonic, 100 gun Rotislav - 74 gun Aleksandr Nevski - 66 gun Rodislav
Base of the 100 gun is 40mm x 84mm
Base of the 74 & 66 gun is 40mm x 74mm

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa460/Ed_May2/100_0631.jpg

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa460/Ed_May2/100_0630-1.jpg

[David Manley]

How about these for a comparison? From right to left a 100, 74, 32 and two unrated vessels in shot with a Nieuport for scale:

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=24749&d=1318478868

Same models, just moved around abit:

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=24747&d=1318478863

The ships are all 1/1200 models from Rod Langton

[greenalfonzo]

Thank you, Ed and David!

Those are very helpful. I'm thinking that they'll be priced in the "2 seater" range per individual ship.

Beautiful ships guys, I will not be able to pass them up if SOG's ships are in this class of finish! I can already imagine these sailing around my table.

[Oberst Hajj]

Thanks Dave, that really helps get a perspective on these ships.

One thing to keep in mind about the boxed sets. While 1-2 SoL engagements were rare in real life, that might be overlooked for starting a new game out. Most players are going to want SoL, so having 4 of those in the start box to "jump start" your fleet, might not be a bad idea for them business wise.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

I'm a Frigate action man myself. So Frigate for each side and a couple of merchantmen to escort would be my idea of a good game. you could also do cutting out actions, landings, and scouting with them.
Rob.

[Timmo UK]

Going back to WS&IM for a moment although we played all the fleet games, Nile, Trafalgar, etc they were big games that took a weekend due to all the tedious order writing which was one of the weak points in the system, the other being the poor boarding rules, however the rules excelled at small ship actions.

I have a Avalon Hill General magazine with a load of Richard Bolitho scenarios based on the books with the same character and these had all types of cutting out actions, frigates v's frigates etc and these provided for many, many enjoyable fast paced games.

Although I love the look of the SOL the frigate games are far more accessible from a price perspective. I'm not sure why a SOL would be any more expensive to produce than a frigate. Material cost on something so small is minimal and the rigging is essentially the same, as is the design of the ship, ie three masts etc. The only thing I could see effecting price is the need for a larger tooling and bigger packing and thus increased distribution costs. I doubt a WoG 2 seater costs more than a few pence/cents more than a scout to produce but the marketing people set a price point…

I am interested to see how and if they handle rigging and masts. Somebody mentioned plug in/out masts to show damage which is a nice idea but any rigging would prevent this. However, I can't help but feel that sailing vessels need at least a hint of rigging or else they can look very bare and unfinished. Equally though I've seen so many models lost under far too much rigging that's way overscale.

[Oberst Hajj]

I've never played any of the naval games out there and I know very little about naval history, but... why do you have to play entire fleet battles/actions if you use SOL? Could a few SOL per side not indicated a smaller section of a much broader engagement?

[Jager]

From what I remember from that wargaming phase (my copy of WSIM is in the attic, on the top shelf), it was mostly a doctrine thing, with a little performance added. Basically, SOL were rather slower, and less weldy than frigate, so if they operated solo or in pairs, they were not as effective as a line of them, and a well handled frigate could concevably manuver to repeatedly rack fire down the bows or sterns of the SOL, avoiding the broadsides themselves. This plus the doctrine that the line must not be broken (note that Nelson violated this with great sucess) and their hugh expense meant that practically speaking, they were almost always used aginst other SOLs; occationally for convoy escort. I think that the British blockade squadrons during the Naponeanic wars were 4-8 SOLs, with escorts.
The French weren't as hung up on this, and had better designed ships (in general), but were less able to operste, due to the blockades. You will find 1-1 ans 2-2 SOL combats in history, but their rare.
Karl

[Timmo UK]

You could fight small games of 4 – 6 SOL against each other. We often did and they were good fun games but it never really felt as if the game captured the real essence of fleet actions of the period.

The Nile with 12 - 14 SOL a side was another matter and a cracking scenario.

[georgerutherfor]

For those fans of Aubrey-Maturin, at the end of Master and Commander there is a recounting of two smaller SOL fights, each with only 4-6 SOL a side (going off of memory here), that occurred in real life. Cracking fights they were too. Not exactly numerous as one would say, but then again large fleet on fleet actions didn't happen every day either. I would love the for the rules to include some way to do cutting out expeditions, those to me seem like a great deal of fun, as well as also being fairly common with smaller rated and unrated ships.

Doug

[David Manley]

For those fans of Aubrey-Maturin, at the end of Master and Commander there is a recounting of two smaller SOL fights, each with only 4-6 SOL a side (going off of memory here), that occurred in real life.

IIRC these (or at least one of these - I admit I've not got as far through Patrick O'Brien's books by now as I should have done) were based on the battles in and around Algeceiras in 1801. Cracking battles, and about the smallest decent SoL battles you can find. I've used them as the basis for a few demonstration and participation games at shows over the years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Algeciras_Bay

[David Manley]

From what I remember from that wargaming phase (my copy of WSIM is in the attic, on the top shelf), it was mostly a doctrine thing, with a little performance added. Basically, SOL were rather slower, and less weldy than frigate, so if they operated solo or in pairs, they were not as effective as a line of them, and a well handled frigate could concevably manuver to repeatedly rack fire down the bows or sterns of the SOL, avoiding the broadsides themselves.

Thats not right. The line of battle evolved for several reasons, but primarily:

a) command & control - the "mob" approach to naval tactics in the early part of the Dutch wars game admirals almost no control over their fleets; linear deployments were far easier to control)

b) maximising firepower - operating in line minimised the opportunity for friendly ships to block the line of fire. There was no advanced fire control in the age of sail (after the first broadside the din of battle meant this was not possible on a crowded gun deck) and in general the closest atrget would be engaged, so if a friendly vessel was closer than an enemy the options were to hold fire, or fire on a friend;

c) protecting the bows and stern - but protection against other ships of the line, rather than frigates. 5th and 6th rates were not a real threat for ships of the line unless they were at a serious disadvantage (e.g. dismasted, grounded or limited by severe weather such as Pellew's action against the Droits de l'Homme, where 4 frigates eventually took down a French 74 which coiuldn't use its lower gun decks due to the high sea state). In fact, there were often "gentlemen's agreements" in fleet actions that SoLs would not fire on frigates as long as the small fry left the bigger ships alone. In one action (I forget which) a frigate captain decided to "have a go" and was rewarded for his gutsy move with a broadside from the SoL he had fired at, and that broadside completely dismasted the frigate and shattered the hull. Yes, frigates were often (but not always) more handy than SoLs, but not to the point where they had any kind of advantage over them.



This plus the doctrine that the line must not be broken (note that Nelson violated this with great sucess)

Nelson violated this because he KNEW that his ships and crews outclassed the enemy. Had he been fighting the French navy from several years previously he would never have attempted the manoeuvres he did. Likewise Duncan at Kemperduin. Against an enemy of comparable overall fighting quality the line should be able to shoot an oncoming fleet into submission before the oncming ships reach the line.

[georgerutherfor]

David,

You're entirely right about the Battle of Algeciras - I could not remember the name of it.

Doug

[BobP]

Looks like something else to spend money on. Have to pull out my Great Naval Battles book to get some battles together.

[Zakopious]

Will the sails of Glory ships be the same size as the Pirates of the Spanish Main ships ?

See: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/10653/pirates-of-the-spanish-main

[Walt Powell]

I am looking forward to this game, despite some of my earlier pessimistic comments about the possible quality of the ship minis. I'm truly hoping that they'll be awesome! I have been researching a bit on the side, as I'm sure others have. I only have a minute background in WS&IM, but the genre does intrigue me. In fact, I have been reading my Alexander Kent (Richard Bolitho) novels again...and even buying more. Horatio Hornblower has become a daily staple again as well; both in book and A&E movie form. I'm even rereading everything in my copy of WS&IM once again! lol

I suspect that many of us will soon be seeking out other models on the market to augment the Ares minis...and the name Langton will become as familiar as Reviereso, Shapeways or Skytrex. His work looks stunning! But it appears from his site that his product is only available through two stateside dealers (and just a few European and British Isles dealers). Of those in the USA, one doesn't appear to have any stock any longer, but the other (Waterloo Minis) seems to have a great pipeline to Mr. Langton and his ships. Until I looked at Langton's site I never realized how many different sail settings there were...or how they might convey realism to the game (perhaps even more than gimbels, mapscapes or altitude pegs do to our beloved WOG). I'm hoping that we'll be able to have a variety of sail settings available from Ares. Any word on that?

Additionally, Waterloo Minis offers painted and assembled ships (at about $50.00 a pop); they do the painting. I'm not sure if Langton offers painted and assembled pieces of his work. But, for us Yanks, attempting to buy directly from Langton may result in a high cost for kits alone once postage is figured in. lol Which brings to mind another question for our British Isles friends: does anyone know if Mr. Langton offers painted and assembled versions of his works to the public? In summation, all I can add is that this is certainly an exciting time for those of us with an interest in SOG. :) ----Walt

[Timmo UK]

I am looking forward to this game, despite some of my earlier pessimistic comments about the possible quality of the ship minis. I'm truly hoping that they'll be awesome! I have been researching a bit on the side, as I'm sure others have. I only have a minute background in WS&IM, but the genre does intrigue me. In fact, I have been reading my Alexander Kent (Richard Bolitho) novels again...and even buying more. Horatio Hornblower has become a daily staple again as well; both in book and A&E movie form. I'm even rereading everything in my copy of WS&IM once again! lol

I suspect that many of us will soon be seeking out other models on the market to augment the Ares minis...and the name Langton will become as familiar as Reviereso, Shapeways or Skytrex. His work looks stunning! But it appears from his site that his product is only available through two stateside dealers (and just a few European and British Isles dealers). Of those in the USA, one doesn't appear to have any stock any longer, but the other (Waterloo Minis) seems to have a great pipeline to Mr. Langton and his ships. Until I looked at Langton's site I never realized how many different sail settings there were...or how they might convey realism to the game (perhaps even more than gimbels, mapscapes or altitude pegs do to our beloved WOG). I'm hoping that we'll be able to have a variety of sail settings available from Ares. Any word on that?

Additionally, Waterloo Minis offers painted and assembled ships (at about $50.00 a pop); they do the painting. I'm not sure if Langton offers painted and assembled pieces of his work. But, for us Yanks, attempting to buy directly from Langton may result in a high cost for kits alone once postage is figured in. lol Which brings to mind another question for our British Isles friends: does anyone know if Mr. Langton offers painted and assembled versions of his works to the public? In summation, all I can add is that this is certainly an exciting time for those of us with an interest in SOG. :) ----Walt

Langton used to offer beautiful ready assembled, painted and rigged models. His wife did the painting. They cost upwards of £90 each about 4 years ago. Obviously the bigger the ship and the more complex the rigging option selected the more expensive they got. Langton no longer offer this service. Realistic Modelling do offer similar and their work is very nice but not quite in the class of Langton's own offering. However, you are looking at £100 plus per ship, which is way out of my reach and why I'm so excited about SOG and hope the quality of the models is good enough for gaming. I built and rigged two 1/1200 3 rate vessels and to be honest I feel they are too precious to use for gaming!

[Walt Powell]

Langton used to offer beautiful ready assembled, painted and rigged models. His wife did the painting. They cost upwards of £90 each about 4 years ago. Obviously the bigger the ship and the more complex the rigging option selected the more expensive they got. Langton no longer offer this service. Realistic Modelling do offer similar and their work is very nice but not quite in the class of Langton's own offering. However, you are looking at £100 plus per ship, which is way out of my reach and why I'm so excited about SOG and hope the quality of the models is good enough for gaming. I built and rigged two 1/1200 3 rate vessels and to be honest I feel they are too precious to use for gaming!

Good info...thanks Tim! Suddenly the painted Waterloo Minis don't seem so expensive (at $50.00 US; or 70.05 Pds....or 69.35 Euro). Langton's kit prices sound pretty affordable (about $6-9 a ship, plus $7-8 for each mast set...the ships and masts are purchased separately). One might even be tempted to purchase several diffeent mast settings. I'm hopeful that this will be the case with the SOG ships as well. I completely understand why you wouldn't want to play with the 3 vessels you built, Tim!

[CappyTom]

Will the sails of Glory ships be the same size as the Pirates of the Spanish Main ships ?

See: http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/10653/pirates-of-the-spanish-main

I have a ton of those ships. Love the game and made house rules as to role-playing. We even had newspapers of each nation. They would tell of their great fleets victories.

Tom

[Timmo UK]

Good info...thanks Tim! Suddenly the painted Waterloo Minis don't seem so expensive (at $50.00 US; or 70.05 Pds....or 69.35 Euro). Langton's kit prices sound pretty affordable (about $6-9 a ship, plus $7-8 for each mast set...the ships and masts are purchased separately). One might even be tempted to purchase several diffeent mast settings. I'm hopeful that this will be the case with the SOG ships as well. I completely understand why you wouldn't want to play with the 3 vessels you built, Tim!

Walt

If I understand you correctly, I should add:

Langton offer a number of sail settings that be further enhanced with other spares and bits they do however, I don't really feel as if the design of the kits allows for different settings to be plugged into one hull model. The kits are designed to be glued together with one sail setting that is permanent.

[DaveZee]

I used to love the Pirates game by Wizkids that used card stock boats. I cannot wait for this game. :)

[va beach ace]

waterloo minis sell the langton ships and I belive they are out of richmond virginia, if not there they are in virginia. I have several of there models and yes the sails are glued in and can not be changed. the price has gone up just a little, but hasn't everything? they also sale a gamming system for the ships I do have the rules but never have played them. Signal Close Action I think is the name of the game. they sale painting guides and all of that for the models and the people there are really good to work with. they also sale some pre-painted and rigged.
bob

[David Manley]

I don't really feel as if the design of the kits allows for different settings to be plugged into one hull model.

Definitely not. They should be permanently fixed.

[Walt Powell]

waterloo minis sell the langton ships and I belive they are out of richmond virginia, if not there they are in virginia. I have several of there models and yes the sails are glued in and can not be changed. the price has gone up just a little, but hasn't everything? they also sale a gamming system for the ships I do have the rules but never have played them. Signal Close Action I think is the name of the game. they sale painting guides and all of that for the models and the people there are really good to work with. they also sale some pre-painted and rigged.
bob

Right on all counts, Bob. The changeable sails was simply a pipe dream. I'm good with fixed sails. As I thought about it further, it did seem that changing sails several times during a game could prove cumbersome, I suppose. ---walt

[Walt Powell]

Hornblower, Bolitho......Aubrey?

I'm familiar with Kent's and Forrester's works. But I gathered from the movie with Russell Crowe that "Master and Commander, the Far Side of the World" was just one installment in a series. Is "Lucky" jack Aubrey in fact the center character in another set of nautical works? If so, who's the author? I'd like to add those to my reading. ---Walt

[Walt Powell]

Nautical terms that affected the english language.

Here's the first of four installments covering 21 (to name a few) nautical terms that have slipped into the english language in various forms:

1.) Burning your boats: To leave no alternative; used since Roman times when destroying troop transport ships gave recently landed soldiers no chioce but to stay and fight.
2.) by and large: Describing both good and bad sailing conditions: bad headwinds required sailing "by" the wind; favorable wind allowed use of the "large" sails, resulting in greater speed.
3.) chew the fat: To talk endlessly; from the fact that shipboard preservatives hardened meat, forcing sailors to chew it thoroughly.
4.) chock-a-block: Full to capacity; from the condition of two nautical pulleys, or "blocks" that are "chocked", or pulled as tight as possible.
5.) chowder: A seafood soup; from the French chaudiere, or cauldron.
6.) The coast is clear: Safe to proceed; applied to vessels having "cleared" the hazards of a dangerous passage.

More fun later! ;) ---Walt

[Ed2]

[QUOTE Is "Lucky" jack Aubrey in fact the center character in another set of nautical works? If so, who's the author? I'd like to add those to my reading. ---Walt[/QUOTE]

Yes, and the Author is Patrick O'Brian.

[gully_raker]

Hornblower, Bolitho......Aubrey?

I'm familiar with Kent's and Forrester's works. But I gathered from the movie with Russell Crowe that "Master and Commander, the Far Side of the World" was just one installment in a series. Is "Lucky" jack Aubrey in fact the center character in another set of nautical works? If so, who's the author? I'd like to add those to my reading. ---Walt

:thumbsup: Yes the Movie was from one of the series written by Patrick O'Brien & considered to be one of the most authentic Napolionic Era series.:)

[csadn]

The truly-relevant question is: Who's going to be first to combine _WoG_ and _SoG_ in a game?

Yes, yes -- I know they're different eras; but when has *that* ever stopped anyone? :)

[Boney10]

:thumbsup: Yes the Movie was from one of the series written by Patrick O'Brien & considered to be one of the most authentic Napolionic Era series.:)

I have not read the books, but was the book Master and Commander not set during the war of 1812 and featured an American Frigate instead of a French one ?

[Gaz67]

Every wargamer I've spoken to in the last few weeks have expressed a huge interest in "Sails", the one question that they all ask is "How much will the ships cost??"
If they are priced reasonably then this has the potential to be huge.

[georgerutherfor]

I have not read the books, but was the book Master and Commander not set during the war of 1812 and featured an American Frigate instead of a French one ?

Boney10, to me the movie plot is mainly from a later book in the series, "The Far Side of the World," in which the opponent is I believe an American frigate and not a Frenchman. I guess they thought it would be tougher for American audiences to identify with the British crew if the opponent was one of their own. Simpletons.

There are a number of plot points pulled from Master and Commander, the first book in the series, which is actually set right after the turn of the century in the Meditteranean, with Jack Aubrey having just been made a Master and Commander and commanding a brig, and where he meets Stephen Maturin. Lots of great small ship action, cutting out expeditions, all of it. I did not know if I could get into a series set in the British navy or not when I first started to read, but I now claim it as my favorite series. While I got into it for the ships, the series offers so much more. O'Brian was a master of period detail - it is simply astonishing the period nuances that come out, and the entire series to me comes across as a study in human character and behavior. Nothing that beats you over the head, mind you, but all of the people they meet seem to remind one in one way or another of people we come in contact with every day, showing that while the dates may change, people tend to stay the same.

Doug

[Boney10]

Hmmm THat being the case Doug think Ill have a go at them myself. The last Naval books I read were the CS forrester Hornblower series

[Ed2]

Speaking of Hornblower, has anyone watched the eight episode TV series Horatio Hornblower?

[Walt Powell]

Speaking of Hornblower, has anyone watched the eight episode TV series Horatio Hornblower?

Just purchased and watched Episodes 1& 2. Cost just $10.00 US through Barnes and Noble. Very well done. Can't wait to get the other 6.
'

[Zakopious]

Treasure Island is a good read about sailing, pirates, etc.

It can be read online for free here:

http://openlibrary.org/books/OL7041966M/Treasure_Island.

[Bigman]

hmm have come to this a bit late being tied up with lots of real world stuff but for what its worth I have had very little time to game of late ( my last post here was in Feb or March). I have still lots of WW2 plane I want to get plus I have to get a replacement famous aces set as I gave mine to a friend, and find time to play.
In summarry I don't have the time space or money for a new game let alone one that would be a completly new area for me to get involved in.
So whens it coming out? somebody put me down for one now! I'm already looking for a nice admirals hat!

Guess I'll never learn!

[Snowy]

Guess I will put my two cents in. I am guessing (at best) that for the first series they will look for Classes of ships that come in threes, such as some of the 74's. Another thought is that Constitution, Constellation and the United States were all very similar. I think the Shannon was of a class of Frigate that was popular. I am sure with a little research you could come up with the same thing for France, Spain and others. 4 ship types in 3 paint schemes. Sound familiar?
This will minimise multiple model developement and get ships out there quicker.

Just a thought....

[csadn]

Another thought is that Constitution, Constellation and the United States were all very similar.

They came from the same designer/builder, Joshua Humphreys -- however, the first two were 44-gun hulls, while the last was a 38 (before the obligatory upgunning US captains were so fond of...).

I think the Shannon was of a class of Frigate that was popular.[/QUOTE]

http://www.hms-trincomalee.co.uk/historic/leda/leda.htm -- _Leda_-class, copied from a captured French design.

[Ed2]

I hope they initially concentrate on British, French & Spanish SOL's of the Trafalgar era.
And I really hope they will find an economical way to add ship cards. :please:

[csadn]

I hope they initially concentrate on British, French & Spanish SOL's of the Trafalgar era.

They don't really have a choice -- none of the other navies of the period really factored into the conflict. IIRC, the Dutch Navy was absorbed by the French (with attendant consequences); the Scandinavians never really got involved in the fighting (and the one time they did -- well, look up "Battle of Copenhagen 1801"), the Russians were never anything more than a local power (if that), and the various Med nations were absorbed by either Britain or France. So, in that period, one is either British, or "Combined Fleet" (French and Spanish).

And you thought the WoW WW1 selections were limited....

[Ed2]

[QUOTE And you thought the WoW WW1 selections were limited....[/QUOTE]

With ship sizes and types ranging from the Agamemnon to the Santisima Trinidad, that should give me many hours of fun on the high seas. :thumbsup:

[wargamer]

They don't really have a choice -- none of the other navies of the period really factored into the conflict. IIRC, the Dutch Navy was absorbed by the French (with attendant consequences); the Scandinavians never really got involved in the fighting (and the one time they did -- well, look up "Battle of Copenhagen 1801"), the Russians were never anything more than a local power (if that), and the various Med nations were absorbed by either Britain or France. So, in that period, one is either British, or "Combined Fleet" (French and Spanish).

And you thought the WoW WW1 selections were limited....

And you always have the pirates of the med... the moorish problem, (u thot the muslims were just a modern problem - look up lapanto) the problem the Constitution and her sisters were designed to stomp on. btw, Constitution launched 1797, Battle of Trafalgar was 1805? Naval operations are where you find them... and small units will be cheaper than SoLs....

[Ed2]

And you always have the pirates of the med... the moorish pSoG are endlessroblem, (u thot the muslims were just a modern problem - look up lapanto) the problem the Constitution and her sisters were designed to stomp on. btw, Constitution launched 1797, Battle of Trafalgar was 1805? Naval operations are where you find them... and small units will be cheaper than SoLs....

I agree. The possibilities for SoG are endless.

[David Manley]

They don't really have a choice -- none of the other navies of the period really factored into the conflict. IIRC, the Dutch Navy was absorbed by the French (with attendant consequences); the Scandinavians never really got involved in the fighting (and the one time they did -- well, look up "Battle of Copenhagen 1801"), the Russians were never anything more than a local power (if that), and the various Med nations were absorbed by either Britain or France. So, in that period, one is either British, or "Combined Fleet" (French and Spanish).

Let me see, the RN, French and Spanish navies. Check. Now there was also the United States Navy and a little thing called the War of 1812.The Swedes and the Russians fought many fleet actions during the period, but also fought some amazing littoral actions in amongst the "archipelagos" of the Baltic, with some wierd and wonderful types of ships. The Dutch and Danish may have fought on the side of the French, but their fleets were generally distinct rather than being "absorbed", and they fought some interetsing actions against the British and others (Kamperduin, and Copenhagen being the most obvious). In the Med there were various navies belonging to the Italian republics (Venice and Naples primarily, the former having ships at the frigate battle of Lissa in 1811). And the Ottoman Empire had a sizeable fleet as well - plenty of potentyial for a Russian / Turkish dust up in the Black Sea or, if you are into solo actions (or are a masochist with a thing for the Ottomans), try refighting the battle of Navarinio (1821).

So there are plently of non anglo/spano/French opportunities and the bonus is that, with the exception of "rivet counters" (for which I admit I do have tendencies) a frigate is a frigate, and a 74 is a 74, so you can chop and change ships as you want between nations. And in any case, ships captured in battle were frequently put into service by their new owners, or (in the case of the RN, at least) copied and built in some numbers. The RN's "Leda" class for example was a copy of a French frigate, and if you are in or visiting the UK you can visit two examples, one in Dundee (HMS UNICORN) and one in Hartlepool (HMS TRINCOMALEE).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/HMS_Trincomalee.jpg

A piccie of Trincomalee that I took on my first visit - a very rainy day in November - and which I later posted on Wikipedia

[David Manley]

With ship sizes and types ranging from the Agamemnon to the Santisima Trinidad

Why stop at 64s as the smallest ship? Working at sloop/brig/gunboat level is just as much fun as playing with SoLs, perhaps even moreso!

[Gaz67]

BOMB KETCH!!!!

[Walt Powell]

Guess I will put my two cents in. I am guessing (at best) that for the first series they will look for Classes of ships that come in threes, such as some of the 74's. Another thought is that Constitution, Constellation and the United States were all very similar. I think the Shannon was of a class of Frigate that was popular. I am sure with a little research you could come up with the same thing for France, Spain and others. 4 ship types in 3 paint schemes. Sound familiar?
This will minimise multiple model developement and get ships out there quicker.

Just a thought....

I'm not even sure that it would be that important to put "names" on all the ships. Unlike WW1 aircraft, their wasn't that much individualism amongst classes of ship (at least nOT that you would notice at 1/1200th). They could concentrate on classes, allowing more to our imagination as far as how ships were "named" or used. This will also allow for "captured" ships to change flags.

[Walt Powell]

Let me see, the RN, French and Spanish navies. Check. Now there was also the United States Navy and a little thing called the War of 1812.The Swedes and the Russians fought many fleet actions during the period, but also fought some amazing littoral actions in amongst the "archipelagos" of the Baltic, with some wierd and wonderful types of ships. The Dutch and Danish may have fought on the side of the French, but their fleets were generally distinct rather than being "absorbed", and they fought some interetsing actions against the British and others (Kamperduin, and Copenhagen being the most obvious). In the Med there were various navies belonging to the Italian republics (Venice and Naples primarily, the former having ships at the frigate battle of Lissa in 1811). And the Ottoman Empire had a sizeable fleet as well - plenty of potentyial for a Russian / Turkish dust up in the Black Sea or, if you are into solo actions (or are a masochist with a thing for the Ottomans), try refighting the battle of Navarinio (1821).

So there are plently of non anglo/spano/French opportunities and the bonus is that, with the exception of "rivet counters" (for which I admit I do have tendencies) a frigate is a frigate, and a 74 is a 74, so you can chop and change ships as you want between nations. And in any case, ships captured in battle were frequently put into service by their new owners, or (in the case of the RN, at least) copied and built in some numbers. The RN's "Leda" class for example was a copy of a French frigate, and if you are in or visiting the UK you can visit two examples, one in Dundee (HMS UNICORN) and one in Hartlepool (HMS TRINCOMALEE).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/HMS_Trincomalee.jpg

A piccie of Trincomalee that I took on my first visit - a very rainy day in November - and which I later posted on Wikipedia

Interchangeable......what he said. :)

[csadn]

wargamer, and David Manley: Those are all nice selections -- but none of them fall under "Trafalgar-era ships-of-the-line", with the possible exception of Copenhagen.

This illustrates the problem _SoG_ is going to face: Do they go with the "known" battles, and have to fight for shelf space with every other age-of-sail game on the planet; or do they go with the lesser-known battles, and deal with the constant whining about how "no one is interested in the [fill-in-the-blank-minor-power]"? Never mind the game-balance issue -- notice how every battle is won by the British; who's going to want to play the French and Spanish, knowing he's going to get squashed?

[Ed2]

[QUOTE= notice how every battle is won by the British; who's going to want to play the French and Spanish, knowing he's going to get squashed?[/QUOTE]

But think of the Glory if you win. :medal::singin:

[Volant Gun]

I'm an airman through and through. :minis:

Ships just aren't my thing; but knowing me if watched a game I'd be hooked.

[wargamer]

But think of the Glory if you win. :medal::singin:

Aye, while the Bon Homme Richard sinks under you, you take the British Serapis and sail home in glory.....

[Walt Powell]

Also....I wonder how they'll portray "having the weatherguage" (the wind in your favor). In WWI planes often drifted over German lines due to the prevailing winds, but it didn't factor enough in individual combat to merit recognition in a clean and simple game like WOG. However, the wind was EXTREMELY important in the age of the sail and almost always decided the upper hand in ship-to-ship combat. I wonder how Andrea and Ares will portray this affect?

Will the ship minis come in an attitude reflecting "prepared for action"?

And will they consider "quality of crew"? On this point I'm guessing "no", since for WOG only the plane characteristics are reflected, not the skills of individual pilots. Endeavoring to portray the skills of a ship's hands may be too cumbersome if SOG is to keep to the code of "fast, easy and simple play". I'm excited to see how the developers addressed all these nautical issues. Based upon Andrea's interview in which he stated that historical matters were closely considered, I'm VERY hopeful!

[Snowy]

When I joined this site, I thought I knew a lot about WW1 air combat and aircraft. I found that I knew but a single digit percentage of what I though I knew.

Above all else, I am so looking forward to all the new tidbits I will learn about with this new era incoming.

Cheers!

[KiltedWolf]

As Rob said, I will give it a go as well -- should be fun, and give our group yet another outlet for slinging purple prose at one another!

I may have to come up with another handle for those forums; not sure how well my kilt will do on the deck of a ship!

Cheers!

[Gaz67]

Tis true, you don't want to scare the ladies, however the answer is simple, Trews. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trews )

[KiltedWolf]

Aye, trews would work -- but to be so confined in a bifurcated garment upon the open seas... sigh.

;)

Cheers!

[Gaz67]

The sacrifices we make....

(nice word by the way, bifurcated, I shall now attempt to include it in conversation)

[AlgyLacey]

As Rob said, I will give it a go as well -- should be fun, and give our group yet another outlet for slinging purple prose at one another!

I may have to come up with another handle for those forums; not sure how well my kilt will do on the deck of a ship!

Cheers!

You should be OK on deck but UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you go aloft! O_O

[Diamondback]

And will they consider "quality of crew"? On this point I'm guessing "no", since for WOG only the plane characteristics are reflected, not the skills of individual pilots. Endeavoring to portray the skills of a ship's hands may be too cumbersome if SOG is to keep to the code of "fast, easy and simple play". I'm excited to see how the developers addressed all these nautical issues. Based upon Andrea's interview in which he stated that historical matters were closely considered, I'm VERY hopeful!
Actaully, it could be done very easily... if there's enough difference between say the "A" and "B" decks, maybe a slightly better "A+" deck for a ship with a better crew, and a not-quite-as-good "A-" deck for a weaker crew?

[wargamer]

How many of you fly boys plan on joining the navy when this game comes out?


Well, some do not have to switch services...

U.S. Navy Aviation http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/usna1910.htm

Royal Navy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Naval_Air_Service

[csadn]

Well, some do not have to switch services...

Heck, I had to browbeat the Master of Avatars into getting me my USN Hanriot avatar (it was the only way I could get a plane which I actually liked, in a color I liked, and with the correct national marking :) ).

As to ship-crew-quality: Handle it the way _WoW_ handles sustained-fire -- give the firer +1 for any nonzero card draw.

[Ed2]

As Rob said, I will give it a go as well -- should be fun, and give our group yet another outlet for slinging purple prose at one another!

I may have to come up with another handle for those forums; not sure how well my kilt will do on the deck of a ship!

Cheers!

If your near as good as that other Scot (John Paul), Brits and enemies of the Empress beware.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Actaully, it could be done very easily... if there's enough difference between say the "A" and "B" decks, maybe a slightly better "A+" deck for a ship with a better crew, and a not-quite-as-good "A-" deck for a weaker crew?

The +1 system that is already in place could be used to designate a more able crew.
Rob.

[Marechallannes]

Pictures of a prototype HMS Bellona:

[Marechallannes]

...and a maneuver card with the ship:

[Flying Officer Kyte]

...and a maneuver card with the ship:

Now that is interesting, and will serve to narrow down the conjecture as to the way the wind blows!
Thank you Mr. Sven. My complements to the First Lieutenant. Ask him to tell the Master to heave to, furl the sails and splice the Mainbrace. The Officers may then join me in the Great Cabin for a drop of Maderia.
Bligh.

[David Manley]

From the look of this it should be straightforward for those of us with existing 1/1200 fleets to create simple gunnery and wind templates. Looks good. Mind you, those gunnery arcs look awfully wide!

[Guntruck]

They do a bit. No bow/stern chasers?

[David Manley]

Apparently not, although several current sets of AoS rules ignore them as well. Given what looks like an aproximate scale of 1 gunnery point / card / token for each 10 guns in a broadside you'd only be drawing a fraction of a card anyway :)

[csadn]

From the look of this it should be straightforward for those of us with existing 1/1200 fleets to create simple gunnery and wind templates. Looks good. Mind you, those gunnery arcs look awfully wide!

Not necessarily -- in the later periods of the Napoleonic Wars (and earlier -- how much so, I forget), a sailing ship's guns could be pivoted, allowing the gun to start firing as much 45 degrees off of "straight ahead"; it required some amount of rigging to accomplish, and I think only British ships had it, tho'.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

They do a bit. No bow/stern chasers?

Did someone just mention a chaser? Mines a Minesweeper.
Bligh.

[David Manley]

Ships guns could be trained throughout the period of SOG-N but the move to wider firing arcs was indeed an innovation pretty close to the end of the period and was achieved fairly simply through the relocation of the ring bolts securing the guns. (I had a reference to hand that covered this in detail a couple of days ago but can I find it now? no chance!). I guess you can also make an argument that it (a) takes account of uncertainties as to the exact position and attitude of the ship (I've seen this described as the "electron cloud" theory of game firing arcs) plus firing through movement effects, and (b) it makes the game simpler. And it is in line with WoW which has far wider firing arcs for fixed guns than you would expect if you were considering the aircraft as a static entity.

[greenalfonzo]

Pictures of a prototype HMS Bellona:

Okay, for those of you who know about these things, how does this ship look? good? bad? nice details?

This games is all about the models, so I want to know if I should be excited by what I'm seeing.

[Oberst Hajj]

Well, I'm not a ship expert and the quality of that photo is not the best, but the detail level looks pretty good on a general miniatures level. You can make out details such as the canons, folds and ripples in the sail cloth, and at least some decorative wood work at the stern of the ship.

As a reference, here is a very nice model of the same ship (at least I'm pretty sure it is the same ship, my search turned up several HMS Bellona results):

http://www.admiraltyshipmodels.co.uk/acatalog/HMS_Bellona_Model.jpg

For easy comparison:

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25898&stc=1&d=1320175921

You can see that the mini is cut at the waterline (basically the wood colored portion of the model) as we would expect. That makes the unfinished mini look a little odd "out of it's element".

As a prototype, I would not expect to see the rigging... so that fact that none is shown is fine at this point as well.

[Ed2]

Still waiting for a clear picture :please: of a finished SoG model. :pint:

[berthier]

Odd sail configuration in the model isn't it? The aft mast doesn't have a main sail. The photos of the detailed model above show the ship with pretty much full sail, the "model" presumably is closer to battle sail but I thought they took most of the sails down for battle if at all possible (ie they could still maintain headway) the reason being to reduce fire risk, damage from debris falling, less stress on damaged mast and spas etc etc.

[Angiolillo]

To be fair to the people posting the previews, this is the link:

http://www.gioconomicon.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6051

There are also comments. In Italian, alas.

[David Manley]

Odd sail configuration in the model isn't it? The aft mast doesn't have a main sail.

No, thats OK. Quite often they were not carried. See this for a good example (one of many)

http://www.modelships.de/Melville_Beining/kgIMG_3493.jpg

The way the sails are modelled is in line with the way Rod Langton arranges the sails in his various sets. in fact the model illustrated here compares very well with Rod's. Some good pictures here for comparison.

http://www.rodlangton.com/napoleonic/frame.htm

Here's one (as the link takes you to Rod's main 1/1200 page and not the gallery - link on the left of the page)

http://www.rodlangton.com/nnimages/frigates.jpg

I think they'd do better with the courses (the lower sails) furled. I think this gives a better visual representation of a ship at "battle sail" or "easy sail"

[Oberst Hajj]

Thanks for the link Andrea. For our English only reading members, here is a translation of that page:


First introduced Christof Cianci Games Ares describing the birth and intent. The group was founded in July 2011, continuing the vision of Roberto Di Meglio: an Italian publishing house but completely oriented internationalism. After the collapse of the Nexus Games International, to find people interested in the project was, according to Cianci, a fortune, and enabled the group to continue the path from left to found the NGI Ares. The Ares Games aims to be international, and therefore its products are printed mainly in English, in short, the Ares is an "American" in Italian publishing. The choice to be distributed on our national territory from the Red Glove was mainly motivated by the enthusiasm shown by this young and energetic publisher, who was far more free in its catalog of games of a certain power as those proposed by Ares.

Frederick Dumas adds that the Red Glove is now active for 5 years, and then chose to want to work with a company like Ares, it would have precisely the complete catalog of products specializing in perfect style "American games". Working with the Ares was easier than expected, and the distribution agreement was reached very soon.
Further, the products will be printed in English by Ares, and located in the Italian Red Glove. A complete job, then.

Roberto Di Meglio instead spoke of the first games in the catalog, that is the basis of the first production of the Ares. Of course the game is the first War of the Ring (The War of the Ring, in Italian), which will be printed in its second edition by the end of 2011. Roberto WotR revealed that this time will not be just a game itself, but it triggered a whole editorial line, which provides some expansion, accessories (such as card holder boxes in a case that will also serve as an upgrade kit from first to second edition) ; Battles of the Third Age will be developed as part of strategy game, and is expected even a card game.
The second product is the basis of Ares award-winning Wings of War but for editorial reasons and trademark has now assumed the title of Wings of Glory. This edition will be full editorial support for the version of the First World War and for the second. Of course the rules will be fully compatible with all previous material, but new material is already at the door.
But the Ares certainly not resting on our laurels, and Di Meglio has already announced the next book projects, some even in preview.
First of all there will be the publication of Sails of Glory, a naval combat game based on the mechanics of WoG, already known to the Italian public (Gioconomicon spoke here). The starter set should be similar to the formula of WoG, and then include everything you need to play more than four ships (presumably two English and two French), and will be set during the Napoleonic wars. But it is possible that there will be developments that will cover historical periods prior or perhaps even later (at least until the time of the Ironsides). The game should be out for the summer of 2012.
The second project is on site Micro Monsters, the Maggi-Nepitello proven pair, which will match the mechanical X-Bugs/MicroMutants, but with further simplified rules and therefore suitable for the smallest, already laid out in several editions and in early of 2012.
Finally there will be a game system Colovini Leo, called Fog of War, an American war game but with mechanical tending to German games.

At this point it would be interesting to know whether the Ares team there will be any room for foreign authors. Roberto Di Meglio is quite clear: prototypes and ideas from many foreign authors are already being evaluated and therefore that any author can submit a game for Ares style is welcome.

The audience greatly appreciated the opportunity to have news about this new house, and took the opportunity to ask questions. First of all we wondered if in a publishing world that seems so inflated as to play the Italian idea of ​​opening a new home is not risky. Frederick Dumas said that he agreed that the landscape is almost saturated, but that having the best games there will be no problems. Roberto Di Meglio has responded along similar lines, citing the fact that the Ares opens the dance with two pillars of all respect as WoG and WotR. Finally Christof Cianci stresses such as competition push to do even better and that the Ares is ready to give up.
But bad news for fans of other games NGI, as the licensing works for many less fortunate than WotR like Age of Conan Marvel Heroes or will not, at least for now, taken in hand (also due to the expiry of the license).

Finally some questions about WoG and SoG. Of course there will be full compatibility between WoG and WoW, and there are other interesting news for fans, for example also the distribution plan of the aircraft. Most of the classic aircraft (for example, Fokker Dr.I, Spad VII, Sopwith Camel) will be offered for sale for WoG, but probably out of the plan will become more special: each month will be put on the market a new plane with all its variants, as opposed to different aircraft.
As for SoG instead, the choice of the Napoleonic period was driven mainly by reasons of diffusion of the period (it is still one of the most played, if not the most played, historical period), and also by the fact that the naval war to 'age of sail is always fashionable, much of the modern and contemporary art.
Finally, as mentioned WoG will base set with four planes and rules will all be there, so the planes earlier, as read above, will be fully compatible with the new rules. Only the bombers in the package will have more rules and tokens in order to integrate their special mechanical properties with the rest of the game.

So the Ares overlooking the market as a liner just out of the harbor, with its big guns ready to fire, and see how manage to keep the sea and the storms that await the recreational boaters of the Sea International.

[Angiolillo]

I add that in the same show, Roberto Di Meglio won the yearly Award for Lifetime Achievements.

[Oberst Hajj]

I add that in the same show, Roberto Di Meglio won the yearly Award for Lifetime Achievements.

That's great to hear!

[Timmo UK]

The model looks very promising to me. I look forward to seeing a fully decorated example and am particularly interested to see how they handle the rigging or if they leave it off altogether. The masts look suitably fine. I'm very pleased to see a 74 – as there were five vessels in the Bellona class pus two other almost identical builds/classes. Multiple purchases of this one model and there's a fleet!

[Walt Powell]

Now that is interesting, and will serve to narrow down the conjecture as to the way the wind blows!
Thank you Mr. Sven. My complements to the First Lieutenant. Ask him to tell the Master to heave to, furl the sails and splice the Mainbrace. The Officers may then join me in the Great Cabin for a drop of Maderia.
Bligh.

I'm not sure it DOES "narrow down that conjecture", FO Kyte. Not to be argumentative but certainly the maneuver card shown gives us a glimpse of how different sail settings will work with wind movement, but it still doesn't clarify if they addressed prevailing winds and having the weather guage in your favor. In other words, if both friend and foe have the same tpye of movement simply based on sial settings, then we are dismissing which way the wind is blowing and to whom it confers favor.

Also, "easy sail" WOULD have been more "battle ready" on the minis, but we'll have to live with it.

[Walt Powell]

...and a maneuver card with the ship:

A thousand apologies to FO Kyte and everyone else more fluent in Italian than yours truly. Of course, "vento" is wind in english and they HAVE INDEED apparently addressed it. I'm so sorry for jumping to conclusions. Apparently, you CAN teach a 56-year old dog new tricks. Picture "sheepish-looking" smiley face.

[Oberst Hajj]

Look closely at the image again:

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25899&stc=1&d=1320176003

You will notice that there are different colors around the outside edge of the card. Also note that the wind (Vento in Italian) direction is noted on there. If the wind "enters" the card in the green edge, as it does in this image, the ship is moved to the green set of arrows. If it enters the card on the yellow section, the ship is moved to the much shorter yellow arrows. When the wind enters the red edges, there are special rules that you must use.

So, wind is factored into it. It looks like it is simple enough for the way the game is meant to be played, yet will effect ships facing different directions differently... just what we needed I think!

[Oberst Hajj]

I find the Ship stats interesting as well. Looking at the yellow section, it looks like it has a "crew rating" of 4. At full hands, the guns would deal 4-5-4 chits of damage (All assumptions on my part to the damage system that will be used). It looks like you can take two "hits" to the crew before it effects your firepower. The same applies for boarding actions... which I think is shown at the bottom of that yellow area.

Also of interest is the helm (?) with a 3 next to it. Looking at the maneuver card that was played in this image, it has the same symbol, but with a 6 next to it.

[Walt Powell]

Look closely at the image again:

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25899&stc=1&d=1320176003

You will notice that there are different colors around the outside edge of the card. Also note that the wind (Vento in Italian) direction is noted on there. If the wind "enters" the card in the green edge, as it does in this image, the ship is moved to the green set of arrows. If it enters the card on the yellow section, the ship is moved to the much shorter yellow arrows. When the wind enters the red edges, there are special rules that you must use.

So, wind is factored into it. It looks like it is simple enough for the way the game is meant to be played, yet will effect ships facing different directions differently... just what we needed I think!

Of course you're right, Herr Oberst. I'm a fool. Thanks for pointing out the subtleties of the movement card that I completely missed. Obviously "proofreading" is NOT what I do to earn my keep. Might there be several lashes in this for my failure to render proper courtesies of rank to FO Kyte..........or do I appear too eager?

[Walt Powell]

Look closely at the image again:

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25899&stc=1&d=1320176003

You will notice that there are different colors around the outside edge of the card. Also note that the wind (Vento in Italian) direction is noted on there. If the wind "enters" the card in the green edge, as it does in this image, the ship is moved to the green set of arrows. If it enters the card on the yellow section, the ship is moved to the much shorter yellow arrows. When the wind enters the red edges, there are special rules that you must use.

So, wind is factored into it. It looks like it is simple enough for the way the game is meant to be played, yet will effect ships facing different directions differently... just what we needed I think!

Herr Oberst: once I have been flogged properly, could you also offer your interpretation of what the other symbols on the card might represent? I think that might be helpful to all of us; even those with more wits about them than myself.

[Oberst Hajj]

No worries on my part. I initially overlooked the whole colored edges as well until Andrea pointed them out in a different posting.

[Walt Powell]

Of course you're right, Herr Oberst. I'm a fool. Thanks for pointing out the subtleties of the movement card that I completely missed. Obviously "proofreading" is NOT what I do to earn my keep. Might there be several lashes in this for my failure to render proper courtesies of rank to FO Kyte..........or do I appear too eager?

Annnddd...you've already done it. Time for me to crawl back in my shell and let you guys do the job you do so well. Enough from the "peanut gallery". lol

[Flying Officer Kyte]

A thousand apologies to FO Kyte and everyone else more fluent in Italian than yours truly. Of course, "vento" is wind in english and they HAVE INDEED apparently addressed it. I'm so sorry for jumping to conclusions. Apparently, you CAN teach a 56-year old dog new tricks. Picture "sheepish-looking" smiley face.

There is absoloutly no need to apologise to my second cousin F.O. Kyte Walt. it is all these years scanning the sky/ or seas in this case for enemy sail that has sharpened his eyesight up to such a peak of excellence. That and trying to make out a landfall through the bottom of a glass(and not a spyglass either)
Rob.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Herr Oberst: once I have been flogged properly, could you also offer your interpretation of what the other symbols on the card might represent? I think that might be helpful to all of us; even those with more wits about them than myself.

I must come to the defence of my second cousin Bligh here Walt. He has suffered from a very bad press down the years, not to mention Charles Laughton.
He is not in the habit of flogging anyone, but may be ameniable to loaning out one of the native girls from time to time.
For the uninitiated, the title I have chosen for Sails of Glory is Bligh. I thought no one else would wish to be associated with such a drunken reprobate(actually totally unfounded by the Historical records), but it seems to suit me down to the ground/deck/ floor of the Mess.
Rob.

[Ed2]

Will there be bases and playmats ?

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Will there be bases and playmats ?

Maybe Andrea will be able to answer that one for you Ed.
Rob.

[csadn]

And it is in line with WoW which has far wider firing arcs for fixed guns than you would expect if you were considering the aircraft as a static entity.

Well, with aircraft, it is possible (and in some cases necessary) to fly in a direction other than that which the nose is pointed (for ex.: Making a landing in a crosswind). IIRC, Lanoe Hawker scored not a few kills with a gun which was mounted at an angle to avoid the prop; to use it, he had to crab the airplane about 15-20 degrees while making his run-in.

And as anyone who has played gamed involving "spinal mount" weapons can tell you: Straight-line firing "arcs" render a weapon cursed-near useless. (I played _Renegade Legion: Leviathan_; my favorite BB was the _Venatrix_ class -- There Is A Reason For This. :) )

Re the sails: In some cases -- Trafalgar, for ex., which occurred quite literally in the calm before the storm -- a ship would have to pack on every scrap of canvas it carried just to make headway. IIRC, every ships had at least two sets of sails -- one for "normal sailing"; and another for combat. I don't recall which was which, but one set was of heavier canvas than the other (or should have been). So, depicting a sailing ship entering combat with its full set of sails isn't entirely ahistorical.

Also: The mizzenmast doesn't normally carry a course; esp. not if a spanker is carried, as the latter will block the air getting to the former.

[Oberst Hajj]

Will there be bases and playmats ?

Bases are going to be a must I think. We are going to need something that has the starting line and ending arrow to match up to the maneuver cards as well as firing arcs. As to play mats, that is a tough one. Unless Ares has a different strategy then Nexus did, I would think they would be slow sellers just like the old WoW mats. Those might not have been a money sink to Nexus since the distributors picked them all up, but those same distributors (and retail stores) my not be so keen on doing that whole thing again.

[Ed2]

Aye, trews would work -- but to be so confined in a bifurcated garment upon the open seas... sigh.

;)

Cheers!

KiltedWolf, have you heard this one before ?

Click on the link below . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=MZ35SOU9HTM
<http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=MZ35SOU9HTM>

[Walt Powell]

I have to say that, now that we've had a brief glimpse of the maneuver cards and the minis, I'm even more impressed with how SOG appears to be taking shape. I'm surprised by the meticulous yet simple details that they have designed into the game!! Ares seems to have kept the game easy to play, but not sacrificed a great deal of nautical detail to do so. Outstanding!! Sure, I'd like to see rigging (maybe the finished products will have it), but I don't see the lack of it as a deal-buster. (We CAN add our own!) :) Thanks again to Herr Oberst for clearting up some of the finer points of what we've been offered a peek at.

Herr Oberst, is there anything else that may have been mentioned that would be of interest to us? ---Walt

[Walt Powell]

Bases are going to be a must I think. We are going to need something that has the starting line and ending arrow to match up to the maneuver cards as well as firing arcs. As to play mats, that is a tough one. Unless Ares has a different strategy then Nexus did, I would think they would be slow sellers just like the old WoW mats. Those might not have been a money sink to Nexus since the distributors picked them all up, but those same distributors (and retail stores) my not be so keen on doing that whole thing again.

I have to agree.....bases will have to be part of the game offering (for the reasons that Herr Oberst has already outlined). Play mats won't be nearly as vital as they were to WOW to create the immersion we're looking for. A blue or blue-green cloth, blanket or other throw can easily be laid down on a tabletop; even ruffled up a bit to represent waves. For those who want more detail (wakes, breakers and whitecaps, etc) there are many of these surfaces offered already. Besides, any time period of ocean would do; it hasn't changed much through the centuries :) (unlike the look of a particular part of "no-man's land" or landscape that we want for WOW). ---Walt

[Walt Powell]

I have to agree.....bases will have to be part of the game offering (for the reasons that Herr Oberst has already outlined). Play mats won't be nearly as vital as they were to WOW to create the immersion we're looking for. A blue or blue-green cloth, blanket or other throw can easily be laid down on a tabletop; even ruffled up a bit to represent waves. For those who want more detail (wakes, breakers and whitecaps, etc) there are many of these surfaces offered already. Besides, any time period of ocean would do; it hasn't changed much through the centuries :) (unlike the look of a particular part of "no-man's land" or landscape that we want for WOW). ---Walt


BTW.......Langton already offers 1/1200th buildings and harbors for those who want a close-to-shore battle scenario (blockade, cutting-out raid, etc). And I'm sure we'll have many of our fellow Aerodromers designing shorelines, harbors, etc. If "clipper" gets into this game, I'm confident he'll be losing more sleep providing us with many playing pieces and options. lol

[Walt Powell]

There is absoloutly no need to apologise to my second cousin F.O. Kyte Walt. it is all these years scanning the sky/ or seas in this case for enemy sail that has sharpened his eyesight up to such a peak of excellence. That and trying to make out a landfall through the bottom of a glass(and not a spyglass either)
Rob.

Thank you, Sir, for your kind reprieve! Upon reading the aforementioned I'm wondering........is your nautical "cousin" more into this game for the grog above all else? lol

[Walt Powell]

I must come to the defence of my second cousin Bligh here Walt. He has suffered from a very bad press down the years, not to mention Charles Laughton.
He is not in the habit of flogging anyone, but may be ameniable to loaning out one of the native girls from time to time.
For the uninitiated, the title I have chosen for Sails of Glory is Bligh. I thought no one else would wish to be associated with such a drunken reprobate(actually totally unfounded by the Historical records), but it seems to suit me down to the ground/deck/ floor of the Mess.
Rob.

Well Captain Bligh then........I will certainly take you up on the offer of a native girl. I AM a bit concerned about the shpping and handling (especially the tariff) on such a package. And what about air holes? My russian mail order bride was pretty surly when I finally opened the wrappings (that didn't work out). Sooo, yes, one island girl, if you please, Sir.

PS- I most heartily agree, CAPT Bligh; history gave you a raw deal. :)

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Well Walt shipping her by air holes will cost more I'm afraid, but look what you get for your money.
26013

Bligh.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Thank you, Sir, for your kind reprieve! Upon reading the aforementioned I'm wondering........is your nautical "cousin" more into this game for the grog above all else? lol

Fifteen men on a dead man's chest. Yo Ho Ho and a bottle of Rum.
Rob.

[Jeff Cope]

I'm definitely planning on picking up Sails of Glory next year. I'm really looking forward to the game. In fact, in preparation for the game I've started reading the Horatio Hornblower series of novels by CS Forester since it deals with naval warfare in the Napoleonic Wars.

[Walt Powell]

Well Walt shipping her by air holes will cost more I'm afraid, but look what you get for your money.
26013

Bligh.

Ahhhh, yes. But it appears Mr. Christian has already claimed her as a prize? If, perhaps, she is indeed now yours to ship, Capt Bligh, by all means do so post-haste by whatever means are available. Purchase price would fall under the "money is not an issue" heading. lol ---Walt

[Walt Powell]

I'm definitely planning on picking up Sails of Glory next year. I'm really looking forward to the game. In fact, in preparation for the game I've started reading the Horatio Hornblower series of novels by CS Forester since it deals with naval warfare in the Napoleonic Wars.

The Hornblower novels are a very good read, Jeff. I would also recommend Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey-Maturin works (Russell Crowe's movie "Master and Coimmander" is loosely based upon several of these books). But, for my taste thus far, Alexander Kent's series of books about the naval career of his fictitious British commander Richard Bolitho are hard to surpass for readability and entertainment. I'm in the midst of devouring the first three books of each series right now....they are all approximately 10 or so novels in lenth.

[David Manley]

In addition to the Hornblower, Aubrey & maturin and Richard Bolitho novels I'd strongly suggest the "Ramage" series by Dudley Pope. Rip-roaring adventures mostly, not as technically in-depth as the Aubrey & Maturin novels, not as "bodice ripping" as the later Bolitho novels, but stonking good fun and packed full of scenario ideas.

Darn it, just read them all :)