Rudder Damage rules?

[rcboater]

I have always thought that the official rudder damage rules were somewhat broken-- the damage doesn't take effect immediately- but it does affect the next turn. Assuming an opponent notices that you don't turn right for a turn, it is too late to take advantage of it--the problem is now "fixed".

I know some people play that rudder damage is permanent-- but that can lead to problems with the artificialalities of the game surface-- the edge of the map.

If you assume that the "rudder damage" card isn't meant to be taken literally-- that it is a game abstraction meant to inflict a "loss of maneuverability", then there are other ways to implement this.

I was thinking one option might be to say that rudder damage means "no more sharp turns" -- only the shallow turns are allowed. Has anyone ever tried something like this?

[Oberst Hajj]

I've not tried this, but I think I would look more at limiting them to not doing steep maneuvers... but then you run into issues with the stalls and some planes not having steep turning maneuvers.

[IRM]

I've been house-ruling that you play a single rudder jam as normal, but a second jam in the same direction is permanent.

[rcboater]

I've been house-ruling that you play a single rudder jam as normal, but a second jam in the same direction is permanent.

In theory, this sounds like a good idea. But I wonder: Does that ever come to pass in play? IIRC, there aren't that many rudder damage cards to begin with. I would think the odds of getting two of the same rudder damage to be pretty low......

[rcboater]

I've not tried this, but I think I would look more at limiting them to not doing steep maneuvers... but then you run into issues with the stalls and some planes not having steep turning maneuvers.

Good idea-- here's a variation on that:

Rudder Damage: ignore the left/right part of the card. Instead, use the following:
First rudder damage card: No more immelmans/SPlit S maneuvers. If one was planned in the remaining cards of the current turn, you still do it, but no more are allowed after that.

Second rudder damage card: You can't play two turn cards in a row-- you need a straight in between each turning card. (Straight, stall, climb, dive all count.)

Additional rudder damage cards don't cause any additional effects.

If your plane doesn't have an Immelman card, you go straight to the second card effect-- no two turn cards in a row.

[Charlie3]

Personally I don't have a problem with the rule as written, since it has screwed me more times than I can count. However if you want the result to be more effective how about simply making the card be in effect TWO Game Turns instead of only one. This would allow other pilots to catch on and take advantage of a wounded enemy, or if you are lucky no one will notice until it is too late! Players would still have to deal with the possibility of not being able to turn at all if they pull both Right and Left Rudder Jams in the same game turn. (happened to me this week!)

[krolik]

Our group plays with permanent rudder damage. We haven't found it to be a huge problem, unless you get both left & right rudder damage.:eek:

Although the idea about limiting the ammount of turns in row you can play seems interesting.

[Oberst Hajj]

However if you want the result to be more effective how about simply making the card be in effect TWO Game Turns instead of only one.

This is probably the easiest and best way to make the rudder damage effect more prominent.

[IRM]

In theory, this sounds like a good idea. But I wonder: Does that ever come to pass in play? IIRC, there aren't that many rudder damage cards to begin with. I would think the odds of getting two of the same rudder damage to be pretty low......

Not that often, perhaps once every 10 games or so unless you're very lucky/unlucky, which was pretty much what I was going for. I was modelling the house rule on the existing pilot and engine damage rules.

[Pseudotheist]

Good idea-- here's a variation on that:

Rudder Damage: ignore the left/right part of the card. Instead, use the following:
First rudder damage card: No more immelmans/SPlit S maneuvers. If one was planned in the remaining cards of the current turn, you still do it, but no more are allowed after that.

Second rudder damage card: You can't play two turn cards in a row-- you need a straight in between each turning card. (Straight, stall, climb, dive all count.)
Why don't you consolidate these rules and keep the directional indicator? If you take a rudder damage, you can't make 2 consecutive turns in that direction for the rest of the game.

[LGKR]

I thought an interesting variation would be to ignore the directionals and make it that the rudder is stuck in what ever direction that the last manuever card was in the turn that the rudder jam was drawn. In other words if the last manuever was a right turn, you would have to play 3 right turns the entire next turn.

[Oberst Hajj]

That could have been an interesting rule had they made some of the rudder damage icons red and some green like the jam icon.

[IRM]

Interesting thread. I think I might try changing my version to having any 2 rudder jams preventing the aircraft from performing any steep manoeuvres other than a stall.

[Charlie3]

I thought an interesting variation would be to ignore the directionals and make it that the rudder is stuck in what ever direction that the last manuever card was in the turn that the rudder jam was drawn. In other words if the last manuever was a right turn, you would have to play 3 right turns the entire next turn.Hey I like that idea:)

[kannoneer]

I had a double rudder jam on two planes left and right in the same game bad luck. After the game and some long discussion about the problem we came up with this. One rudder hit limits you to slow wide turns and a second hit would have the affect of getting you tail shot away sending you to the ground.

[Grinneth42]

I agree with the interesting thread comments... I'm going to poll my players, but I might push for the 'two game turns' idea. I like the thought behind the actual jammed rudder that LGKR posted. Maybe we'll give that a shot too and report back.

[Cruthers]

I thought an interesting variation would be to ignore the directionals and make it that the rudder is stuck in what ever direction that the last manuever card was in the turn that the rudder jam was drawn. In other words if the last manuever was a right turn, you would have to play 3 right turns the entire next turn.

I like that idea. Something I tried was implementing the jammed rudder immediately, so if the next card was a maneuver not allowed, they have to play a straight instead, the idea being that this reflected a moment where the pilot is trying to turn left/right without response. I think I like your idea better though.

[rcboater]

I like the idea of taking away cards.

The idea of making it a 2 turn effect also has merit, but I am already finding it hard to remember restrictions and effects from turn to turn-- this would just be something else you have to remember. I find that players get caught up in the game, and get so focused on trying to outguess the oponent that they forget about restrictions that prevent them from playing a certain type of card.

If you take away cards at the instant the damage is inflicted, there's nothing to remember going forward. (Except where you put the "lost" cards, and that they need to be returned to the deck after the game's end.)

Given that most fighter planes have 5-7 turn cards, I think taking away 3 cards might be an appropriate effect of the damage....

[sparty]

To me it's a matter of how much chrome you want to throw on top of the system.

There are already a bunch of great WW1 games out there with plenty of in-depth mechanics going on in them.

The idea, remember, is that the game plays fast, has simple rules, but a great deal of carnage and strategic depth.

Adding in exceptions all over the place means you're slowing things down as people try to remember all the conditions of their planes. That's why I love the tokens and taking them away.

Adding a turn to it seems more than sufficient. Getting into, if X condition, then Y & Z are affected, and if X & A, then B & C with Y are in effect gets pretty complicated...pretty quickly.

[Belis4rius]

I am with Sparty on this one, all our house rules are simple and easily remembered. I also have a play sheet which details what is done each move and in which order, it also lists the effects of special manouevres and damage. So anyone following it won't forget to remove a token or take damage, hopefully :)

[Rum Demon]

I've become a big fan of the permanent damage variation, as played in Krolik's group.
It just makes sense, rudders don't fix themselves. I imagine a control cable snapping on that side of the plane. You can still pull the rudder the other direction, and it'll still allow for straight flight.
As for flying off the board, well, that's what the immelman is for. If you're playing in a campaign, or otherwise keep a roster of pilot sheets, you may just want to get that guy out of the action anyway, to fight another day.
I've personally drawn rudder damage (specifically "no left") in every one of my last five sorties. It makes the game more interesting when suddenly you have to adapt to new conditions.
-Joe

[sparty]

I like the idea of that being a condition enough to cycle out the pilot to fly again in a later sortie with a repaired plane.

[mattcalaho]

Well this is my official first post, and there are some great ideas for this situation. My group has played that the damage number on the direction arrow is how many turns the rudder is jammed. Another variation we use use is, if your plane has taken half its damage rounded down then the stuck rudder is permanent for the rest of the game.

[sparty]

That's a pretty elegant idea about the damage number + rudder damage = the number of phases you suffer that effect. It definitely gives some variability to the damage and recovery.

Not too sure about the half damage rounded down thing, but it sounds pretty reasonable and logical. How frequently are you seeing that pop up? What happens if you've pulled a 4 damage + rudder special damage and in the next phase you take 2 damage that puts you below half. Does the fact that you have pre-existing rudder damage make it permanent or do you have to sustain rudder damage while you're at or below half damage?

[mattcalaho]

The half damage idea is actually one of our most agreed upon rule, for all sorts of situations. It seems to work the best for rudder damage though. Also you have to sustain damage after being below half damage for your rudder to be broken the rest of the game.

[rcboater]

Adding in exceptions all over the place means you're slowing things down as people try to remember all the conditions of their planes. That's why I love the tokens and taking them away.


I'm with you here-- that's one of the problems with the existing rudder damage rules-- keeping the rudder damage secret--- you don't have tokens to remind you.

I think I'll try the "take a couple of cards away" rule next time I run a game....

[Charlie3]

That's a pretty elegant idea about the damage number + rudder damage = the number of phases you suffer that effect. It definitely gives some variability to the damage and recovery.

Not too sure about the half damage rounded down thing, but it sounds pretty reasonable and logical. How frequently are you seeing that pop up? What happens if you've pulled a 4 damage + rudder special damage and in the next phase you take 2 damage that puts you below half. Does the fact that you have pre-existing rudder damage make it permanent or do you have to sustain rudder damage while you're at or below half damage?Too much math for me;)

[sparty]

Yeah that's the kind of stuff that always gets me.

I do a lot of work with clients spec'ing out software requirements so those one-off instances and rules tend to get me fired up because I spend a large part of my days dreaming up how things can be broken.

[rcboater]

I'm with you here-- that's one of the problems with the existing rudder damage rules-- keeping the rudder damage secret--- you don't have tokens to remind you.

I think I'll try the "take a couple of cards away" rule next time I run a game....

I ran a couple of games at Havoc this weekend, and I tried the "take away cards" rule for rudder damage. If someone got "no right turn" damage, I would take all of the cards that are marked with the right turn symbol in the bottom left corner of the card, and randomly take three of them out of the deck for the rest of the game.

The good: All but one of the players was new to WoW. Like most beginners, they had a little trouble remembering to do things-- like not play two steep maneuvers in a row, to remove their jam counters, etc. Taking away cards for rudder damage made things easy for them to deal with-- there one less thing to remember. The feedback from the players was that taking the cards away did have an appropriate impact-- bad enough to affect them, but not crippling.


The bad: In 16 sorties, 5 planes got a rudder damage card at some point. All 5 of them got the rudder damage after playing the first card of the turn-- which took me to a scenario I hadn't thought about ahead of time-- what do you do if turn cards are planned for cards 2 or 3?

I decided to handle this by leaving the planned cards as they were-- I just took all the remaining right or left turn cards in the deck, and selected 3 of them at random.

At first, I would take the collected cards and set them aside. Later on, I realized that it was smarter to just tuck the "lost" cards under the control board-- that way they didn't get separated from the parent deck.

Overall: I think the "take away three cards" rule works well. It had the desired effect of simulating a partial loss of maneuverability, and didn't add another restriction that players had to remember. I'd say that it does reduce your maneuverabilty some, but not as severely as engine damage.

[Charlie3]

... I think the "take away three cards" rule works well. It had the desired effect of simulating a partial loss of maneuverability, and didn't add another restriction that players had to remember. I'd say that it does reduce your maneuverabilty some, but not as severely as engine damage. I usually forget about half of my cards in play anyway;)

[Desaix]

Last year I was playing with a permanent take away card rule and on the long run it is not satisfactory and it is mostly unrealistic in terms of simulation...

[Charlie3]

Really anything you choose to use as a house rule will work, I have found good points in all of these ideas.

I have always consedered the Jammed Rudder a situation where the pilot finds that his rudder peddles won't move a specific direction so he does what we all do when something won't move...he tries to force it. Then he wiggles it back and forth a few times. Finely the cable finds a way to continue to slide, or that piece of wood that was jammed in the hinge comes loose and he can use it again.

I do like the idea of the rudder staying stuck in a direction for a turn or two, but enforcing the situational rules in a game where everyone has hidden damage may be too difficult. The rules stated here all sound like fun though! This game still amazes me when it comes to stuff like this, the system is flexable enough to let you do these things and the game is still playable and fun!

[Desaix]

I am coming up with a radically different use of this special damage...
My main objectives are to have more historical flavor and to have more differences in behavior between the planes...
I will probably conduct some tests this week end and post some of the things that worked...