Special Damage Question

[Willi Von Klugermann]

If at the end of a turn you draw 2 damage cards which prohibit left and right turns can you play an Immelmann on your next series of 3 cards ?

[wargamer]

If you play the basic game, where the Immelmann card represents the Immelmann loop, of course you can as no turns are involved.

If you play the rule that it is supposed to be the World War One Immelmann Turn, then you have a problem as you can't very well make any turn.

It is a game, as long and you and your friends agree on it ahead of time the rule can be either way. Have fun!

[Linz]

Yes Al is right with this.
Linz

[Flying Officer Kyte]

How would you roll out of the top of the loop to regain your stable flight without rudder?
Rob.

[grumpybear]

If you play the basic game, where the Immelmann card represents the Immelmann loop, of course you can as no turns are involved.

If you play the rule that it is supposed to be the World War One Immelmann Turn, then you have a problem as you can't very well make any turn.

It is a game, as long and you and your friends agree on it ahead of time the rule can be either way. Have fun!

I like this idea. One more thing I have wondered about is side slips with rudder damage. Can you do with no rudder?

[Bruce]

Same comments as previous, more or less.
A sideslip in real flight is accomplished using only ailerons; no rudder is used.
But for this game a LEFT RUDDER special damage prohibits the planning of any LEFT manoeuvre in the next Turn.
LEFT MANOEUVRES are those with a tiny LEFT ARROW in the bottom left corner of the manoeuvre card.
When an aircraft has both Left and Right rudder damage in the same Turn (a rare occurrence) we do not allow Immelmanns. This is one of our few house rules.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Same comments as previous, more or less.
A sideslip in real flight is accomplished using only ailerons; no rudder is used.
But for this game a LEFT RUDDER special damage prohibits the planning of any LEFT manoeuvre in the next Turn.
LEFT MANOEUVRES are those with a tiny LEFT ARROW in the bottom left corner of the manoeuvre card.
When an aircraft has both Left and Right rudder damage in the same Turn (a rare occurrence) we do not allow Immelmanns. This is one of our few house rules.

I'm glad you said that Bruce. I have only met the Right and Left rudder problem once, but it often would lead to considering an Immelmann especially if you were heading to the edge of the table at the time. As you say with no L or R arrow on the card within the strict interpretation of the rules (if not in spirit) you could pull one.
Rob.

[wargamer]

Well, then consider yourself upside down then in the top of the loop... it is a game... who cares if many of these aircraft would find the fuel stopping, the oil at the wrong places in the engine, etc. In reality, the immelmann as a loop is wrong anyways in the world war one context, so why argue about the next war's realities.

[steel_ratt]

According to the game rules, since there is no rudder direction indicated on the card, the Immelmann can be performed even with a completely jammed rudder. Realistically, you would need to have rudder in one direction to bring the tail of the aircraft around.

Re: the side slip... I was under the impression that _opposite_ rudder was required. Ie. to slip to the right, you tilt the wings to the right and use left rudder to counter the natural tendency of the aircraft to turn in that direction. Am I wrong?

[Niclas]

As I'm a game rather than simulation kind of guy - I say no right/left turn means no using cards with right/left turn symbol, all others are ok (including immelman).

[Flying Officer Kyte]

As I'm a game rather than simulation kind of guy - I say no right/left turn means no using cards with right/left turn symbol, all others are ok (including immelman).

I agree entirely Niclas.:clap: However, I feel that in answering these type of questions we need to open up all the possibilities for those who do want to simulate the action. As I have said before each to his own. The beauty of this game is that you can stick to the gameplay, or fashion your own system of play out of it. i generally stick to the official line myself, unless playing KoTA, where we follow the rules of that game. Most of the Col's. rules follow in the spirit of the original just with the tweaks needed to make it playable as a campaign.:thumbsup:
Rob.

[Kaiser]

How does the damage of the Rudder prevent an Immelmann? You use the Elevators to make the 180° vertical turn and then the Ailerons to roll right the plane.
The Rudder is only used for left/right yaws.
Strictly speaking you could make turns without using the Rudder. Just roll the plan 90° to the side and pull the stick so that the Elevator turns the aircraft around. Downside is that the nose will drop (even more severe on radial engines on right turns) as you can't use the Rudder to keep it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_control_surfaces

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Thanks Daniel.:thumbsup: That answers my original question in post 4. I thought that you may have had to correct for yaw as you resumed horizontal flight at the end of the roll. I knew someone who was a proper pilot would come up with the definative answer.:clap:
Rob.

[Ravenlord]

When I used to fly a model-plane I used the rudder only at start or landing and when I tried to fly in a straight direction.
The question has to be - If you cannot make a turn to the left or to the right, is there a damage on the rudder or on the elevator control?

Matthias

[steel_ratt]

You may not need rudder for what is now called an Immelmann (a half-loop). You DO need rudder for a WWI Immelmann which is more like a hammerhead turn (but without coming quite as close to a stall). The WWI Immelmann... 1. climb to slow your air speed, 2. crank the rudder hard to one side to bring the tail around, 3. dive to regain air speed.

As to 'which flight surfaces are damaged', I think the answer is 'whichever ones are needed to perform the prohibited maneuver'!

[Flying Officer Kyte]

The simple answer then Jon, is go with the symbols on the cards unless you feel like being really authentic? Thanks for giving an alternative answer as to what the Immelmann meant to a WW1 pilot. :thumbsup: We had a lengthy debate about this some while back and came to the same conclusion as I recall.
Rob.

[Ravenlord]

You may not need rudder for what is now called an Immelmann (a half-loop). You DO need rudder for a WWI Immelmann which is more like a hammerhead turn (but without coming quite as close to a stall). The WWI Immelmann... 1. climb to slow your air speed, 2. crank the rudder hard to one side to bring the tail around, 3. dive to regain air speed.

As to 'which flight surfaces are damaged', I think the answer is 'whichever ones are needed to perform the prohibited maneuver'!

I think the manover you described is now called an U-turn.

@rob

yes it´s better to simply follow the symbols on the cards - it is not authentic to climb onto the wing and repair the damaged control-wire of the elevator in three turns!

Matthias

[Willi Von Klugermann]

Thanks for all the input but I see there is no real consensus. The rulebook states that this particular damage applies to the rudder (jammed) and maneuvers to the right or left cannot be performed. This is sort of an oxymoron as you can turn without applying rudder and WWI Immelmanns (wingovers) required full rudder close to stall speed.

[Oberst Hajj]

Actually, there is a consensus on this... the official rules as written in the rule book. The Immelmann card can be played as it has no left or right directional arrows on it.

Anything else is a house rule and should/would need to be discussed over in that section ;)

[steel_ratt]

I think that there actually was already a consensus that the official rules stipulate that the Immelmann is not affected by rudder jams. (Nice to have an actual quote from the rules to put that question to bed.)

The discussion over the realism and actual use of the flight control surfaces in various maneuvers was interesting in its own right, though.

[MayorJim]

Actually, there is a consensus on this... the official rules as written in the rule book. The Immelmann card can be played as it has no left or right directional arrows on it.

Anything else is a house rule and should/would need to be discussed over in that section ;)

Oberst Hajj ... and others..got this right...I actually had both a left and right out at the same time at Origins and had to Immelmann my way around for a bit...