View Full Version : When was the best time to be a pilot?
During some ready room banter the other day we started a debate about what historical era would be the best to be a combat pilot.
All of the different time periods we discussed have their pluses and minuses, but if you had to choose one era which would it be?
Another peacetime pilot here! Priority one is always getting to fly another mission, and having nobody shoot at you will only help those odds. Given that that's probably outside the scope of the discussion... For a combat pilot, I'd definitely say the future. Soon, you're going to be able to roll out of bed, drive to work, and fly combat missions on the other side of the globe. The pilot inside the aircraft going to be obsolete soon enough.
One more for Peacetime
Yes, yes...I figured I'd get a few of the "I ain't getting shot at" replies. Everyone wants to play pretend, but very few would actually sign up for it.
Keep in mind folks that this discussion was started in a ready room full of combat pilots so maybe we just have a bit different perspective being as how we have actually been shot at.
That being said, I'm not asking anyone here to sign up for a tour in A'stan...I'm merely asking a hypothetical.
I'll go ahead and start the polling answers by saying that during the discussion that inspired this poll, I immediately said WWI.
Soon, you're going to be able to roll out of bed, drive to work, and fly combat missions on the other side of the globe. The pilot inside the aircraft going to be obsolete soon enough.
Exactly why I would never vote for that option, since I feel the days of piloted combat missions will became increasingly rare in the future. They might not go away completely, but the kind of things they are able to do with UAS' is becoming more and more complex.
"Ender's Game" comes to mind.
Bluedevil
04-22-2011, 13:17
I think the future...there will probably be no pilots sitting in the aircraft anyway :confused:
AlgyLacey
04-22-2011, 13:37
Hmmn... I think this kind of depends on which side you were on - Korea, for example the Loss exchange ratio was 12-1. Great for the septics - not much fun for the Commies.
Hmmn... I think this kind of depends on which side you were on - Korea, for example the Loss exchange ratio was 12-1. Great for the septics - not much fun for the Commies.
Dave we talked at length about this very point concerning certain eras.
Me I went with WWI because I still think it was the most fascinating period in aviation history.
AlgyLacey
04-22-2011, 14:09
True, Oh King.. The infancy of anything means that there is a chance for the amateur, the innovator and the imaginative to do great things. On the other hand when the a/c were so unreliable that more pilots are killed by mechanical failure or bad luck than enemy action it's a very unforgiving and stressful thing.
The experience of the wind in your face and the taste of the castor oil must have been the most immdiate and real sense of flight - no fly by wire or cockpit canopies. Equally (I ride a motorcycle all year round) when you have chillblains on your chillblains, fungal toenails due to poor circulation and what we of the open-front helmet refer to as "old bike face" I can see the attraction of the glasshouse, the heated flying suit, the pushbutton start and the nice fellah in an AWACS telling you where the bandits are.
Bluedevil
04-22-2011, 15:03
Dave When I ride my bike I go for the "hard top" system ..I hate it when flies obscure my smile... But I definitely see you point :)
Nevertheless, how romantic WWI flying may seem I think pilot survival will increase towards the year 2020 and up...by then they'll fly those contraptions they call aircraft from a bunker 500m below level "zero"... :rolleyes:
Oberst Hajj
04-22-2011, 22:38
For me it has to be WWII. While the romance of WWI aerial combat pulls at my heart, as I pilot I'd want to have a machine I could count on and enough enemy about me to make it fun... at least after the sortie!
Flying Officer Kyte
04-23-2011, 01:13
WWI. for me. With the Albert Ball factoring in, the wind in the wires, and the flying by the seat of your pants aura, it just has to be the greatest period to fly.
It was all so new and untested.
Rob.
Boy howdy! This is a tough poll. I went ahead and chose WWII because of the exploits of the Battle of Britain, Flying Tigers, Doolittle Raid, Pearl Harbor, Der Luftwaffe, US Navy, etc. As the Colonel mentioned the a/c of WWII were more reliable than the WWI kites. If I had to go down, I'd rather be shot down then my plane quitting. Team playing of WWII one out, I'm a team player person. Although I love the romanticism and chivalrous nature of WWI. But, to me at least, the most beautiful fighter plane ever...F-86 Sabre. I wonder if FFG/NEXUS will do a WoK version? (Wings over Korea) Exciting, no? Wonder how they would do the maneuver cards?
CappyTom
04-23-2011, 05:09
Peacetime.
Niclas you beat me to the answer. Also I would guess it depends on which era you enjoy reading about as well. I am assuming this is a romantic look at it and not actually being there. If actually being there the question would be, When was the best time to be a pilot and live?
Tom
For those that answered peacetime...
I'm curious. What is the motivation? Is it as simple as fear for your life? Or is it something else, like not believing in the particular cause of a given conflict?
If you did answer peacetime, try to step outside of your reasons and think about what type of aircraft you would want to fly in most and answer the poll with whatever era that aircraft was flying. For instance if the Concorde would be your choice of plane, then maybe cold war era would fit for an answer.
I was hoping that more folks would actually consider the idea of being a combat pilot.
Boy howdy! This is a tough poll. I went ahead and chose WWII because of the exploits of the Battle of Britain, Flying Tigers, Doolittle Raid, Pearl Harbor, Der Luftwaffe, US Navy, etc. As the Colonel mentioned the a/c of WWII were more reliable than the WWI kites. If I had to go down, I'd rather be shot down then my plane quitting. Team playing of WWII one out, I'm a team player person. Although I love the romanticism and chivalrous nature of WWI. But, to me at least, the most beautiful fighter plane ever...F-86 Sabre. I wonder if FFG/NEXUS will do a WoK version? (Wings over Korea) Exciting, no? Wonder how they would do the maneuver cards?
Terry, it was a tough choice b/w WWI and II for me as well. I went with WWI partly for the opposite reason that WWII won out in your choice...that is, the idea of the lone pilot out on patrol, in an open machine that is very unforgiving of stick and rudder errors, looking for the enemy, is very appealing to me.
That being said, I believe someone over on BGG had created some sort of jet variant of WoW. I can't remember now, and I never read any rules if there were any, but I'm sure this could be done. The playmats would have to look like a satellite image from space to make the moves look abstracted enough huh?
During our discussion on this poll question, a lot of us liked the idea of the cold war era, because, from a pilots perspective, aviators commonly flew three or more different machines during the course of a career. It was not unheard of for a pilot to start out in Sabre's for instance, then fly A-7's, and finish up his service flying C-141's.
CappyTom
04-23-2011, 06:54
Your right. Being a combat pilot I was torn between WW1 and Future. WW1 was great having the open cockpit and a more 1 on 1 battle. The future because of what I can imagine. Fighters that not only in the air but also in space.
Tom
For those that answered peacetime...
I'm curious. What is the motivation? Is it as simple as fear for your life? Or is it something else, like not believing in the particular cause of a given conflict?...
Are you saying that combat pilots actually prefer times of war? Saying "peacetime" has nothing to do with feelings of self preservation. Just that its preferable for everyone to live in time when there isn't an ongoing major catastrophe such as war, and that in times of peace it is in part due to our brave combat pilots who deter aggression that the peace is kept.
phililphall
04-23-2011, 11:57
Naval Aviation in the 1930's. More different a/c acquired during that period than any other. F4B,F3F,F6C-3, Sparrowhawk, Airships Akron and Macon, TBD's. From open to closed cockpit in a decade.
I went with WWII, to me it is the perfect blend of man and machine.
pflanzer
04-23-2011, 17:46
Peacetime. Getting shot at sucks. Being shot at and hit sucks even more.
Tony
gully_raker
04-23-2011, 22:33
My choice would be WW1. To be in at the start of Aerial Combat where there was at least for a while some respect & Chivalry. (e.g. Gyniemer Vs Udet)
I went for Vietnam though it was a tough call between that WW1 & WW2. I went for Vietnam one reason alone and that was helicopters, not to knock the efforts of fixed wing aircraft but for me it;s the development and multi application use-age of the helicopter from simple observation to the use of the machine as an anti-tank weapon.
For those that answered peacetime...
I'm curious. What is the motivation? Is it as simple as fear for your life? Or is it something else, like not believing in the particular cause of a given conflict?
If you did answer peacetime, try to step outside of your reasons and think about what type of aircraft you would want to fly in most and answer the poll with whatever era that aircraft was flying. For instance if the Concorde would be your choice of plane, then maybe cold war era would fit for an answer.
I was hoping that more folks would actually consider the idea of being a combat pilot.
Terry, it was a tough choice b/w WWI and II for me as well. I went with WWI partly for the opposite reason that WWII won out in your choice...that is, the idea of the lone pilot out on patrol, in an open machine that is very unforgiving of stick and rudder errors, looking for the enemy, is very appealing to me.
That being said, I believe someone over on BGG had created some sort of jet variant of WoW. I can't remember now, and I never read any rules if there were any, but I'm sure this could be done. The playmats would have to look like a satellite image from space to make the moves look abstracted enough huh?
During our discussion on this poll question, a lot of us liked the idea of the cold war era, because, from a pilots perspective, aviators commonly flew three or more different machines during the course of a career. It was not unheard of for a pilot to start out in Sabre's for instance, then fly A-7's, and finish up his service flying C-141's.
Good point Bartman. If I was alive and were a pilot in WWII I would've been a bomber pilot with a crew. Everyone working together to bomb the target.
To those who answered 'peacetime', sure this is true! That said, no true military pilot wants to be in a war. Remember SAC's motto, "Peace is Our Profession", yet these guys trained in Nuclear Weapons delivery and had B-52's and KC-135's in the air 24/7 and they were all hopeful they never had to follow through with their mission. I know as my real father was in SAC and I remember him saying on his deathbed that those years were his proudest, but I also remember he said he prayed when they were ordered to their Failsafe positions that they would be called back. Fortunately, they always were. I asked him why he stayed in if he was worried all the time and he said he signed up for it and it was his duty to protect and defend the country he loved.
To, horribly, paraphrase John Wayne in one of his westerns his character says something like, "I don't go around looking for trouble, but if it finds me... then I'll finish it". That's the attitude of our military and my dad and I guess me.
Now, Bartman, I got your six...if you're heading for the OC!!!
My choice would be WW1. To be in at the start of Aerial Combat where there was at least for a while some respect & Chivalry. (e.g. Gyniemer Vs Udet)
Barry, that is one of the most appealing things about the era to me. As you pointed out it didn't really last, but for a time there was an unspoken honor.
I'd like to think that if I knew my enemy was completely helpless and I knew it, that I would give him the high sign and look to fight another day.
Great point.
I went for Vietnam though it was a tough call between that WW1 & WW2. I went for Vietnam one reason alone and that was helicopters, not to knock the efforts of fixed wing aircraft but for me it;s the development and multi application use-age of the helicopter from simple observation to the use of the machine as an anti-tank weapon.
Alastair you da man! Give it up for Helos.
Terry...That was a great post. Thank you.
and...
Now, Bartman, I got your six...if you're heading for the OC!!!
thanks wingman, first round on me.
AlgyLacey
04-25-2011, 00:48
When was the best time to be a pilot and live?
That's the rub though. I have attended too many funerals of friends already - imagine what those empty places in the mess feel like day in, day out.
How does it feel when the FNG lasts less than two weeks and you didn't bother getting to know them because a) You didn't have time and b) it hurts less when they don't come back? Or maybe they do come back but splattered around so badly by cannon shells the have to be hosed from the ruins of their turret. Or maybe they screamed all the way back from Berlin with an abdominal wound and damage to their eyes from splinters of shell and plexiglass.
Nice to be a survivor but a lot of the old boys I've spoken to have a lot of ghosts that stay with them.
I'm still going to vote for peacetime.
What aircraft would I most like to fly? - I'd need a collection to reflect mood, weather, what I'm reading... But it would have to include a DH2, Gladiator, Hurricane & Spit, Mosquito, F86, A4, A7, English Electric Lightning, F4, Sea Harrier and a UH1D Huey for nipping to the shops.
MayorJim
05-07-2011, 17:17
Are you saying that combat pilots actually prefer times of war? Saying "peacetime" has nothing to do with feelings of self preservation. Just that its preferable for everyone to live in time when there isn't an ongoing major catastrophe such as war, and that in times of peace it is in part due to our brave combat pilots who deter aggression that the peace is kept.
I agree...peacetime...however; to put myself into the shoes of a "pilot"...I want to fly drones over A'stan :D ....WW1 is fun to simulate, but would not want to fly with ice on my goggles and equipment held together with wire and glue...
g.paoletti
05-14-2011, 06:07
WWII for me. It was the period with the higher rate of aircraft developement but the pilot was still the master.
Peacetime is better in every life activity. But we are on a wargame forum then ...
G.
WWII was the best time to be a pilot
Albert Ross
05-14-2011, 23:07
I wonder if FFG/NEXUS will do a WoK version? (Wings over Korea) Exciting, no? Wonder how they would do the maneuver cards?
Lots of very long straights and no stall maneuver ;)
I'd love to do "WoW Mig Alley" too, and it should be possible as an extension of the WWII game; heck, some of the planes are still the same!
CappyTom
05-15-2011, 03:47
Lots of very long straights and no stall maneuver ;)
I'd love to do "WoW Mig Alley" too, and it should be possible as an extension of the WWII game; heck, some of the planes are still the same!
With the introduction of air to air missiles.
Tom
richard m schwab
05-15-2011, 04:12
The reply to this answer was given by a man who flew in WW2, Korea and Vietnam. When they are not shooting at you!
Rich
I voted WWI because of the romance associated with the new-ness of flight. However, the romance of any combat is really just silly. It is only in hindsight and seen through the lens of colorful history books and with the fading of time that it becomes so.
But, I am one of those who feels that some things are worth fighting for. My intent with this thread was to see what era really inspires that evocative feeling associated with being a warrior pilot.
g.paoletti
05-15-2011, 07:45
I voted WWI because of the romance associated with the new-ness of flight. However, the romance of any combat is really just silly. It is only in hindsight and seen through the lens of colorful history books and with the fading of time that it becomes so.
But, I am one of those who feels that some things are worth fighting for. My intent with this thread was to see what era really inspires that evocative feeling associated with being a warrior pilot.
+1 from a real "tabletop" warrior pilot :guns:
G.
With the edge U.S. has, I'll have to go with Modern Conflicts.
macka321
05-17-2011, 22:21
With the edge U.S. has, I'll have to go with Modern Conflicts.
Not so good if your not the US or friends
As to the modern driver not pilot, every part of the mission planned to the second, every phase of the mission controlled from above videoed and recorded for later evidence, rules of enguagement and a 30kg flight bag
Not so good if your not the US or friends
Fortunately you guys are friends right Stan.
As to the modern driver not pilot, every part of the mission planned to the second, every phase of the mission controlled from above videoed and recorded for later evidence,
Being a Cobra "driver" I can tell you that our missions are very open-ended and almost never videoed (Even when we try, the old VHS we have rarely works), and we are usually controlled from the ground in the objective area, as are the fast movers.
I can't get too into the ROE, but those are more of a product of the stage of the conflict we happen to be in. I can say that the early stages of OIF were as unrestrictive for coalition aviation as any any modern conflict.
macka321
05-18-2011, 05:51
Being ex millitary myself,
when your side is the low tech one
then it is not the time to be a combat pilot
Be2 v Albatros DIII
Cr32 v Hurricane
P51 v MIG15
Mig21 v F18
PS here's to the luftwaffe pilot that was shot down four times (I think) while training in 1944/45
Mike George
05-18-2011, 08:38
WWI is the best time to be a fighter pilot, the planes....love those planes.....
petitbilbo
05-18-2011, 11:33
When was the best time to be a fighter pilot? NEVER!
Killing people or getting killed by other people simply IS NOT FUNNY, GOOD, HEROIC or anything in the same line of crap!
Have we all played too many war related games that we cannot make the difference between having fun while playing and the true horror that is war?
I'm a 100% atheist and it does provide me with a really big pain in the neck to have to say that "thou shalt not kill" is the one big law that anyone should observe.
Wars are fought by little people over the whims of the big people, the little people often don't even understand the true reasons.
No, sorry, there's no single timeframe or reason to call being a soldier (whaterver the rank or arm he/she belongs to) FUN!
(I've lived in the army for 21 years of my life...)
There's no harm in playing, there's a lot of harm to be done by going to war.
Whish some overeager people somewhere in the northern part of the american continent would understand that.
Sincerely yours!
petitbilbo from Brussels, Belgium (invaded twice in one century) and formerly from Cologne, Germany (bombed to the ground)
</rant off>
When was the best time to be a fighter pilot? NEVER!
Killing people or getting killed by other people simply IS NOT FUNNY, GOOD, HEROIC or anything in the same line of crap!
Have we all played too many war related games that we cannot make the difference between having fun while playing and the true horror that is war?
I'm a 100% atheist and it does provide me with a really big pain in the neck to have to say that "thou shalt not kill" is the one big law that anyone should observe.
Wars are fought by little people over the whims of the big people, the little people often don't even understand the true reasons.
No, sorry, there's no single timeframe or reason to call being a soldier (whaterver the rank or arm he/she belongs to) FUN!
(I've lived in the army for 21 years of my life...)
There's no harm in playing, there's a lot of harm to be done by going to war.
Whish some overeager people somewhere in the northern part of the american continent would understand that.
Sincerely yours!
petitbilbo from Brussels, Belgium (invaded twice in one century) and formerly from Cologne, Germany (bombed to the ground)
</rant off>
Why don't you tell us how you really feel.
Could we all please just drop this?
The turn this thread has taken, it's become very serious. Dying and killing is.
I too have very strong feelings about these things, but I don't go to the Aerodrome to vent them.
I go to to the Aerodrome because I love WoW and to have fun!
/Niclas
David Manley
05-18-2011, 12:16
Ok, here's an attempt to lighten the mood.
A RAF pilot and an army officer in the mess one evening after dinner. The army officer asks the pilot, "I say old chap, when did you last have sex?"
"1957", says the pilot.
"By george", says the soldier, that was a long time ago"
"Indeed", says the airman,"its nearly 2100!"
Any time is agood time to be a pilot. Especially what with all the golf courses :)
Albert Ross
05-18-2011, 12:39
Actually 'Thou shall not kill' stems from an inaccurate translation of the Hebrew word 'ratsach', which means literally to 'slay' i.e. murder....
But I agree with David - the best time to be a fighter pilot was clearly 1957!
With the introduction of air to air missiles.
Tom
Sorry Tom, not until after the Korean War ended; I think the first war shots were over the Straits of Tiawan (sic) in 56 or 57.
Karl
AlgyLacey
05-18-2011, 14:54
Blessed are the peacemakers 'cos A) NOBODY has a bigger mini http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b-36-DFSC8408873_JPG.jpg
and B) 'cos it's their round. To the bar!
Bilbo.... I've left my wallet in my other aeroplane.. would you mind getting this one? ;-P
petitbilbo
05-18-2011, 15:08
Sure thing Dave! :thumbsup:
ROUND'S ON ME!
Sorry if I got a bit carried away there, but I was following this thread as a lurker for a few days and after a while I got a big urge to speak up...
With all the things happening in the world, I just feel that the Human Life has less and less value.
(and that's worth another round I guess) :eek2:
Won't happen again! (that's NOT a promise...) :lol:
petitbilbo
rapier1642
05-18-2011, 16:39
I would say the interwar period, during the period of the big air races
grumpybear
05-18-2011, 17:02
I vote WW11 beter planes and a parachute. I think you forgot Spanish Civil war .
Good point, I definitely forgot the SCW. Sorry about that.
When was the best time to be a fighter pilot? NEVER!
Killing people or getting killed by other people simply IS NOT FUNNY, GOOD, HEROIC or anything in the same line of crap!
Have we all played too many war related games that we cannot make the difference between having fun while playing and the true horror that is war?
I'm a 100% atheist and it does provide me with a really big pain in the neck to have to say that "thou shalt not kill" is the one big law that anyone should observe.
Wars are fought by little people over the whims of the big people, the little people often don't even understand the true reasons.
No, sorry, there's no single timeframe or reason to call being a soldier (whaterver the rank or arm he/she belongs to) FUN!
(I've lived in the army for 21 years of my life...)
There's no harm in playing, there's a lot of harm to be done by going to war.
Whish some overeager people somewhere in the northern part of the american continent would understand that.
Sincerely yours!
petitbilbo from Brussels, Belgium (invaded twice in one century) and formerly from Cologne, Germany (bombed to the ground)
</rant off>
Bilbo, you have got spirit old man! I like that.
I admire your agressive approach and courage in your convictions.
You would make a fine Marine.
...Whish some overeager people somewhere in the northern part of the american continent would understand that...
Hi Bilbo, please enlighten me. What do you mean by this sentence? I mean I get the rest of your rant, as you called it, but I am perplexed by the the above referenced comment as it relates to the rest of your "rant". Thanks for your clarification.
Respectfully,
Terry, from America
AlgyLacey
05-19-2011, 06:33
Dangerously close to politics people - curses! I mentioned the P word - reaches for the bell again.
Oberst Hajj
05-19-2011, 06:48
This thread is ground guys.
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