PDA

View Full Version : What planes to use for BOF/BOB?



Jager
03-23-2011, 13:23
I'm getting into DOW (thanks Tom:p ), and have a greater interest in the Battle of France/Battle of Britian period than the early Pacific war. I'm trying to figure out which of the minis is appropriate for this period. The Stuka and Hurricane I can figure out (gee, the green one with crosses, and the one with brit roundels), but i'm clueless with the Messersmitt, and puzzled about the Spitfires. With the latter, the only MKI doesn't look like it has the right colours, but I didn't think that any MKIIs came in until late winter of 1940/41.
Any help would be appreciated. Karl

Baldrick62
03-23-2011, 15:26
I think you're right about the Spitfire Mk.II's entry to service. There are some 'hybrids' around though: 'by the evening of 17 August (1940) 19 Sqn at Duxford had 15 cannon-Spitfires ready for action'.

I believe a small number of Bf109F were available during the BofB (think Galland was shot down in one), but for BofF and the majority of BofB it would be Bf109E.

The French had fielded small numbers of Dewoitine D.520 in time for the BofF.

csadn
03-23-2011, 16:51
I'm getting into DOW (thanks Tom:p ), and have a greater interest in the Battle of France/Battle of Britian period than the early Pacific war. I'm trying to figure out which of the minis is appropriate for this period.

Spitfires: Mk.IAs (MGs) were most common. 19 Sqdn.'s 1Bs were generally ineffective due to the cannons not being designed for use in wing-mounts. A handful of Mk.IIs appeared in August '40. Few to no Spitfires served in France, for obvious reasons.

109s: E models primarily, with maybe a few D models.

Jager
03-24-2011, 04:51
OK, I missed the model notations for the ME109s (I wonder if Gallard's is his F special with 2 wing cannons added back?); are both the paint designs good for BOF/BOB?
Spitfires: I can't see any visual difference between them (and don't know if there would have been in life, at this scale), so I assume that the difference is in the cards. So if I wanted a squadron of Spits (wallet groans) for BOB, I could buy a bunch of Falkowskis,
re-decal them and use cards based on La Mesurier's MKI. (Sidebar: does anyone have info on the dates of these particular planes? La Mesurier's looks like a FAA colour).
I was interested in the D.520 also (neat looking plane; had a couple in 72nd scale when I was a kid): when did the 2 ones in French colours fly, if known.
Thanks again all.
Karl

Dom S
03-24-2011, 04:58
No Spitfires at all in France - it was specifically ordered that the Spitfire squadrons be retained for home defence. The Le Mesurier is PR Mk I type G - armed photo reconnaissance, hence the PRU Blue colour scheme. In WoW terms I don't think there's any difference between the Mk.I and the Mk.II - both 8 MGs and no real performance difference, so I'd be entirely happy using the Falkowski Mk.II straight from the box as a Battle of Britain Mk.Ia.

Stormkahn
03-24-2011, 05:25
D.520's; Thallon fought in the BoF against the Italians afaics, Le Gloan's a/c is in vichy colours and the other one is Italian.
Bf109E; All three took part in both to some extent, not sure if the colour schemes are spot on though.
Ju87; The green one :) http://www.fritzthefox.com/german_camo_guide.html
Hurricane; Bader
Spit; Falkowski


On cards you can include the Gladiator too.

Too come; Bf 110, He 111

As models; Do17, Ju88, Defiant, Blenheims (I & IV), Fairey Battle

That's my 2p anyway :)

Baldrick62
03-24-2011, 06:15
Few to no Spitfires served in France, for obvious reasons.


No Spitfires at all in France...

Careful with your terminology guys! While Dowding was successful in ensuring that no Spitfires were forward-deployed to France in 1940 '(F)rom 10 May, Spitfire squadrons were authorised to carry out offensive patrols across the Channel. Spitfires first met Bf-109s and Bf-110s on 23 May: two of each type of Messerschmitt were lost, as were three Spitfires of 92 Squadron. Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding, head of Fighter Command, successfully resisted pressure from the highest levels to reinforce the fighters in France with Spitfire squadrons, thus preserving the Spitfire force for the forthcoming sterner battles in defence of Britain. Despite this, 67 Spitfires were lost during the Battle of France and the Dunkirk evacuation.' From 'The Supermarine Spitfire, an Operational History' by Christopher Whitehead.

Dom S
03-24-2011, 06:51
Good distinction - I think I'm off back to the WWI boards....

Jager
03-24-2011, 11:13
Thanks all. Karl

csadn
03-28-2011, 18:46
While Dowding was successful in ensuring that no Spitfires were forward-deployed to France in 1940 '(F)rom 10 May, Spitfire squadrons were authorised to carry out offensive patrols across the Channel.

Which is why I said "few to no" -- few were engaged at all, and none were deployed to France. ISTR Spitfire pilots had orders to not fly over land, but to remain over the Channel, to ensure the Germans couldn't salvage a Spitfire (if such an order were given, tho', I suspect it was an exercise in "giving an order you know won't be obeyed").

Baldrick62
03-31-2011, 13:43
Which is why I said "few to no" -- few were engaged at all, and none were deployed to France. ISTR Spitfire pilots had orders to not fly over land, but to remain over the Channel, to ensure the Germans couldn't salvage a Spitfire (if such an order were given, tho', I suspect it was an exercise in "giving an order you know won't be obeyed").

Chris, for a conspiracy theorist, you certainly seem to like dealing in absolutes with your own statements!

Selective quoting:
What you actually said was ‘Few to no Spitfires served in France’ (my bold). Taking that statement and your subsequent ‘Which is why I said "few to no" -- few were engaged at all, and none were deployed to France’, I guess that means that the F15E lost over Libya last week didn’t serve in Libya. I suspect the crew of that aircraft have a different view, as will the USAF when they’re giving out campaign medals!

Losses:
If ‘few were engaged at all’, I’m interested in your definition of ‘few’ given that ‘67 Spitfires were lost during the Battle of France and the Dunkirk evacuation’.
Christopher Whitehead. The Supermarine Spitfire, an Operational History

Deployment:
I’m pretty sure we were both thinking about fighter sqns (I certainly was), but it would appear we were both wrong regarding all Spitfires :
‘While the fighter versions of the Spitfire stayed in Britain, the first PR missions were flown from bases in France by Cotton's unit which was renamed ‘No. 2 Camouflage Unit’. On 17 January 1940, 2 Camouflage Unit was renamed the "Photographic Development Unit" (PDU), while another PR Unit, 212 Squadron was formed in France.’
Price, Alfred. The Spitfire Story: Revised second edition & Matusiak, Wojtek. Merlin PR Spitfires; Classic Warbirds No.10.

Just keep digging that hole deeper!

csadn
03-31-2011, 16:38
I’m pretty sure we were both thinking about fighter sqns (I certainly was), but it would appear we were both wrong regarding all Spitfires :
‘While the fighter versions of the Spitfire stayed in Britain, the first PR missions were flown from bases in France by Cotton's unit which was renamed ‘No. 2 Camouflage Unit’. On 17 January 1940, 2 Camouflage Unit was renamed the "Photographic Development Unit" (PDU), while another PR Unit, 212 Squadron was formed in France.’

Actually, I didn't know about the PR Spits; the only references I had were to fighter units. I can't find a proper breakdown of which Spits were PR and which were fighter, or how exactly they were lost (with RAF Hurricanes, many were captured or destroyed during the collapse of the Allied armies in France). However, I did find a listing of losses by day (quoted here: http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/war-air/4028-raf-losses-1940-a.html , #4) which puts the first Spitfire losses at May 23 -- the day the German High Command issues the "halt order" which allowed Operation Dynamo to be performed, and after the British forces had been split off from the main French armed forces. This site: http://www.airrecce.co.uk/index.html mentions the PDU having only one Spitfire total (based at Lille); this site: http://www.spitfirespares.com/spitfirespares.com/pages/misc3.html says two ; and one of my books says there were maybe 40 PR.ICs (later PR Mk. III) in service at the time. This site: http://france1940.free.fr/uk/raf_may.html says no Spitfire units at all were deployed, at least not initially, and the airrecce site doesn't mention any full PR sqdn.s in France either; this leads me to believe the PR sqdn.s were deploying from Britain, flying over the Channel, doing their work, and returning to Britain, never stopping in France if it could be avoided. So: Few (maybe 40 out of some 300+ built by that point) served in (or, rather, over) France; more served over the Channel (big difference, esp. where possible recovery of wrecked units for evaluation by the enemy is concerned, or when the chance of limping back to base is considered) covering the evacuation; and none (bar the 1-2 loaned to the PDU)) were stationed at French bases. If I can find a proper breakdown of sqdn. assignments for the campaign, I'll let you know. If you have one, please share -- I've been trying to find one for years.

"So what I told you was true -- from a certain point-of-view."

Stormkahn
04-04-2011, 05:13
Could any of the baloons be press ganged into WW2 service for BoB?

Baldrick62
04-04-2011, 10:52
Chris,
As our conversation has strayed far from the original purpose of the thread, and Karl seemed happy with the answers he'd received, I've started a new thread on PR Spitfires in the Historical Discussions for those with a specific interest.

One final point here though, and this may be my interpretation of your comments, but RAF involvement in the Battle of France didn't end with the Dunkirk evacuation on 23 May (and neither did the BEF, with 51st (Highland) Division at St.Valery). (I'd highly recommend Sean Longden's 'Dunkirk; The Men they left Behind' for anyone interested in the land campaign).

14-18 June 1940
'After the order of final withdrawal, Dowding’s last remaining units in France, Nos. 1, 73 and 501 Squadrons together with other surviving RAF contingent were heading for home. It is perhaps not widely known that the RAF continued to operate from French bases for a considerable period after the evacuation of the main British forces from Dunkirk. While the RAF bomber units almost ceased to operate in an airspace dominated by the enemy, the remaining Hurricane squadrons continued to give good account on themselves despite general lack of organisation and continuous relocations to new airfields as the old ones were overrun by the enemy.

These units were now given the task of covering the final British evacuation from France.

Determining which squadron was the last to leave France has been the cause of some debate, but it would seem that all three mentioned units left the French territory on the same day, 18 June.'

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/06/battle-of-britain-1940-last-hurricanes-in-france.html

Another book recommendation, though not one in my collection (at present)

The Battle of France Then & Now

Cornwell’s 600-pages long account begins in September 1939 when the first squadrons of the newly-formed British Air Forces in France were sent to the Continent. He goes on describing the events of the Phoney War and the fateful campaign of May-June 1940 on the day-to-day basis until June 1940, the evacuation of the BEF from France and its aftermath. The level of detail covered in the book is reportedly fantastic, going down to the fate of individual aircraft and crews. Cornwell’s work covers aerial operations of six nations: Britain, France, Holland, Belgium, Germany and even Italy.

Rabbit 3
04-13-2011, 10:45
Could any of the baloons be press ganged into WW2 service for BoB?
Might be useful as barrage balloons, which didn`t look all that different.
There is the scale problem though unless your one of those who use 1/144 WWII models.

Stormkahn
04-13-2011, 23:28
Might be useful as barrage balloons, which didn`t look all that different.
There is the scale problem though unless your one of those who use 1/144 WWII models.

yeah OK, I overlooked the scale issue but I was thinking barrage balloons :)

Next time I have a cunning plan I'll pass it by my 2yo daughter for sense checking lol :)

CappyTom
04-16-2011, 11:09
Sorry Karl. So tell me how far you have gotten. Which planes do you have? And most important...when are we playing it and where.

Tom

Jager
04-17-2011, 08:17
Well. I spent some of the tax return: 4 Stukas (green), 4 Hurricanes (Bader), 4 Spitfire Mk2 (Falkowski), 6 Bf-109s (2 of each), and 2 D.520 (Thalon). total 20.
One last question, which I didn't see answered: is there any difference in manuver decks between the Spitfire Mk1 and Mk2? I'm not sure if the performence difference would be significat at the scale DOW works.
As for our next encounter, Tom, it's still looking like after my vacation in May. latest fun: water in the basement. Not really a serious amount, more like a seep than a flow, but in a previously non-leaking area. That will suck down spare time this week. On the plus side, the office is mostly cleaned, and being orginised, so a work area is in sight.
Karl

CappyTom
04-17-2011, 08:57
Well. I spent some of the tax return: 4 Stukas (green), 4 Hurricanes (Bader), 4 Spitfire Mk2 (Falkowski), 6 Bf-109s (2 of each), and 2 D.520 (Thalon). total 20.
One last question, which I didn't see answered: is there any difference in manuver decks between the Spitfire Mk1 and Mk2? I'm not sure if the performence difference would be significat at the scale DOW works.
As for our next encounter, Tom, it's still looking like after my vacation in May. latest fun: water in the basement. Not really a serious amount, more like a seep than a flow, but in a previously non-leaking area. That will suck down spare time this week. On the plus side, the office is mostly cleaned, and being orginised, so a work area is in sight.
Karl

Sorry to hear about the leak. And the question about performance, I think they are about the same for this game purpose. Is there a maneuver deck for each of them?
Tom

Jager
04-17-2011, 09:56
Brains finally started in: opened the mini, and the Dawn of War box set. Both the Mk1 and Mk2 use an A deck.
Karl

CappyTom
04-17-2011, 11:38
Brains finally started in: opened the mini, and the Dawn of War box set. Both the Mk1 and Mk2 use an A deck.
Karl

I thought they were. I'm glad to have you in DoW, even if your not:o.

How about May the 3rd Tuesday we meet up in Toledo around 4pm and play DoW with tuladin, blackhawkdown and his dad up at Gameology. Maybe we could get some more people to play?

Tom

Jager
04-17-2011, 13:15
If it was Wednesday, it might be possible (Thursday is my day off). But with a 5AM start time on Wednsday, It just won't work. I wish it could.

CappyTom
04-17-2011, 14:51
If it was Wednesday, it might be possible (Thursday is my day off). But with a 5AM start time on Wednsday, It just won't work. I wish it could.

It's so hard to coordinate with everyone:mad:. John & Ben can't make that as his son has practice.:rolleyes: Now if gas wasn't so high I could make 2 trips and play both days:D. I thought you are going to be sick Wednesday the 4th.;)

Tom

Jager
04-17-2011, 16:22
It's so hard to coordinate with everyone:mad:. John & Ben can't make that as his son has practice.:rolleyes: Now if gas wasn't so high I could make 2 trips and play both days:D. I thought you are going to be sick Wednesday the 4th.;)

Tom

What, and miss the continuing idiotic Kent State "Rememberance" programs :p
Believe me, I'd rather be in Toledo than be within 100 miles of that.
Yeh, gas prices are a factor to consider too; not looking forward to the cost of the trip to NC in the larger vehicle. It's not a lot thirstier than the other one, but enough to tell the difference.
Karl