Blind Spot

[Redhugh]

Ok, so if I am playing with the Blind Spot and Altitude rules, my Ju-87 Stuka can not fire at any target at the same or lower altitude if the ruler passes through the rear edge of the base and the first half of the ruler touches the target base. But if the target is more than half a ruler away, it can shoot. The rear gunner can shoot at a target at a higher altitude no problem.

For my He.111 Heinkel, since it is a multi-engine airplane and there is no "black section" at the rear of the base, the #2 dorsal gunner CAN fire at any target to the rear of the plane at a target at the same, lower, or higher altitude.

So if I am correct the Blind Spot rule is different for single engine and multi-engine planes and the Stuka has a blind spot and the Heinkel does not.

Yes?

[OldGuy59]

I'd have to check the rules to be sure, but the rule should apply to all planes, IIRC.

However, depending on the version of He.111 you are using, there is a tail-stinger MG, that is controlled by the Dorsal Gunner. That can be fired in the blind spot, where the dorsal gun wouldn't be able to hit a target.

[flash]

The dorsal gun won't fire at targets below, that's the job of the rear ventral gun. Check the rules for the Heinkel, this is what it says on Ares site:
https://www.aresgames.eu/4266

A different gunner (crewman III) operates the dorsal rear machine gun and the rear machine gun. As an exception to the general rule that each gunner can only fire one of his weapons each turn, he can fire both machine guns in the same turn. The dorsal machine gun cannot fire against targets at a lower altitude.
The rules are downloadable here: https://www.aresgames.eu/5923

[OldGuy59]

Oops. Missed that "lower altitude" part.

One of the drawings I have come across, during card and firing arc research is this one:
281375

Game mechanics simplify certain things for ease of play, but note that in the above diagram, the tail gunner could hit targets at lower altitude.

[Redhugh]

I'd have to check the rules to be sure, but the rule should apply to all planes, IIRC.

However, depending on the version of He.111 you are using, there is a tail-stinger MG, that is controlled by the Dorsal Gunner. That can be fired in the blind spot, where the dorsal gun wouldn't be able to hit a target.

I am using the rulebook that came with the Battle of Britain starter set. On p. 33 it states "If the rear machine gun of a multi-engine airplane has a black section on its firing arc, the gun has a blind spot". The He. 111 H-3 does not have a black section on the stand. Also, in the Heinkel special rules that come with the airplane pack, the dorsal rear gunner (crewman III) can fire both the #2 dorsal gun and the #5 tail gun at the same time (note: this is an exception to the rule that one gunner can only fire one gun at a time). So if you are tailing a Heinkel at the same altitude (thanks Flash), you would be shot at with both guns and take 2 x A damage tokens.

At least that is the way I read it.

Thoughts?

[flash]

I'll let those more au fait with WGS confirm that one - It may well have already have been discussed before.
Some diagrams here that may support the theory but maybe there's no blindspot because of the stinger ?
http://legendsintheirowntime.com/LiTOT/Content/1944/AN_G_4408_Fire.html

[OldGuy59]

Looking at the published cards, I would have to go with Ares not showing the blind spot on the He.111, depending on the printed rules. They may have started putting blind spots on later cards, as they published planes. There is a separate firing arc for the tail gun, so I would suspect that there wasn't an attempt to incorporate the two arcs and therefore negate a blind spot.

If a target plane was in the right position, not in the blind spot of the #2 arc, but within both the #2 and the #5 arcs, yes. The target plane takes two chits on the first phase of fire. Now, if by some miracle, the target plane is in the same relative location, or at least within the same arcs, in the next phase, the target plane would take four "A" chits (one each from each gun, but an additional one each from Aimed fire).

PS: Looking at the early Ares bombers, they did some interesting things with their cards.

For the He.111, they didn't mark a blind spot for the #2 Dorsal gun, at all:
281376
Note that on this card, they don't mark the 360 degree higher altitude arc as separate. This was probably because it was supposed that the gun didn't have the capability to fire in all 360 degrees upward. That has since been found to be in error. Dave's [Flash] link is the old theory of the arc on the #2 Dorsal position.
Check this video of the He.111 B-Stand Dorsal gun position: Youtube: He 111 Top Gunner B Stand (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnPuHpSLo_w)

For the B-25, they excluded the tail structure from the #2 Dorsal turret entirely on level:
281377
No 'Blind Spot' indication here either.

Now, for me, I'd say that the B-25 Dorsal turret could fire directly aft, without fear of hitting the tails, but that is just me, I suppose.

My rule for targeting with the He.111, is that I use the image of the plane on the card. As long as the ruler doesn't cross the tail of the plane to reach the target, the target gets hit.

PPS: Optional Plane cards for other bombers:

Not Official (we'll see this shortly, though):
281378
This is the late A-4, with two separate MGs in the aft cockpit (Same crewman fires both, so only one can fire at a time). I allowed for firing directly over the horizontal stabilizers/elevators, as they aren't technicallly in the way of shooting.

Not Official (We'll see an Official plane sometime this year, perhaps):
281379
Again, I allowed for firing directly over the horizontal stabilizers/elevators, as they aren't technically in the way of shooting.

So, for the above two planes, I didn't mark the blind spot, but did mark the arcs so that they didn't shoot the tail off.

[hokusai]

In case it's of any interest, just a short comment about the fixed tail gun in the Heinkel.

According to the document:

"Heinkel He 111 H & P & D - Bedienungsvorschrift für die bewegliche und starre Schusswaffe, Oktober 1940"

"Heinkel He 111 H & P & D - Operating instructions for the movable and fixed gun, October 1940"

On page 17:
290922

Translated:

"The MG 17, which is installed in the tail, serves to defend against airplanes which attack in the longitudinal axis of the aircraft by making use of the blind spot formed by the horizontal and vertical stabilizer.

It can be operated by both the B-stand and the C-stand gunner."

[ricky]

So if I am correct the Blind Spot rule is different for single engine and multi-engine planes and the Stuka has a blind spot and the Heinkel does not.

Yes?

Right.

Checking the Battle of Britain starter set rulebook, single-engine two-seater blind-spot rules are on page 24 and apply to all rear guns; the multi-engine blind spot rules are on page 33, and only apply to multi-engine planes with a "black section" on its firing arc.