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Springbohne
01-03-2020, 02:58
While reading the special damage rules, following situation came two my mind.

Playing without altitude rules.

A space ship with two engine damage counters (no longer able to change KE) is moving with KE 6.
It then receives a hull/wings damage counter (no overboost cards allowed).

How do you handle this ship, because it can no longer plan legal maneuvers?

SavageGM
01-03-2020, 05:49
I’d rule no more overboost can be played and you should subtract the 3 KE from using an overboost from the KE total and be stuck at the KE of the remainder. Best I can think of until an official clarification.

Teaticket
01-03-2020, 06:07
Interesting situation! I haven't played enough to have this happen yet to me. I see a couple of options.

1. As you can't change KE but then can't plot an overboost, you are forced into an illegal move, take a damage chit each turn. This means certain death over time.

2. You do the above and reduce KE by 1 each turn (taking a damage chit each turn) until you are at KE 3 (similar to 2nd hull/wing hit) and then are locked in at KE 3.

I would opt for the 2nd.

OldGuy59
01-04-2020, 21:36
This is tricky. Note the second Hull/Wings damage effect. I don't know why this is here, but it requires the ship to slow incrementally to 0 KE.

I would almost have wanted the second effects for these special damages swapped. Hull/Wings could have restricted turns or Difficult Maneuvers.

I think I would go with suggestion 2 above, to drop below the need for Overboosts.

These rules are for multiple-engined craft, I suspect two on Cylon Raiders and three on Vipers. The Raptor has two, but the Heavy Raider has six? Same effects for all? Anything in the boxes for Raptors and Heavy Raiders that says differently?

flash
01-05-2020, 02:45
...I would opt for the 2nd.
Not my game but reading through it my first thought was the ship should simply break up on the next move, however, option 2 gives a playable result & I'd go with that given the choice.


...These rules are for multiple-engined craft, I suspect two on Cylon Raiders and three on Vipers. The Raptor has two, but the Heavy Raider has six? Same effects for all? ...
Would make life simpler - perhaps the rules should have read 'the engines are damaged' rather than using the singular.

matt56
01-05-2020, 07:15
With 'wings' damage that stops one from playing 'overboost', isn't that similar to WWI where a stuck rudder stops one playing cards in that direction next plotting phase, or an engine hit which requires one to 'stall' each plotting phase? I have control in that situation of my machine, and I have to plot accordingly. But if I am stuck going at 6KE due to engine damage, I have no choice but to continue - I have no engine to reverse or alter thrust to slow down (as the wings damage would require), So it would seem that I would continue drifting at 6KE (similar to movement/drifting if I were under control and changing facing to fire at bad guys), but I don't have power/engines to fire up and realign myself in another direction - I am stuck moving at 6KE for the rest of the game. Any sort of structural damage after my engines are dead is just structural damage - I am essentially now just a projectile moving in a straight line at 6KE until I am off the board or destroyed, whichever comes first... Certainly not a very enjoyable position to be in for a player...:p

Peter's Option 2 above would allow the pilot to remain in the game in a more 'active' role, but...

All the best,
Matt

Teaticket
01-05-2020, 07:44
...but the additional hull damage does not allow you to move at 4KE or higher. Now What?

matt56
01-05-2020, 07:53
It does not allow you to plot to move at > or =4KE (you cannot choose to do so if you have power), but you have no engines to do that with, so you are stuck as a 6KE projectile...I guess you could take a damage chit each turn to indicate that >4KE stress on the airframe, which would theoretically bring about your demise sooner rather than later...:eek:

In any case, I don't think you can choose to 'power down' to meet the restrictions of the wing damage rule...and I don't see any shedding of structure slowing you down, either...

All the best,
Matt

Teaticket
01-05-2020, 08:01
So its a slow death then.

What do you think if then you received a second hull special damage? Which has precedence, drifting at >4KE or do you then begin to slow down to 0KE?

matt56
01-05-2020, 08:05
In the vacuum of space, would 'less' hull cause you to slow or would there just be 'less' of you moving at 6KE?:confused:

I think it's the slow death speeding up...:eek:...maybe draw two damage chits per turn instead of one?

I think, all things considered, you are well and truly hosed...or perhaps 'frakked' is the correct term;)

All the best,
Matt

Teaticket
01-05-2020, 08:12
This part of the rules is badly written. One special damage contradicts another.

As you say though, if you are in this situation you are not in a good position, more of an end game for this ship.

flash
01-05-2020, 08:56
... I am essentially now just a projectile moving in a straight line at 6KE until I am off the board or destroyed, whichever comes first...
That was my second thought - with two engine damage cards you'll just career, straight line, off the table - but reading the rules it says you plan manoeuvres whose sum matches the KE so it appears, although the choice is limited, that you may still be able to turn and rotate..?
I was also unclear on what bearing the hull/wings would have on KE in the void of space - other than not being able to take the stress (not even sure that makes sense) - yet the rules suggest they do with the receipt of a second such damage and bleeding off KE to a stop... hmm.
Didn't make sense to me but that's why I like option 2 - it utilises an idea already in the rules, you stay in the game, you may still be destroyed by further damage as a result of the damage & it gives you options.

Naharaht
01-05-2020, 09:33
My suggestion is, if you have an FTL drive, use it to jump out of the battle to a safe area, use your escape pod and hope someone friendly finds you. If you have no FTL, use your escape pod, which will travel in a straight line with kinetic energy 6 until it is blown up or rescued but none of this is in the rules.

matt56
01-05-2020, 10:14
Yeah, Dave and David, I think you have good points... And, as I said, I like Peter's Option 2 as it keeps the player in the game with a 'chance' of surviving... The whole 'dead engine' thing makes things problematic, especially if there is no SAR component of the scenario.

Depending on the scenario numbers and length, I would say this is a perfect 'respawning' opportunity;)

All the best,
Matt

Flying Helmut
01-05-2020, 14:58
I'd have the ship fly straight, @ 6KE, until the pilot ejects or has his ship destroyed.

matt56
01-05-2020, 15:41
I genuinely think that's the easiest way to handle it, and it keeps with the rules, im Grossen und Ganzen...;)

All the best,
Matt

SavageGM
01-05-2020, 15:58
My fix for the situation adheres to both special counters being in effect, plus can still maneuver. The hull/wing damage obviously does something that stops the ship from going so fast so I’m not sure why the engine would be stuck in overboost.

Springbohne
01-06-2020, 07:22
... Iím not sure why the engine would be stuck in overboost.

Imo the engine is not stuck in overboost. Your engines aren't working, so your ship can't accelerate or deccelerate anymore.
In space this means you are stuck travelling with your current velocity for eternity (or until you hit something).

Jaxin
01-08-2020, 15:55
I agree with some of the other responses and would be to treat the ship like it was under intertial movement rules and no way to break out without a repair. If the pilot ejected though, they would also be under inertial movement rules with a different vector due to the ejection process.

Thinking about the hull damage, I can understand why you wouldn't able to overboost, but I can't understand why a second such damage, as written in the rules, would cause the ship to decelerate 1 KE each turn in zero G/non-friction space. It would make sense in an atmosphere. To stop a ship in space would take energy to null the inertia.

The overboost card in this case wouldn't be used as an overboost but only as a need to track inertial movement speed.

SavageGM
01-08-2020, 17:32
I guess they just wanted to affect the ships with damage in various ways to cripple everything they can do and settled on “hull/wing” damage to denote certain game effects, even if it doesn’t make good science. Really the engine is such a primary force for the ship it seems like it would encompass both engine damage and hull/wing damage. Maybe the hull/wing affects the power system of the ship and that’s why it slows down. Shrug.