Post WW2 Missiles

[Future Pilot]

How do Post WW2 missiles, work when you are firing them?
-Daniel

[Future Pilot]

Would they have a special maneuver deck? And what damage would they do?

[Jager]

A totally unexplored subject so far.
Karl

[OldGuy59]

Based on the range and accuracy (or lack thereof), and not paying any attention to movie depictions of missiles chasing planes all over the sky, firing missiles in Wings of Glory - Post WWII is easy.

In any situation where missiles could be fired, the firing plane chooses to fire missiles or guns. If guns, resolve normally. If a missile is chosen, and the target plane is in range and being tailed, then it might hit immediately.

This discussion has been had, I can't find where I put in my two cents, but there was this one:

Dare I Ask This Question (https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?11743-Dare-I-ask-this-question&p=169269&viewfull=1#post169269)

PS: Note that almost all rocket propelled missiles will move at Mach 3 (somewhere around 2000 mph) on being fired, and will cover any distance represented by a gaming table within one turn. If the missile doesn't hit its intended target, it will fall out of the sky, having burned all its fuel within a second of leaving the launch rail. No need for maneuver decks.

PPS: Found it - Part I Scale for Post WWII - Post #65 (https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?23876-Scale-for-Post-WWII&p=383130&viewfull=1#post383130)
Part II Scale for Post WWII - Post #70 (https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?23876-Scale-for-Post-WWII&p=383173&viewfull=1#post383173) (Hit Probability)

[fast.git]

If the missile doesn't hit its intended target, it will fall out of the sky, having burned all its fuel within a second of leaving the launch rail. No need for maneuver decks.

Sadly, this is probably the most likely outcome. Early missiles were notoriously unreliable.

[OldGuy59]

Sadly, this is probably the most likely outcome. Early missiles were notoriously unreliable.

As far as I could determine, IR Seeker missiles in the Vietnam War had a kill ratio of 16%? Most of this was due to poor training of the pilots in the capabilities of their weapon systems. But, also, the technology was in its infancy. Missiles fired today, within the engagement envelope are nearly 100%.

For damage, should any plane be hit by a missile that actually explodes as designed, there is no damage draw required. The plane hit is out of the fight. It won't retain capability for sustained and controlable flight, at least for game purposes.

Probably one of the reasons some of the Forum members don't want to play with missiles.

[fast.git]

As far as I could determine, IR Seeker missiles in the Vietnam War had a kill ratio of 16%?

Yeah... I've seen some estimates that place it a little higher, but not by much. And radar-guided weapons were rubbish.


Probably one of the reasons some of the Forum members don't want to play with missiles.

I would be one of those. I've got some interested in a Korean War era gun-show... something about MiG-15s and F-86s tangling over the Yalu strikes me as fun.

[Future Pilot]

How are you able to find out whether the missile hits or not?

[Baxter]

How are you able to find out whether the missile hits or not?

I would roll a dice. If the enemy plane was within two ruler lengths and in my front arc of fire then it is in range of my missile. From what I have read on the forum if the conflict was anything up to 1983 if I roll a 6 then it is a hit and would be shot down. If it was a later conflict then anything that was not a 6 would constitute a fatal hit.

[OldGuy59]

How are you able to find out whether the missile hits or not?


I would roll a dice. If the enemy plane was within two ruler lengths and in my front arc of fire then it is in range of my missile. From what I have read on the forum if the conflict was anything up to 1983 if I roll a 6 then it is a hit and would be shot down. If it was a later conflict then anything that was not a 6 would constitute a fatal hit.

I haven't answered the 'to hit' question, because I thought it was answered in another thread. I was trying to find that answer.

Just a personal preference, but being that this is Wings of Glory, I don't condone even the suggestion of the use of multi-facetted randomization devices. So, I tried to find a way to do the odds using the chits provided.

There is a means of determining hits, using 'A' damage chits, to a have similar odds resolution. I think the previous attempt at figuring this out had a draw of any chit with special damage being equal to about 17%, and would be a 'kill' if drawn, for the Vietnam Era. Past that as the 'kill ratio' goes up, the chit draw results goes up to certain numbers drawn equals a kill, to the current day, where only the highest chits drawn mean that the plane actually survives (any '0' to '4' or an explosion would take out the plane). I'm not sure that the odds are right, but with a bit of work, it can be straightened out.

[fast.git]

There is a means of determining hits, using 'A' damage chits, to a have similar odds resolution. I think the previous attempt at figuring this out had a draw of any chit with special damage being equal to about 17%, and would be a 'kill' if drawn, for the Vietnam Era. Past that as the 'kill ratio' goes up, the chit draw results goes up to certain numbers drawn equals a kill, to the current day, where only the highest chits drawn mean that the plane actually survives (any '0' to '4' or an explosion would take out the plane). I'm not sure that the odds are right, but with a bit of work, it can be straightened out.

This sounds like a sensible solution, were one wanting to determine hits within the current framework (cards/chits instead of dice).

[Future Pilot]

I haven't answered the 'to hit' question, because I thought it was answered in another thread. I was trying to find that answer.

Just a personal preference, but being that this is Wings of Glory, I don't condone even the suggestion of the use of multi-facetted randomization devices. So, I tried to find a way to do the odds using the chits provided.

There is a means of determining hits, using 'A' damage chits, to a have similar odds resolution. I think the previous attempt at figuring this out had a draw of any chit with special damage being equal to about 17%, and would be a 'kill' if drawn, for the Vietnam Era. Past that as the 'kill ratio' goes up, the chit draw results goes up to certain numbers drawn equals a kill, to the current day, where only the highest chits drawn mean that the plane actually survives (any '0' to '4' or an explosion would take out the plane). I'm not sure that the odds are right, but with a bit of work, it can be straightened out.
It works great, I tried it with a F-84 against a MIG 15 and one of the F-84s missiles just took the MIG out.

[Naharaht]

What about countermeasures (flares and chaff) and violent evasive manoeuvres including viffing by Harriers?

[OldGuy59]

What about countermeasures (flares and chaff) and violent evasive manoeuvres including viffing by Harriers?

Now you venture into the territory of what-ifs. The variations and effectiveness of all the technology start to skew results. Which is why, I believe, wiser heads have declined to go.

What is the effectiveness of the specific missile (and versions thereof), and are there any ECM/anti-missle defenses on board the target aircraft? Are there missile launch detectors or is the pilot going to have to 'judge' for himself when to deploy a counter measure? Then, is the deployed counter measure the most effective against the missile?

Depending on the missile, if it is radar guided, ECM could actually make the missile more effective, not less.

Also, depending on the IR missile, they actually lock onto the specific heat signature of the target, and generic magnesium flares, which are super hot, won't deceive the missile, and are entirely ineffective.

Depending on the type of missile and period, if a jet is targeted, and within range and envelope of the missile, maneuvering is useless. Though, in the Vietnam era, simply turning towards the launching plane, a normal response in a dogfight situation, was normally enough to loose the lock.

Harrier jets are another special case. Harriers have 'vectored' thrust, as they have directional nozzles, which can rotate up to 100 degrees. This makes keeping a lock on the heat source highly problematic. If the pilot knows that an IR missile has been fired, he can do much more evasive maneuvers than a normal jet, and those maneuvers could diminish or eliminate the heat source the missile is tracking. Also, the responsiveness of the jet, compared to the maneuverability of the missile, the range at which it was fired, etc, all change the probability of hit.

PS: There are unpublished capabilities of air-to-air missiles I am unwilling to discuss on this Forum that greatly effect missile performance. Suffice it to say, I'm pretty sure that technology and performance of missiles, fired in envelope, are highly effective, regardless of ECM and maneuvering. Vectored thrust could still be a player, though with IR seeking missiles. I don't have any knowledge of that, nor experience.