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Tokhuah
06-27-2018, 00:09
Is there an airplane card around for the B-29? I could not find any files on this site but maybe I am looking in the wrong places. The XC deck will work for movement. Oh yes, I am putting the final touches on my own B-29.

Naharaht
06-27-2018, 00:15
Do you think Keith might make some B-29 bases for the Aerodrome Store?

Jager
06-27-2018, 02:42
I haven't statted the B-29 (not that I remember anyway :erk:), but it shouldn't be hard.
Let me take some time today.
As for a card.......
here's one Max Headroom did, now in my files:
https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/album.php?albumid=2860&attachmentid=126341
You'll need to kludge together a management card.
Karl

Jager
06-27-2018, 05:58
OK, here we go:

B-29 stats

Deck: either V(b) (no 45 turns, reversals, and side slip is difficult)
which makes it 5% too fast, or take the XD deck, and enlarge it at 190%. This gives you the high speed,
and the slow is between max cruise and max fuel economy cruise.
Hits: 83!! Yeh this is a beast!
Guns: 2 dorsal turrets, B-B/B 360 level to high, with high only down the 6:00 line.
2 ventral turrets, B-B/B 360 low
1 tail turret, rear arc initially C-B-B/B-A, but later B-B/B or a few at B-B-B/B-A
Ceiling: 11
Climb: 8
Karl

Tokhuah
06-27-2018, 08:09
Thank you Karl. It should be a fun ride.

OldGuy59
06-27-2018, 08:23
Talk about slow...

This file is over two years old.
250207

Not sure why I stopped working on it, but perhaps it was too complicated?

OldGuy59
06-27-2018, 08:33
OK,
How does one do up a management card with this type of fire control system?

www.lonesentry.com - B-29 Remote Control Turret System (http://www.lonesentry.com/blog/b-29-remote-control-turret-system.html)
250208

I'm having a brain explosion, all over again.

Bobsalt
06-27-2018, 08:38
Not sure why I stopped working on it, but perhaps it was too complicated?
They make the B-29 in 1/200:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=b-29+1%2F200+scale&_sacat=0

You need to get busy and get this done! :thumbsup: This would make an interesting bombing mission for Origins next year. Have to have a lot of Japanese fighters to make it fair though...

OldGuy59
06-27-2018, 08:44
They make the B-29 in 1/200:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=b-29+1%2F200+scale&_sacat=0

You need to get busy and get this done! :thumbsup: This would make an interesting bombing mission for Origins next year. Have to have a lot of Japanese fighters to make it fair though...

The availability of a model is probably why I started. Then, no stats, and all the firing arcs, and the number of crew, the number of house rules it would require to use this monster...

OldGuy59
06-27-2018, 08:47
This thread started it all: B-29 Superfortress Flight Stands (https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?25137-B-29-Superfortress-flight-stands&p=404600&viewfull=1#post404600)

This is soo cool:
Youtube.com: B-29 Gun Turret Sighting System Part 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=nskFayhBcy0)
Youtube.com: B-29 Gun Turret Sighting System Part 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h4yBxydz0E)

The first video also shows the quad-50 call turret configuration. Very compact.

OldGuy59
06-27-2018, 09:10
This thread started it all: B-29 Superfortress Flight Stands (https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?25137-B-29-Superfortress-flight-stands&p=404600&viewfull=1#post404600)

This is soo cool:
Youtube.com: B-29 Gun Turret Sighting System Part 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=nskFayhBcy0)
Youtube.com: B-29 Gun Turret Sighting System Part 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h4yBxydz0E)

The first video also shows the quad-50 call turret configuration. Very compact.

Is it Google, or is it weird? I Googled B-29 Firing Arcs, and one of the images that shows up is the one above that I did!?

Jager
06-27-2018, 10:16
Yeh, the remote turrets would make the management card a pain; if I read correctly, a gunner would control 2 turrets (but they don't say which are linked), and a 4th man directed them. :erk:
At least the firing arcs are simple ;)
Karl

Bobsalt
06-27-2018, 12:06
I just read the old B-29 thread. Wow - a lot to read through there. My thought would be to not get too bogged down in detail. If you can get the guns/arcs 90% correct wouldn't that be close enough?

Teaticket
06-27-2018, 12:53
Oh boy. Just got some Ki-44s, now gonna need some of these bad boys.

OldGuy59
06-27-2018, 20:33
I just read the old B-29 thread. Wow - a lot to read through there. My thought would be to not get too bogged down in detail. If you can get the guns/arcs 90% correct wouldn't that be close enough?

If only....

The firing arcs are the start. The B-29 had remote controlled turrets, and two or more gunners could control more than one of them, each. The gunners were not in the turrets, either.

Nose Gunner/Bombardier:
250246
Please ignore the tail arc. The front two turrets could be linked and fired by the Bombardier. If a target was directly on level with the bomber, up to 6 50cal MGs (BBB/BA) could be brought to bear. Anthing above would be 4 50cals (BB/B) and anything lower would be 2 50cals (B/A). As there is one gunner, and one computer-aimer, only one target at a time can be fired upon, regardless of the existance of two turrets.

CFC Gunner (Upper seat, with bubble view in dorsal position):
250245
Controls the Aft Dorsal Turret. If the Bombardier allows control of the Foward Dorsal Turret, the CFC gunner can control both dorsal turrets. Therefore, any target above the plane, aft of the nose could be engaged by up to 6 50cal MGs (BBB/BA). On the level, or just above level, there are issues with prop arcs and the tail. We could, for gaming purposes, consider complete 360 degree arcs. However, it depends on who is allowing whom to control which turrets. You can't fire the front dorsal turret at two targets.

Left/Right Gunners:
250247
Each of the Left/Right Gunners could control both ventral turrets on their side of the plane, though normally they share control of the Aft Ventral Turret. They sit with bubble canopies in the aft fuselage, so there are issues with what they can see. Also, you can't engage more than one target each, and the Left/Right Gunners can't use the Forward Ventral turret if the Bombardier is using it. The Left/Right Gunners could also control the tail gun, if the Tail Gunner allowed control. Not sure under what conditions the side gunners could see targets that the Tail Gunner couldn't, but the option was available.

Tail Gunner:
250248
Controls the Tail gun. Depending on the version of plane, a target to the rear would be hit by: one 20mm cannon and two 50cals; two 50cals; or three 50cals. Although the Tail Gunner could allow the Side Gunners to use his guns, don't see that being as useful as allowing the Tail Gunner to use that rear Ventral Turret occassionally. According to technical manuals, it didn't happen.

250249

This thing is a nightmare.

Bobsalt
06-27-2018, 20:50
I feel foolish even asking this question, given the amount of work you've done, but just in case... have you seen this site?

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/b-29-remote-control-gunnery-system.9302/

Tokhuah
06-27-2018, 20:55
That looks crazy to manage. I am trying to imagine how this configuration would interact with the crew card... On the upside, the B-29 could actually have enough going on to make it an interesting bomber to pilot.

It is going to be a couple of weeks before I fly the thing anyway. I just destroyed my paint job with a varnish mishap that has never happened before... :cry:

OldGuy59
06-27-2018, 21:50
I feel foolish even asking this question, given the amount of work you've done, but just in case... have you seen this site?

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/b-29-remote-control-gunnery-system.9302/

Just found that site, trying to find out the depression angle of the remote turrets. I don't think there is one. So, although the turrets could fire 90+ degrees upward (dorsal turrets)/downward (ventral turrets), they couldn't depress by any amount. So, no firing at targets below/above centerline. This means you can't use dorasl turrets to fire at lower targets, nor ventral turrets to fire at higher targets. No overlap, except gravity drop, I suspect.

And, the tail gunner couldn't control the aft ventral! Darn! Changed the above to correct that.

Being an ex-Naval Gunner (Fire Control Man - radar controlled targeting), and an Air Force Radar Technician (Acquisition, tracking and targeting radars), the below diagram is so cool:
250250

They had this figured out with analog computers, one for each of five sights in the plane. So, even if they were using different turrets, the computer figured all this stuff out to hit the target.

flash
06-27-2018, 23:01
Great image Mike... found this, shows who can operate what gun wise, looks like the side boys can operate the tail gun too !

http://www.twinbeech.com/images/TURRETS/cfc/CFC%20systemcontrol1.JPG

Bobsalt
06-28-2018, 04:00
Great image Mike... found this, shows who can operate what gun wise, looks like the side boys can operate the tail gun too !

http://www.twinbeech.com/images/TURRETS/cfc/CFC%20systemcontrol1.JPG

I saw this image last night, and was thinking about it. Does this give adequate information about who controlled what set of guns? If so, I have an idea.

Naharaht
06-28-2018, 12:49
What would like to know is how the gunners could see aircraft directly below them. The blister gunners could see off to the side and below, the nose gunner could probably see some space in front and below but there does not appear to have been a sighting station underneath the aircraft.

OldGuy59
06-28-2018, 12:56
What would like to know is how the gunners could see aircraft directly below them. The blister gunners could see off to the side and below, the nose gunner could probably see some space in front and below but there does not appear to have been a sighting station underneath the aircraft.

Yeah, that bothers me a bit, too. However, it must have been possible to get a 90 degree down view with the sight in the blister. May not have been comfortable, but possible.

I think I've come up with a partial solution. The firing arcs and guns do not change. They are immutable. So, a card need only reflect that. Same with the management card. The crew were in such positions and training, that it isn't likely that gunners would move outside of their pressurized areas easily, so that could restrict moving people around too much (at least within a scenario, or single combat session). The aft gunners could easily change around in their section, but not to the nose or tail (at least not in a few seconds, anyway).

Give me a bit to pump out the cards. The hard part is the house rules on how many turrets will bear on a target, during a game. Then, the fun begins...

Tokhuah
06-29-2018, 07:54
I am liking how this is developing!

Does anyone know where I can find 1/200 B-29 decals? I have a slightly damaged set (now out of print) but am always looking for options. I already checked AIM and Miscellaneous Miniatures.

UPDATE: I exchanged a few email with Kevin from Miscellaneous Miniatures and he is going to work up a decal sheet for the B-29. I also asked if he could include "Enola Gay" on the sheet. He said it will be two weeks to provide proofs, so I will let everyone know when I have them.

With all the great work being done in this thread it is a good time to fly big!

Naharaht
06-30-2018, 01:11
Since control of the guns was by a flicking some switches, with a healthy set of gunners just allocate turrets to targets each combat round. The 'fun' will start if any gunners are wounded.

OldGuy59
06-30-2018, 07:56
I am liking how this is developing!

Does anyone know where I can find 1/200 B-29 decals? I have a slightly damaged set (now out of print) but am always looking for options. I already checked AIM and Miscellaneous Miniatures.

UPDATE: I exchanged a few email with Kevin from Miscellaneous Miniatures and he is going to work up a decal sheet for the B-29. I also asked if he could include "Enola Gay" on the sheet. He said it will be two weeks to provide proofs, so I will let everyone know when I have them.

With all the great work being done in this thread it is a good time to fly big!

Enola Gay is a piece of cake, being a 'Silverplate' version. It only had a tail gun. All gun turrets, control computers and gunners were removed to save weight. Also, some armor was removed.

BobP
06-30-2018, 12:52
250326

250327

Here are two of my B-29's (AIM). I have a 3rd one that's need decals.

BobP
06-30-2018, 12:56
250328

here is a scan of a page from the OSPRY B-29 vs Ki 44. Says the nose gunner can control upper turret. It also says that they had 12 50 Cals. The front dorsal turret had 4 guns and the rest had 2 + 2 in the tail. Some models had a 20mm + 2 50's in the tail but later the 20mm was removed.

Teaticket
06-30-2018, 13:37
250326

250327

Here are two of my B-29's (AIM). I have a 3rd one that's need decals.

These should give your Ki-44s a run for their money.

Tokhuah
06-30-2018, 16:01
I have a test sheet for B-29 "White's Cargo" from Miscellaneous Miniatures. If anyone is interested in seeing the file to help verify that it will work please PM me with your email and I will send the pdf along with a link to see what the marking look like on the actual airplane.

Jager
07-01-2018, 09:40
250328

here is a scan of a page from the OSPRY B-29 vs Ki 44. Says the nose gunner can control upper turret. It also says that they had 12 50 Cals. The front dorsal turret had 4 guns and the rest had 2 + 2 in the tail. Some models had a 20mm + 2 50's in the tail but later the 20mm was removed.

I read about the 4 gun turret; it was supposedly rapidly replaced with a 2 gun, due to some issues. I haven't found the time frame for this.
Karl

BobP
07-01-2018, 12:42
The books says that the 20mm was deleted after certain blocks (?) at the 3 different plants that built the planes. It also said that the 4 guns were thought to be better for a frontal attack but they soon found that the 4 gun bullet dispersal was so great that 2 guns were just as good. I guess that change might have been the same time the 20mm was removed. Also from what the book says Boeing-Wichita/Bell-Atlanta and Martin-Omaha were the places the B-29's were built. I guess the Osprey B-29 book would have more info. Maybe a buy at Historicon.

Jager
07-01-2018, 12:47
The books says that the 20mm was deleted after certain blocks (?) at the 3 different plants that built the planes. It also said that the 4 guns were thought to be better for a frontal attack but they soon found that the 4 gun bullet dispersal was so great that 2 guns were just as good. I guess that change might have been the same time the 20mm was removed. Also from what the book says Boeing-Wichita/Bell-Atlanta and Martin-Omaha were the places the B-29's were built. I guess the Osprey B-29 book would have more info. Maybe a buy at Historicon.

If the 4 gun was no more effective than the 2 gun, I'd leave the rating B/A

Jager
07-01-2018, 12:51
OK, here we go:

B-29 stats

Deck: either V(b) (no 45 turns, reversals, and side slip is difficult)
which makes it 5% too fast, or take the XD deck, and enlarge it at 190%. This gives you the high speed,
and the slow is between max cruise and max fuel economy cruise.
Hits: 83!! Yeh this is a beast!
Guns: 2 dorsal turrets, B-B/B 360 level to high, with high only down the 6:00 line.
2 ventral turrets, B-B/B 360 low
1 tail turret, rear arc initially C-B-B/B-A, but later B-B/B or a few at B-B-B/B-A
Ceiling: 11
Climb: 8
Karl

OK; I made a major goof here. The Turrets are B/A and the tail is C-B/B or B/A or B-A/A.
2 7.62mm MGs or 1 12.5mm is an A; 4 or 2 is a B.
My brain was not with me that day :hmm:
Karl

milcoll73
07-01-2018, 16:08
The books says that the 20mm was deleted after certain blocks (?) at the 3 different plants that built the planes. It also said that the 4 guns were thought to be better for a frontal attack but they soon found that the 4 gun bullet dispersal was so great that 2 guns were just as good. I guess that change might have been the same time the 20mm was removed. Also from what the book says Boeing-Wichita/Bell-Atlanta and Martin-Omaha were the places the B-29's were built. I guess the Osprey B-29 book would have more info. Maybe a buy at Historicon.



ive got the ospray book from way back. ill dig it out for a perusal.

Tokhuah
07-01-2018, 17:25
Last call for B-29 decal preview/feedback prior to MM going to print. Reminder: I do not know how to post a pdf here so you will need to pm me with your email so I can send the file. Kevin approved sharing the file to check accuracy in case anyone was concerned.

OldGuy59
07-01-2018, 17:36
Last call for B-29 decal preview/feedback prior to MM going to print. Reminder: I do not know how to post a pdf here so you will need to pm me with your email so I can send the file. Kevin approved sharing the file to check accuracy in case anyone was concerned.
Can you save the file as a '.png,? Then, you could post that.

BobP
07-02-2018, 14:49
Scott I have my set for the B-29 I got from Dave (AIM) when I got the planes but nose art might be a good thing.

250538

How's this for some nose art ?

OldGuy59
07-02-2018, 15:25
Scott I have my set for the B-29 I got from Dave (AIM) when I got the planes but nose art might be a good thing.

250538

How's this for some nose art ?

So, if you have actual decals, and a color scheme you are planning to use, it would be helpful to let me know the unit and crew. That way, I could do more than put 'Unknown' on the cards, should I ever get around to doing them.

Spent this holiday AM ripping a deck off the back of a buddy's house. Some of it came apart in my hands, turning into sawdust on contact. Way past time to replace the death trap.

Tokhuah
07-02-2018, 16:09
OK, I had to do this at work where I have Adobe Pro. The markings are for the 8th plane from the top, linked here: White's Cargo (http://www.markstyling.com/b29s_wwll_7.htm)

Following is a draft decal sheet. The roundel by itself would be duplicated on the sheet for the wings and the roundel+36 would be mirrored as well as the M/36 and the big M. Please provide feedback ASAP:
250540

BobP
07-03-2018, 13:12
I have to check but DOC was with a weather squadron, after the war I think, and all the planes were named after the 7 dwarfs. I have to do some more checking.

BobP
07-03-2018, 13:14
https://www.b29doc.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/doc-in-desert.jpg

Some info I just found on DOC. Not a weather squadron but radar calibration unit. Unit was known as the Seven Dwarfs.

OldGuy59
07-09-2018, 14:04
What do we think of this for the Plane card?

251412
Edit: Adjusted Firing Arcs to match the Management card
Re-Edit: Adjusted Turret 1 to reflect the predominant configuration of the B-29A version. Cannon removed from the tail turret image.

Background courtesy of Google Earth, coast of Japan, south of Tokyo.

Jager
07-09-2018, 15:59
Looks good to me.
:thumbsup:
Karl

OldGuy59
07-09-2018, 17:57
And the Management Card for this monstrosity:
250940
Edit: Changed the front firing arc indicator on the nose to match the 360 degree above coloring on the stats box and the Plane card.

The above Plane card has been adjusted to match the firing arcs I adjusted to get the Management card to look a bit more organized. Please note the red and green lines in the central stats box. Red lines are priority control, with green lines allowable control. The gunners in the rear fuselage can swap positions, but the Nose and Tail gunners cannot. None of the aircrew can swap or cross employ, with the exception of the pilot and co-pilot (obviously). There could be some Ace Skill cards with emergency crew positions, if desired (Emergency Pilot from any of the Bombadier, Flight Engineer, Navigator, or Radio Operator; Emergency Gunner using the Radar Operator in the rear fuselage).

Suggestions for making these cards better, or more easily understood?

Tokhuah
07-09-2018, 17:57
Looks great Mike, can't wait to use it. Perfect timing too because these are now available: B-29 Decals at Miscellaneous Miniatures (https://miscmini.com/shop?keywords=b-29&olsPage=products%2Fb29-19thbg-1-slash-200-scale-decals)

OldGuy59
07-09-2018, 18:00
Looks great Mike, can't wait to use it. Perfect timing too because these are now available: B-29 Decals at Miscellaneous Miniatures (https://miscmini.com/shop?keywords=b-29&olsPage=products%2Fb29-19thbg-1-slash-200-scale-decals)
Check that Plane card, if you've already downloaded it. I had to adjust the firing arcs a bit on the Management card, so there was a change to the Plane card.

OldGuy59
07-09-2018, 18:04
And another edit. Why can't I see these mistakes before I upload the images? Old eyes?

Naharaht
07-09-2018, 22:35
That looks very good, Mike. :thumbsup: My only suggestion would be to slightly widen the firing arc for the tail gunner and as you have drawn in the 20mm cannon make the damage CB/B.

OldGuy59
07-10-2018, 08:36
That looks very good, Mike. :thumbsup: My only suggestion would be to slightly widen the firing arc for the tail gunner and as you have drawn in the 20mm cannon make the damage CB/B.

I finally found a (reasonably) decent quality drawing of a B-29, and even that needed work, as it was a half-split top/bottom drawing. There are, at least, three versions of B-29 tail gun configuration. There are two forward dorsal turret configurations (2 and 4 MGs), and there is the Silverplate version, with only the tail gun turret.

So, I went with the 'common' configuration, as I conjectured it, for the card. Now that I have a template, I have a starting place for other versions. Paint up a plane, with unit and crew info, and perhaps a card for it will magically appear.

OldGuy59
07-20-2018, 08:48
Another pub crawl through the Museum library yielded a drawing of the B29B:

251393
This drawing shows the triple .50 MG tail turret, and the radome for the gun laying radar on the tail gun. Not sure if the drawing, the scan, or the Photoshopping messed up the dorsal turrets (might not have been installed?), but they can be fixed, if/when a card is needed.

PS: The B-29B was the follow-on adaptation of the Silverplate version. All the armament except the tail turret was removed, and with the reduced weight and drag, the speed increased (The weight saved by removing the gun system increased the top speed from 357 mph to 364 mph (575 km/h to 586 km/h). Source: Wikipedia - Boeing B-29 Superfortress Variants (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-29_Superfortress_variants)). This version was used at lower altitude, with limited opposition, so the guns weren't as useful.

OldGuy59
07-20-2018, 21:24
Redid the B-29A version above, to match the four MG turret that was supposed to be on all B-29As. Removed the cannon in the image, so it reflects the dual MG turret indicated.

Sorry about the inconvenience.

Tokhuah
07-21-2018, 11:11
No inconvenience, I appreciate you diligence regarding this. I just received my B-29 from AiM so to the workbench!

Teaticket
07-21-2018, 11:21
Very nice! Looks like AIM will be getting an order sooner than I had planned. :money::minis::clap: