U. S. Navy Camels

[Coog]

I found the following which mentions four U. S. Navy Sopwith Camel squadrons:

United States Marine Aviation - World War I

The First Marine Aviation Force was organized in Miami on June 16, 1918. Four land-based air squadrons were set up and provisionally named A, B, C and D. But later they were renamed 7, 8, 9 and 10. Once in France, the 7th and 8th Marine Aviation squadrons were located in the village of Oye and the 9th and 10th Marine Aviation squadrons were located at La Fresne. The 1st and 2nd Squadrons were located in St. Inglevert. The 3rd and 4th Squadrons were located in Campagne. These four squadrons were US Navy squadrons and flew Sopwith Camels. The headquarters for the Northern Bombing Group and its eight squadrons was temporarily located at a chateau in St. Inglevert, but it was later moved to the village of Autingues, next to La Fresne.

I've never seen anything else on these four squadrons. Has anyone else?

[Dom S]

Sounds erroneous to me - the US navy acquired a number of Camels in 1919, but I've seen no references to any during the war, and I'm pretty sure 4 squadrons' worth would show up somewhere - especially when there's a book that lists pretty much every Camel ever produced by serial number and units it served with....

Additionally the US navy / marine formation was a bomber one - it was renamed the Northern Bombing Group, so I can't see 50% of its squadrons being fighters. Will have a rummage, but I seem to recall the 1st squadron had some kind of Caproni type, and didn't operate at all - their crews instead assisting on British HP squadrons.

http://www.wwvets.com/WW1_Aviation.asp - See "Seth Llewellyn Baker" entry.

Bingo - that's what I was after: http://navsource.org/archives/01/pdf/015706p.pdf
See third page onwards - 1st - 4th squadrons were the night wing with Caproni 3s, but dodgy Fiat engines meant they scarcely saw action - replacement engines and Handley-Page 400 substitutes were being sourced by November 1918, but just too late for any significant action. 7th-10th squadrons were the day wing with De Havillands. There was no 5 and 6, as they'd cut down from 6 day and 6 night to 4 of each due to lack of aircraft.

[Ed2]

ee: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Talbot

But he flew a DH4.

Medal of Honor citation
Rank and organization: Second Lieutenant, U.S. Marine Corps. Born: January 6, 1897, South Weymouth, Mass. Appointed from: Connecticut.

Citation:

For exceptionally meritorious service and extraordinary heroism while attached to Squadron C, 1st Marine Aviation Force, in France. 2d Lt. Talbot participated in numerous air raids into enemy territory. On 8 October 1918, while on such a raid, he was attacked by 9 enemy scouts, and in the fight that followed shot down an enemy plane. Also, on 14 October 1918, while on a raid over Pittham, Belgium, 2d Lt. Talbot and another plane became detached from the formation on account of motor trouble and were attacked by 12 enemy scouts. During the severe fight that followed, his plane shot down 1 of the enemy scouts. His observer was shot through the elbow and his gun jammed. 2d Lt. Talbot maneuvered to gain time for his observer to clear the jam with one hand, and then returned to the fight. The observer fought until shot twice, once in the stomach and once in the hip and then collapsed, 2d Lt. Talbot attacked the nearest enemy scout with his front guns and shot him down. With his observer unconscious and his motor failing, he dived to escape the balance of the enemy and crossed the German trenches at an altitude of 50 feet, landing at the nearest hospital to leave his observer, and then returning to his aerodrome

[Dom S]

Earlier date Ed - 1st Marine Aviation Force wasn't 1st squadron, but the predecessor to the day wing of the Northern bombing Group - A-D squadron USMC became 7-10 Squadron, northern bombing group, still equipped with DH4s, and some DH9s due to a shortage of aircraft. 1st - 4th squadrons were US navy, rather than marines, and formed the new night bombing wing.

[Pooh]

I have a link somewhere that tells about them. From memory, there were 4 US marine squadrons who flew a mixture of DH4s & DH9s. The navy had 4 squadrons of camels. Both the navy & marines flew with the British while the army squadrons flew mostly with the French.

I've read the account of the marine medal of honor winners. It is a hair raising event in which a lone DH4 with engine trouble had to fight off numerous German scouts while returning from bombing a rail yard in Belgium. The account says the attackers were DVIIs and that several were shot down. The DH4 which was shot to pieces with a wounded observer managed to fly accross no-mans land at 50 ft and crash near a hospital. Both men survived.

Another thing I found is that when the marines got to France, their planes got lost (or rerouted) in shipping but they did have a number of liberty engines. They gained experience by letting flight crew fly as part of British squadrons. Later they traded some liberty engines, giving 2 liberty engines to the British if they got 1 back with a DH4 wrapped around it.

I'll see if I can locate the link.

Pooh

[Dom S]

This one I'd guess:

http://www.usaww1.com/United-States-Marine-Aviation.php4

The one that I posted further up is far more comprehensive looking, official, and makes more sense:

http://navsource.org/archives/01/pdf/015706p.pdf (3rd page onwards.)

I can't say I trust the Camel reference in that first link one little bit - it contradicts other sources, makes no sense (why Camels in a strategic bomber wing...?) and doesn't fit with any records of Camel deliveries (which are scarily comprehensive thanks to the research done in the Camel File in particular.) It also lists no references, which is always a concern.

Dom.

[Pooh]

Lt David Ingalls USN was the navy's 1st war ace and did it in a camel but he appears to have been flying with the British 223 sqdrn at the time.

Pooh

[Dom S]

True on both counts (the first two pages of the PDF I linked to are about him) and doesn't affect my position at all - he was with a British Camel squadron, not a US navy one - the navy's 1st - 4th squadrons mainly flew nothing at all, but what aircraft they did have were Capronis, cos they were night bomber squadrons....

[Ed2]

True on both counts (the first two pages of the PDF I linked to are about him) and doesn't affect my position at all - he was with a British Camel squadron, not a US navy one - the navy's 1st - 4th squadrons mainly flew nothing at all, but what aircraft they did have were Capronis, cos they were night bomber squadrons....

Those U.S. Navy pilots that "flew nothing at all" must have been a courageous bunch.

[Dom S]

I'm guessing there wasn't much flight pay - according to that article the night bombing wing finished the war with 88 pilots and 6 bombers, or 2 if you only count the airworthy ones.... :eek:

[Charlie3]

Those U.S. Navy pilots that "flew nothing at all" must have been a courageous bunch.And boy were their arms tired after each sortie:rolleyes: