Official Mitsubish Ki-21 "Sally" Painting Thread

[miscmini]

1/200 scale Ki-21 from Armaments in Miniature. I primed the model, sprayed it with aerosol aluminum paint and then added Vallejo Model Color Military Green Mottling. Decals are from Miscellaneous Miniatures, LLC. Model is finished to depict one assigned to 1 Sentai, 2 Chutai, crew unknown.

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[Caveman]

Nice workmanship. Really nice. Thanks for the decal company info too.

[Blackronin]

One more excellent plane!
You are nailing them all!

[Teaticket]

Another great plane Kevin.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

One of 3 from 1st Chutai, 60th Sentai.

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1/200 model from AIM, decals again supplied by Guntruck and props from Aerodrome Accesories.

[Marechallannes]

Another great paintjob, Neil. :thumbsup:

[Teaticket]

Great looking new Japanese fleet Neil! I'll have to get some of these as well as the others. Thanks. :money::money::money:

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

I have 2 Claudes and 2 Petes plus 2 Nell and the Japanese are all done. Then it's onto the Dutch and US Buffaloes plus the next batch of National Chinese, CR 32s, P43's and some Hawks.

[Caveman]

Brilliant work! Do you have pictures of the others?

[OldGuy59]

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A good top-down image might help?

[Stumptonian]

Another great paint job, Neil. I have never seen this particular camouflage - very well done.
:thumbsup:

[OldGuy59]

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Close?

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Better than close that is spot on.


Close?

[OldGuy59]

Neil,
You didn't say which version, but you could just not use the waist guns, if you didn't want the second version.

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[Edit: Added Cockpit MG, and used Axis colors on Unit/Crew boxes.]

Management card to follow. With 5 crew, the waist gun positions will be either left or right not both per turn.

[Marechallannes]

Nice work with the plane card, Mike. :thumbsup:

[OldGuy59]

For Kevin's Plane...
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Management Cards are in this album: WWII Japanese Bombers (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/album.php?albumid=3582)

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

Nicely done Mike. Any chance of 1 to go with the Nell?

[Teaticket]

First Sally from Mike's first card above. AIM model and a mix of Miscmini 3rd Chutai 7th Sentai and I-94 decals.

I'm really loving painting Japanese as there are almost endless color schemes to do.

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[Teaticket]

Second Sally. AIM model and a mix of Miscmini and I-94 decals.

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[Teaticket]

Third and last Sally. AIM model and a mix of Miscmini and I-94 decals.

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[Stumptonian]

Peter your last two posts do not show pics

[Teaticket]

Peter your last two posts do not show pics

Strange, I saw them when I originally posted them? Ok, should be up now.

[Stumptonian]

Yep they are showing now.
Nice work.
:thumbsup:

[Teaticket]

Yep they are showing now.
Nice work.
:thumbsup:

Thanks, and thanks for letting me know the photos went rogue.

[Flying Helmut]

Super Sallys, Peter! :clap::clap::clap:

REP!

[Jager]

Nice Sallys, Peter. Will they be at Cold Wars?
Karl

[BobP]

WOW I don't know if you want mine flying next to yours. They are great. I think I have to do some touch up on them.

[Caveman]

Beautiful job Peter. I like the Japanese planes too, they have personality - kind of like WW1 planes. Please tell us how you achieved the affect on #3.

[Teaticket]

Nice Sallys, Peter. Will they be at Cold Wars?
Karl

Yes they will Karl. They'll be in the Khalkin Gol game.

[Teaticket]

Beautiful job Peter. I like the Japanese planes too, they have personality - kind of like WW1 planes. Please tell us how you achieved the affect on #3.

I made what I would call a heavy wash. A bit more paint in the mix than a normal wash. Just keep adding and moving it around until you get to where you want to be.

[mikeemagnus]

Beauties Peter - really classy Sallys - REP inbound (working again now :) )

[BobP]

Not up to the other paint jobs here but here is one of mine. I have another 3. 1 needs some touch up and the other 2 need to be decaled.

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AIM model and MISCMINI (Kevin's) decals. Photos bring out the extra work that need be done on them.

[Teaticket]

Nice Bob, another lovely target!

[BobP]

Not up to your paint jobs but as you say something to shoot at. I have 1 other that looks like that and 1 without the streaks. Then I have one more that will be marked with the HQ unit markings but in a different paint scheme. I should get 2 more next week and they will have the HQ (blue) markings. Yours are yellow so we will have blue (HQ), red and yellow. I don't thing we would have enough room if we put all the planes on the table.

[Teaticket]

Not up to your paint jobs but as you say something to shoot at. I have 1 other that looks like that and 1 without the streaks. Then I have one more that will be marked with the HQ unit markings but in a different paint scheme. I should get 2 more next week and they will have the HQ (blue) markings. Yours are yellow so we will have blue (HQ), red and yellow. I don't thing we would have enough room if we put all the planes on the table.

We probably won't use all our planes like last year. As long as we have enough for all the players that show up and I'm sure we will!

[Dak21]

My first of five Sallys on deck. Obviously inspired by some of the others posted here.

I’ll be doing two with an aluminum base, and two with a pale green base. There really are so many choices with Japanese army aircraft. I was watching a video from the war in China, and as the photographer scans across a formation of Sallys in flight, there are multiple different schemes flying in the same group.

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[Teaticket]

Nice one Dave. By the time winter is over you'll have a good sized Japanese force! I won't have to bring any planes with me when I visit.

[Dak21]

That’s the plan Mr. Landry!

[Dak21]

Here are a couple more Sallys. I think I like the more course pattern better. In order to keep my sanity while painting these time consuming patterns, I would hide various stick figure shapes in the pattern and then paint around them. There are battling dinosaurs, people, bunny rabbits, kangaroos and other things tucked away. 2nd Chutai, 98th Sentai.

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Your constructive comments are always welcome as I am still learning the ropes. The one with the small pattern has a light rust weathering, amd the other is just off the line. I left the windows glossy, but hit the rest with a matt finish.

[Teaticket]

Your hidden art work, is it meant to distract attacking pilots or give them a target within a target? ;)

[Dak21]

Definitely for purposes of enemy distraction, and thus enhanced survival ��

[OldGuy59]

Guys,
I've found an interesting drawing for the Ki-21:

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This could be a Ki-21 1b, but note that this version has six mgs:
A nose position;
A dorsal position;
A port waist position (just before the access door);
A ventral tail position (just aft of the access door);
Not shown but there, a starboard waist position (behind the access door, so positioned further down the aircraft than the port position); and
A tail stinger MG (remotely operated by the dorsal gunner?).

No, I don't have the legend for this drawing, sorry.

If this drawing is accurate, we are missing an arc on the Plane Card above.

PS: The Wikipedia description of the Ki-21 Ib lists that there were five positions, but included the tail stinger. The IIb introduced the dorsal turret, so mostly internal changes (bigger bomb bay, engines... Hmmm... larger tail surfaces?) from the Ib to the IIa.

[Teaticket]

Guys,
I've found an interesting drawing for the Ki-21:

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This could be a Ki-21 1b, but note that this version has six mgs:
A nose position;
A dorsal position;
A port waist position (just before the access door);
A ventral tail position (just aft of the access door);
Not shown but there, a starboard waist position (behind the access door, so positioned further down the aircraft than the port position); and
A tail stinger MG (remotely operated by the dorsal gunner?).

No, I don't have the legend for this drawing, sorry.

If this drawing is accurate, we are missing an arc on the Plane Card above.

PS: The Wikipedia description of the Ki-21 Ib lists that there were five positions, but included the tail stinger. The IIb introduced the dorsal turret, so mostly internal changes (bigger bomb bay, engines... Hmmm... larger tail surfaces?) from the Ib to the IIa.

Missing the tail stinger arc? Probably shouldn't be very wide as being controlled by the dorsal gunner it couldn't have been very accurate.

Not sure which Sally the AIM version is other than not the IIb as it has no turret.

[Dak21]

I wonder if they are including the dorsal gunner and the tail stinger together as a “position”? It’s pretty clear from the drawing that both guns are there and that the plane has six weapons.

They must have had some sort of remote optical site for the tail gun. The turrets on our B29s were setup that way and were pretty deadly.

[OldGuy59]

I wonder if they are including the dorsal gunner and the tail stinger together as a “position”? It’s pretty clear from the drawing that both guns are there and that the plane has six weapons.

They must have had some sort of remote optical site for the tail gun. The turrets on our B29s were setup that way and were pretty deadly.

The tail stinger was controlled by the dorsal gunner, if my research means anything. I haven't included it in the firing arcs, actually. The B-29 remote turrets were much better controlled, including air speed, balistics and parallax compensations. The tail stinger was not that sophisticated.

Also, now that I examine the cut-away drawing above more closely, I see the 'cockpit window' MG, on the far side of the cockpit, aft of the co-pilot. So, seven MGs?

[Dak21]

You’re right, there is another MG tucked in there. This thing is bristling with little MGs!

I’m sure the B29 MGs were quite sophisticated. I am currently reading “Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors”, and was really impressed how superior the US fire control systems on ships were.

[Dak21]

Here is my fourth, and for now, final Sally. There are still some other schemes I’d like to paint, but it’ll have to be later. This was another really time consuming job. The Vallejo paints are for air brushes, so everything takes 3 or more coats, including the camo scheme. I wish I could get these colors in a paint with some more pigment in it!

Would love to hear any constructive criticisms as I know for sure I still have a long way to go.

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[Teaticket]

Great looking target Dave. Is it bombing the P-40s below that are being assembled?

More pigment paint...I'd take the paints you like to AC Moore and match them up with a craft paint as close as possible. They usually have a great selection to choose from.

[Dak21]

Hey Peter. Thanks for the idea on paint. I’ll check that out next time I’m there.

Those P40s are certainly future adversaries of the Sallys. I’m working on what I need for a diverse CBI campaign. That seems to capture my interest the most.

[OldGuy59]

Based on discussions with the G3M2 Nell, there was an additional MG in the cockpit, behind the pilots, used by the navigator or radio operator. It was moved from window to window, not a fixed installation. Using the drawing above, and the other thread's discussions (Link: Official Mitsubishi G3M Rikko "Nell" Painting Thread - Post #23 (https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?20411-Official-Mitsubishi-G3M-Rikko-quot-Nell-quot-Painting-Thread&p=517560&viewfull=1#post517560)), I extrapolated the below cockpit arcs:

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[Edit: Used Axis grey on Unit/Crew box.]

Note, I haven't included the tail stinger arc. I am going to consider it the same arc, just not using a blind spot that would usually appear with a dorsal position. The tail stinger would cover that part of the arc, so the two guns are morphed into a single arc. If this causes concern, we could go to a 7 arc configuration, and put in the blind spot for the #5 arc. I am thinking of following fire, or the Aim bonus for this, as the gunner has to switch guns, even if at the same target. You guys decide which way we go.

[Dak21]

Mike. I think that is an innovative way to simplify the function of gunner #5. Especially since he would not be able to operate both guns at the same time. If #5 has to switch guns, I would not give him the aim bonus.

I wish I could paint my last Unpainted Sally to match that card. I just can’t consistently get lines that fine, even with a 20/0 brush. I miscalculate too often, pushing the brush forward, thus making too thick of a line.

Thanks for all the awesome work on these cards!

[OldGuy59]

Plane and Management cards for these planes are redone, and in my WWII Japanese Bomber album.

Link: WWII Japanese Bombers (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/album.php?albumid=3582)

[Dak21]

Here is my first complete 2 Engine Bomber card. These are at TON of work compared to fighters. Once again, thanks to Mike for some coaching.

I did not put the shading onside the arcs as I typically see. For these complex arcs, I thought it looks better without them.

What do you guys think?

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[OldGuy59]

Here is my first complete 2 Engine Bomber card. These are at TON of work compared to fighters. Once again, thanks to Mike for some coaching.

I did not put the shading onside the arcs as I typically see. For these complex arcs, I thought it looks better without them.

What do you guys think?

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Nice first attempt.

Shading on the arcs is a preference, and on a busy card it could be distracting. I try to put the shading on a layer under the plane image, to keep the plane looking sharp.

I might consider a small stroke (outline) on the individual firing arc dots, though, as that is where the range ruler goes to measure shots. Make them as distinct as possible. Keep your Index at the top of the card in Blue and the same size as the Maneuver Card lines, and the Arrow at the base of the card the same size as the Maneuver Card, as well. If the color blends into the background, you could put a white/grey stroke or outer glow on the arrow to ensure visibiliy.

[Teaticket]

Nice card Dave! Looks good to me. Nice large firing data for old eyes to actually be able to read.:thumbsup:

[Dak21]

Those are very good suggestions Mike. I’ll make those changes.

Peter, I definitely went with larger icons to make it easier to see. It doesn’t look just like the stock cards, but playability is most important to me.

[schoon]

Impressive work. Thank you!

[Dak21]

Here is another one of my Sally cards with two of the three suggestions for improvement from Mike. I could not get a Stroke onto the center dots for the Gunner Arcs for some reason. That option was greyed out when I selected the dots. I was able to do a white stroke around the top center and bottom arrow. This drew them out very nicely.

One more Sally to draw, and I am back to painting! It's been a couple weeks and I am anxious to get back to it. From now on, I'll try to do the cards as I paint the planes.

What do you think of this one?

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[Teaticket]

Super. Looks just like a plane I've seen.

[OldGuy59]

Here is another one of my Sally cards with two of the three suggestions for improvement from Mike. I could not get a Stroke onto the center dots for the Gunner Arcs for some reason. That option was greyed out when I selected the dots. I was able to do a white stroke around the top center and bottom arrow. This drew them out very nicely.

One more Sally to draw, and I am back to painting! It's been a couple weeks and I am anxious to get back to it. From now on, I'll try to do the cards as I paint the planes.

What do you think of this one?

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With the arcs on the rear of the plane, try to do a 10% fill on the Dorsal #5 arc. Place it under all the other arcs, but the idea is to show that it extends into parts of #3 and #4. See how it looks, and if that doesn't work for you, don't use it. Or reverse it, and put the fill only under arcs #3 and 4. Play with it to find what works for you.

If you can't put a stroke on an extisting dot, draw a new one, with a stroke and fill. If that doesn't appeal, you could draw an elipse, with only a stroke (no fill) to highlight the underlying dot. Either way would highlight the dot, and distinguish it from the arc color. There are lots of ways to achieve an effect. You just have to find one that works for you and your software. Try to keep the arc dots a consistent size, too (Dot on arc #1 looks bigger than the others, and much bigger than #s 3, 4, 5, and 6).

Sometimes, I can't, for whatever reason, get an object to co-operate (color change, size, stroke thickness, etc...). If that happens, I go get a similar object from another source (within the current file, or another file), and copy it. Delete the unco-operative object, and continue with the borrowed one. Change colors or size as needed, whatever gets the result I want.

Don't be afraid to change the intensity of your background, too. I do add adjustment layers to the background to lighten, or darken, them, if it makes the plane and arcs more visible. This can be a subtle amount, or something drastic, depending on the need.

I noticed that you didn't put in the Blue Aircraft Center (or card Center) dot, nor the Blue Tailing dot. These aren't used too often, but they should be there.

The above are just tweeks on an otherwise very good card. If you can use it in a game, and it works for you, it is all gravy.

[OldGuy59]

... These are at TON of work compared to fighters.

...

Yup. They are a lot different, with much more detail. And, you have to do two of them; a Plane card; and a Management card. Each having their own peculiarities.

[Naharaht]

A good card, Dave. :thumbsup:


My understanding is that there were five crew members in a Sally. So, did the same crew member use guns 3, 4 and 6, or did one crewman use guns 3 and 4 and another use 5 and 6?

[OldGuy59]

A good card, Dave. :thumbsup:


My understanding is that there were five crew members in a Sally. So, did the same crew member use guns 3, 4 and 6, or did one crewman use guns 3 and 4 and another use 5 and 6?

Link: Mitsubishi KI-21 Ib 'Sally' Management Card (https://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/album.php?albumid=3582&attachmentid=279828)

Depending on the version, up to seven crew.

PS: The #2 MG was operated by the Radio Operator or Navigator, and was not in fixed positions. It was fired by hand, out of side windows.

[Dak21]

Here is the last of my Sallys with a few improvements as suggested by Mike. I'll make some of the others on my next bomber card series.

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