On Fire

[KirkH]

I love WoW but I find the fire rules are probably what leave me the most puzzled. My frustration is in the fact I don't remember ever hearing about fires regularly going out in WWI airplanes. A WWI airplane is canvas, wood, dope, fuel, and ammo - all of which are highly flammable. If it ever catches fire, chances are it's not going to extinguish itself, it's going to get worse. I know the automatic extinguishing of flames was probably added to improve playability because if they didn't automatically go out, a fire card is essentially the end of the game. Still, it seems odd that flames automatically always go out. Of course if you get "flamed" late in the game, you may not have enough hit points left to survive the three damage cards, but if it happens early it can turn out to be little more than a nuisance. I played a game a couple days ago where the three damage cards drawn were a 0, 0, and 1 respectively. I'm just wondering if anyone has any house rules regarding fires.

[Desaix]

Juste like you I found this strange...

In Canvas Eagle the game allows the slides to the sides to be able to extinguish some fire in the plane... I also found it strange but maybe it has some reality...

I guess it could work with some of the later plane models made with more wood or metal...

[SHVAK]

Putting out a fire was rare - but there are occurrences of it happening. In real life setting yourself ablaze is almost as bad as exploding - but you would try to land if you were close to the ground. Thus the 3 turn WoW fire is a bit of a fudge. I would have prefered that the game used a random fire turn length - but this would necessitate using dice.

[Charlie3]

A WWI airplane is canvas, wood, dope, fuel, and ammo - all of which are highly flammable. If it ever catches fire, chances are it's not going to extinguish itself, it's going to get worse...it seems odd that flames automatically always go out...I'm just wondering if anyone has any house rules regarding fires.
I'm glad to hear someone else noticed this "Game-ish" rule right away. When I started the WoW League here, the first thing I did was change the fire and smoke rules. Here they are as printed in our handbook;
Smoke: When a plane draws a Smoke Special Damage card there is some sort of damage to it’s engine.
-Once a plane starts Smoking it will continue to do so for the rest of the game unless another special effect changes the situation.
-Place a Smoke counter on the plane card or model base so that all players can see the effect.
-The player must draw 1 “A” damage card at the beginning of each Game Turn after all maneuvers are selected.
-Damage Cards that have the Rudder Jam, Gun Jam, Smoke or Observer Incapacitated icons, or no Special Damage Icon at all, are returned to the deck.
-The Fire, Engine Damage, and Explosion cards all have their normal results.
-The Pilot of a smoking plane may not use the Tailing Skill.

Fire: When a plane draws a Fire Special Damage card it has caught fire.
-Once a plane is on fire will continue to be on fire until it runs out of damage points, Crashes, Explodes, or by some lucky chance the fire goes out.
-Place a Fire counter on the plane card or model base so that all players can see the effect.
-The player must draw 1 “A” damage card at the beginning of each Game Turn after all maneuvers are selected.
-The damage amount on the card is immediately applied to the plane.
-The Fire, Gun Jam, Rudder Jam, and Observer Incapacitated Special Damages are ignored.
-Engine Damage and Explosion Special Damages have their normal results.
-The Smoke Special damage means the Fire has gone out and the plane is now only Smoking, exchange the Fire counter for a Smoke counter, and revert to the Smoking rule.
-A Pilot of a plane that is on fire may not use the Tailing Skill.

We also have rules governing landing a plane that is on fire to see if the pilot survives...Other than these two rules we MOSTLY play the game as written. Some of our players did not like this change at first but no one has asked to change it back yet, so this small piece of realisim can't be all bad.

[Desaix]

Great rules Charlie3 ! I will use some of that for sure...

[KirkH]

Charlie - I really like your ideas and will have to adopt them in my games as well. I like the fact there's still a small chance the fire can go out, although it's a much smaller chance than the 100% chance in the actual game.

[Desaix]

I had more thought about that...
I think it is important not to be too influenced by the movies fire effects (like in Flyboys)...
At 150/200 km/h the fire is not bursting and propagating with big flames... It would mostly be little flames coming from the engine or from leaking gas... Only the plane inside wood an canvas can take fire, too much wind outside...
So its is very possible for the fire to stop with fast dive for example I think...

[SHVAK]

Flyboys was very "Hollywood", especially those 16-G loops. Some of the on-fire sequences were not too bad IMP (using my military pilot expertise, 1 aircraft fire and 2 aircraft smoking references to comment upon). Any aircraft fire fuelled by petrol can go real ugly quickly - even with today's planes.

In WW2 a fast dive could put out the flames on some aircraft - the position and rate of the leak would also factor into the success chance. For WW1 planes, I don't think that the planes could build enough dive speed to put out a fire without falling apart - they would probably just act as a bellows and increase the flame rate.

From the concept presented - I just don't see how "engine smoke" could cause structural damage. Engine performance damage yes, engine/mount damage maybe, but certainly not structural.

I had thought of using dice to better address the fire situation, but I tried to avoid dice in any advanced form of play. It went something like - if smoking, roll 1D6 every turn. A result of 1-2 means that the smoke has cleared. A roll of 6 means that the plane catches on fire (and then takes damage). Whenever plane is on fire, also roll 1D6 every turn. A roll of 1 means that the fire reverts back to smoke - any other result you remain on fire.

Naturally, if on fire in a single engine plane, you cannot shoot, reload, fly straights or stalls and must play one-sideslip or dive every turn - since you need to keep the flames away from your hands, face and body.

[Desaix]

Ok, good to know... Nice to have real pilots with experience here hehe...

[KirkH]

I'm not influenced by Flyboys as much as every other book or article I've read. I don't remember ever seeing: "I fired a burst and he caught fire but after a few seconds the fire went out." A WWI aircraft is a flying bomb and I'd hazard a guess that few fires went out on their own. If a fire is big enough to do an "A" cards worth of damage each turn that means it's not small. Also, with any fire the pilots first priority is to get the plane on the ground. With the Wings of War rules as they currently are, if you get a fire card early on, you can almost ignore it since you know it'll go out in a few turns - and that is about as unrealistic as it gets.

[SHVAK]

KirkH

In any aerial emergency, a pilot's first priority (Pri 1) is to fly the plane, second priority (Pri 2) is to put the fire (emergency) out, third priority is to land (Pri 3).

For WW1 planes, its somewhat backwards because Pri 2 would likely only occur after you landed - I've only read of one instance where a fire was put out in the air.

For true realism best reflected in this game, KirkH is correct in that a dive card would need to be played each turn (Pri 3) and that a sideslip card be played to the keep flames/smoke away from the pilot (Pri 1). Take an A-damage card each turn in flight - if you draw any pilot wounded card you succumb to the flames and are killed. For that rare chance that a fire goes out in flight, perhaps if you draw a smoke card the fire goes out and the plane starts smoking.

Since for most players the playing surface is usually fixed (ie cannot fly off the map without losing), certain fudges to realism are sometimes welcome.

[Desaix]

Good, good, very useful insight SHVAK...

[LazyEyedPsycho]

SHVAK, I think the A damage card for the smoke rules is to see if the plane catches fire only. Since any results other than fire, engine damage & explosion are shuffled back into the deck it seems to me that the damage number is ignored. Also Charlie3 states in the fire entry that you apply the damage but there is no such entry in the smoke one. Just my take on his rules at any rate.

I'm gonna "borrow" these as my group has been lookiing to get rid of the explosion result... I might change it so you can only explode if you are smoking or on fire. Extra incentive to bug out and bring the crate home :p.

[SHVAK]

LZEP

C3s procedure could perhaps be reworded. Your version makes more sense - I read it differently.

If you're playing on a no-border map, you'll need some evasion bonus to help bug-out. Clouds, overdiving and Split-S are the best ways to shake off the enemy as you fly back to the relative safety of your own lines. Even WW1, the importance of altitude became known. Obviously, if on fire or smoking evading or escaping becomes tougher.

I've replaced the explosion card with "Draw 3x C-damage cards" instead. A "C-damage explosion card" drawn in this manner will cause the plane to explode.

[LazyEyedPsycho]

SHVAK

I like your idea, where do you get "C" damage cards?

[Charlie3]

SHVAK, I think the A damage card for the smoke rules is to see if the plane catches fire only. Since any results other than fire, engine damage & explosion are shuffled back into the deck it seems to me that the damage number is ignored. Also Charlie3 states in the fire entry that you apply the damage but there is no such entry in the smoke one. Just my take on his rules at any rate...
You got the idea! When the plane is smoking you are basically waiting for the other shoe to drop, but there is no real physical damage done to the plane so we don't count the numbers. You can't believe the relief it is to draw the SMOKE card after you are on FIRE. Recently I caught on fire, Two turns later I drew a SMOKE card, and thought I had a reprive, the next damage card I drew was FIRE again!!
It is common for our players to just head for the ground after a few turns of being on fire since they have a better chance of the pilot surviving if they land before running out of damage points instead of crashing.

[KirkH]

but there is no real physical damage done to the plane so we don't count the numbers.

Actually, that's not quite true. If you're smoking, either something is burning internally or you're leaking a fluid of some sort. In other words, whenever something other than exhaust is being emitted from your aircraft it's not a good or stable situation. There should actually be some sort of penalty for flying around smoking for any length of time. You're either losing water or fuel or oil so after a while the plane should probably be forced to glide. If that's something that's not considered possible within the timeframe of the game, there should be some roll at the end of the game (assuming the smoker survives) to determine if he makes it back to his lines/aerodrome/etc.

[usmc1855]

There are some very good points regarding Fire, Fire Damage and the duration of the Fire in this thread.

Two of the most attractive things about Wings of War, are the Miniature, and the games ease of playability (due in most part I think to the simplicity of the rules), therefore I have been hesitant to develop 'House Rules' since the rules provided seem to work so well. But... with regards to the duration of Fires, I think in our next games I'll run it with Fires burning until that aircraft draws a smoke card, at which time the Fire is considered out, but the plane smokes, or until the plane leaves the playing filed, lands or is destroyed. Of concern however is the amount of damage the Fire card usually inflicts each turn.

Let's consider the damage caused by the Fire. Drawing from the 'A' deck is likely to result in the plane being forced out of the fight, or destroyed very early in the gaming session, so how about drawing a 'B' damage card, vice the "A' card as prescribed for in the rules?

For Campaign games, I think these changes would be appropriate, but for quick, one time scenarios, the rules as written will probably suffice.

[Hjortfot]

When we play we do nothing about the fire because it is good as it is.

You draw a card every turn and every time the damage comes up you can "see" how much fire there is, like a 3,5,4 major fire problems might be bad, but a 0,0,1 a misplaced fuse not so much too argue about, the matches we play they go on more than 3 turns so I think the rule is good as it is.

I draw a fire card almost every match, but "knock on wood" never ever a explosion card.

I think the game is good as it is,we haven´t come up with so much houserules...yet.

The biggest problem is to remember the hidden damage you get, like pilot,engine,left and right rudder.

Over and out.

[SHVAK]

LAzy Eye Psycho: C-damage cards (and D) come in the Burning Drachens box.

[Pope]

There are some very good points regarding Fire, Fire Damage and the duration of the Fire in this thread.

Two of the most attractive things about Wings of War, are the Miniature, and the games ease of playability (due in most part I think to the simplicity of the rules), therefore I have been hesitant to develop 'House Rules' since the rules provided seem to work so well. But... with regards to the duration of Fires, I think in our next games I'll run it with Fires burning until that aircraft draws a smoke card, at which time the Fire is considered out, but the plane smokes, or until the plane leaves the playing filed, lands or is destroyed. Of concern however is the amount of damage the Fire card usually inflicts each turn.

Let's consider the damage caused by the Fire. Drawing from the 'A' deck is likely to result in the plane being forced out of the fight, or destroyed very early in the gaming session, so how about drawing a 'B' damage card, vice the "A' card as prescribed for in the rules?

For Campaign games, I think these changes would be appropriate, but for quick, one time scenarios, the rules as written will probably suffice.

Hi, I was wondering how this worked out for you. I normally stick to the official rules but am interested in adopting house rules for fire.

Cheers, Aled

[Doug]

I have found that in a small group that I game with no-one has survived 3flame markers, even if you dive to the ground that final flane card will get you in the end, Having said that there are some good ideas in this thread. However we are going to still use the WoW rules as they are.

[aikavaras]

I've read a lot about WWII pilots and aerial combat and never have I seen anyone mention that a plane caught fire but extinguished later. That's why I have started to use a house rule where the fire doesn't go out.

I like Charlie3's fire rules where there is a slight chance of the fire going out. From gamist point of view it's a good thing. I might add that to my games. There's one detail in Charlie's fire rule set I don't understand: why are some special damages limited out? I don't see any reason why fire couldn't harm the pilot or observer, damage controls or weapons etc.

[IRM]

I've been trying out a house rule for fires that falls somewhere between the original rules and reality. Pretty close to the existing rules for grounded planes and balloons on fire:

Aircraft on fire draw A-Damage cards at the start of each turn as normal, but don't discard counters (only one counter is taken, rather than the normal three). Instead, they continue to take damage until a zero card is drawn (in which case they discard the counter). In addition, a burning plane's pilot cannot fire his guns (observers still can).

I'm also going to add a rule that non-player planes must attempt to land ASAP if they catch fire (mainly for solo games). Probably just going to leave smoke as it is, other than treating shots from a smoking plane as if it was a level different from it's target. I've already got campaign rules for aircraft with special damage of any type having to check to see if it gets home safely (each SD card increases the difficulty), which I think covers the situation KirkH described in #17 well enough.

We sort of role-play damage to rationalise some of the more "gamey" elements in the rules e.g. if a smoking plane draws a fire card it could be caused by whatever's smoking getting worse rather than the bullets striking it that phase, or if it goes down to zero damage and has taken any special damage it could be a wounded pilot passing out or a damaged tail falling apart and sending the plane into a fatal spin rather than it running out of hit points.

[rkhlegacy]

Charlie, I like the house rules you have for Smoke and Fire. I will have to give them a try.

[Charlie3]

...There's one detail in Charlie's fire rule set I don't understand: why are some special damages limited out? I don't see any reason why fire couldn't harm the pilot or observer, damage controls or weapons etc. Well...
We ignore the gun jams because in the game that applies to a plane that is firing at you.

We ignore the pilot/observer incapasitated icon because we figured that you were likely going to crash and we have a rule for surviving crashes from damage point depleation already in place.

We ignore the rudder jam because we draw the Fire Damage card AFTER all maneuvers are drawn for the Game Turn. Since the jam does not take effect until the Next Game Turn, no one wanted to keep track. You're already on fire and likely going to ground one way or another anyway.

These were voted on by the original League Members as acceptable gaming results...by all means if you like the idea of the other damages taking effect go for it!:)

Someone else asked why "A" damage cards? Because when we started there were no "B" cards and simply it is stated "A" cards in the original rules. Realistically it should be the "C" cards due to the speed at which fire does critical damage in any aircraft, but that is no "FUN" and why we have the explosion card :D Happy flying!

[Charlie3]

Charlie, I like the house rules you have for Smoke and Fire. I will have to give them a try.Thanks...after coming up with the idea, I was one of the first to fall prey to my own evil whim:rolleyes:
It makes for great strories when you catch fire, it goes out, then starts again and you barely survive the crash landing!:D

[Pope]

I've been trying out a house rule for fires that falls somewhere between the original rules and reality. Pretty close to the existing rules for grounded planes and balloons on fire:

Aircraft on fire draw A-Damage cards at the start of each turn as normal, but don't discard counters (only one counter is taken, rather than the normal three). Instead, they continue to take damage until a non-zero card is drawn (in which case they discard the counter). In addition, a burning plane's pilot cannot fire his guns (observers still can).

I'm also going to add a rule that non-player planes must attempt to land ASAP if they catch fire (mainly for solo games). Probably just going to leave smoke as it is, other than treating shots from a smoking plane as if it was a level different from it's target. I've already got campaign rules for aircraft with special damage of any type having to check to see if it gets home safely (each SD card increases the difficulty), which I think covers the situation KirkH described in #17 well enough.

We sort of role-play damage to rationalise some of the more "gamey" elements in the rules e.g. if a smoking plane draws a fire card it could be caused by whatever's smoking getting worse rather than the bullets striking it that phase, or if it goes down to zero damage and has taken any special damage it could be a wounded pilot passing out or a damaged tail falling apart and sending the plane into a fatal spin rather than it running out of hit points.

Iain, this seems nice and simple to play have you made any changes to the smoking rules? Cheers Aled

[IRM]

Just RAW, other than reducing short range shots from it to one card.

[Pope]

Just RAW, other than reducing short range shots from it to one card.

Cheers, Aled