Working on something... [Archive] - Wings of Glory Aerodrome

Tonx

11-23-2015, 07:12

First time on the Aerodrome in four days ... Health to blame again sorry to say!

Now then - with scarecrow shaped lateral blind spots this aircraft sports Front (installation) / R-cheek / R-waist / Rear / L-waist / L-cheek and Top. If it wasn't for the rear gunner I would say Focke Wulf Fw.200 Condor.

But my gut instincts are saying to me Heinkel He.188 Grief ...

Nightbomber

11-23-2015, 07:34

Slave 1? :takecover:

Guntruck

11-23-2015, 08:40

But my gut instincts are saying to me Heinkel He.188 Grief ...

Nope, not an He177, the base has arcs where guns don't exist. Would have been useful if it was though.

matt56

11-23-2015, 12:12

I was thinking He-177... and especially after seeing the one in the bomber contest, I think I need to get one for myself...but it doesn't have waist guns.

My familiarity with WW2 planes' firing arcs is not up to speed - I can't think what this might be - did the Germans have waist guns on any large planes? I've seen nose and cheek guns, along with dorsal and ventral guns, and even tail guns and top turrets...

Ah, well, the Herr Oberst's magic will reveal itself in due course!:p

All the best,
Matt

Tonx

11-23-2015, 14:06

Nope, not an He177

Pardon me for that small error there - I did indeed mean Heinkel He.177 Greif (Griffin) ...

So we are looking at Axis not Allied. Firing arcs which leave a scarecrow shape in terms of blindspots. Plus cheek / front or chin gunner installations. I reckon that this could be Japanese ...

Mitsubishi G4M2e Betty now thinks me - and if it's carrying an Okha Glidebomb even more impressive!

milcoll73

11-23-2015, 17:02

It's not for the allies.

its the combination of cheek and waist positions thatre baffling me. axis bombers arent big on either. the only thing that even remotely comes to mind is a mitsubishi gm4 betty but, as far as i know it didnt have cheek positions. the suspence is killing me lol.

Tonx

11-23-2015, 18:03

G4M2e which is the version of the Betty which was used to launch the Okha (often mis-referred to as a Kamikaze) Gliding Weapon appears to have cheek-guns from the two photos I have examined. Earlier G4Ms were not equipped with waist-gunner installations but given their cargo the G4M2e was as they say armed to the teeth ...

clipper1801

11-23-2015, 20:40

Doris.

Old RAM in use, can't recall which is the "Doris" Japanese aircraft challenged here . . .

David Manley

11-23-2015, 20:42

.....the Okha (often mis-referred to as a Kamikaze) Gliding Weapon ...

mis-referred in what way?

Tonx

11-23-2015, 21:00

mis-referred in what way?

I have found that many have thought that what is actually the Okha Gliding Weapon is called a Kamikaze. Whereas Kamikaze when translated means Divine Wind and refers to the concept of using aircraft rammed to the gunnels with explosives as a piloted suicide weapon.

I only ever became interested in all this after hearing a play on Radio 4 which was broadcast on September 7th 2004 called 'The Kamikaze Handbook' ... I now have the translation of a genuine WW2 Kamikaze Handbook in my possession as provided to me by a friend. It does at times make for a very chilling read ... But it also puts to rest the urban myth about Banzai being the last words of a Kamikaze pilot at any time during World War 2. Banzai in fact means Forty Thousand Years and is in fact associated with good luck or good health!

'Remember when diving into the enemy to shout at the top of your lungs: "Hissatsu!" ("Sink without fail!") At that moment, all the cherry blossoms at Yasukuni shrine in Tokyo will smile brightly at you.' - WW2 Kamikaze Handbook. Probably explaining where the Okha (Cherry Blossom) got it's name from ...

flash

11-24-2015, 00:31

mis-referred in what way?

It's Ohka not Okha perhaps ?! :rolleyes:

All the right notes but not necessarily in the right order !!
http://www.quote-unquote.org.uk/p0000029_files/image002.gif

Tonx

11-24-2015, 03:43

It is indeed Ohka as Dave correctly points out above. Instead of Okha which I now understand to be a small regional airport in Russia. Well at least it's easier to spell than Nizhny-Novgorod or wherever the hell that is to quote Jeremy Clarkson ... Then James May both independently of one another and within weeks of each other too during BBC programmes screened during 2005 ...

But ... The reason Dave was Rep Pointed by myself just now has to be for what's commented upon next as well as pictured above: Rolling On Floor Laughing EVERYTHING Off :lol: :lol: at this purely legendary spot of posting!

Ready ... GRIEG: By ... With Him and Him! :lol: :lol:

Oberst Hajj

11-24-2015, 04:19

Mitsubishi G4M2e Betty now thinks me

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!

It's a G4M Betty Model 22. Fire arcs are taken from the TAIC Manual No. 1

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=182084&d=1448367184

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=182080&d=1448367180

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=182081&d=1448367181

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=182082&d=1448367182

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=182083&d=1448367183

The cheek guns, A and B on the top image and labeled # 2 on the base design are the same gun and gunner. It would have to be moved from one side to the other.

Now, who wants to make up a plane and management card for it?

Guntruck

11-24-2015, 05:08

Old RAM in use, can't recall which is the "Doris" Japanese aircraft challenged here . . .

:lol:David, couldn't resist! - Just chucked "Doris" in for a bit of mischief:lol:

Nightbomber

11-24-2015, 05:16

Betty is a very good choice, Keith. :thumbsup:
Your base will correct my gunsight to a proper mini to mount on it;).

Tonx

11-24-2015, 05:30

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!

It's a G4M Betty Model 22. Fire arcs are taken from the TAIC Manual No. 1

I prefer the sound of this being a team effort ... It just so happened that one of my contributions pointed us in the direction you were hoping to see us heading in Sir - this has all been great fun :salute:

HOWEVER How are we ever going to forget Dave's posting about Eric Morecambe / Ernie Wise & Andrew Preview ... Sorry: Andre Previn??! This has definitely been a Team Effort - which has gone from Greif to Grieg :thumbsup:

Aircraft Management Card - who would like to start us off on this brand new challenge ... Basically because the only AMC I have ever created successfully was the hand-drawn one I have for the Vulcan. I could always hand-draw another but I've something far more official-looking and IMHO professional in mind rather than just sketches on notepad paper.

The crew we would need to account for would be 2 x cockpit. 1 x Gunner Position 1. 1 x Interchangeable Gunner Position 2. 1 x Gunner Positions 3. 3 x separate Gunners located in Positions 4-6 or Waist Left / Waist Right and Tail. Bomb Aimers and Radio Operators are of course N/A in WGS terms. From what I can tell the Radio Operator also doubled up as a Radar Operator but this doesn't matter as that role is N/A to WGS crew management. So eight in total.

Teaticket

11-24-2015, 05:45

This is perfect for me. I originally was going to enter a Betty in the bomber contest. I have 4 in the works. Fantastic! :thumbsup:

Oberst Hajj

11-24-2015, 07:01

The Betty was one of the original 1/144 scale base I made like 5 years ago. I thought it a good time to start looking back at those older 1/144 scale bases and bring them to life as 1/200 scale using the new layout.

David Manley

11-24-2015, 12:39

I have found that many have thought that what is actually the Okha Gliding Weapon is called a Kamikaze. Whereas Kamikaze when translated means Divine Wind and refers to the concept of using aircraft rammed to the gunnels with explosives as a piloted suicide weapon....

The Ohka was indeed a Kamikaze weapon, and not a gliding weapon as it was rocket propelled. "Kamikaze" was the popular term applied to the Tokubetsu Kōgekitai, or "Special Attack Unit", which made use mainly of conventional aircraft but also included the Ohka rocket craft. It is often applied to other Japanese suicide units (land and sea based) but I don't think this was an official term.

Flying Helmut

11-24-2015, 14:23

Dave has the right of it; the Ohka - nicknamed baka (stupid) by the Americans, and many Japanese, had no landing gear, and no hope of the pilot returning to Japan to fly another. It was a suicide weapon, pure and simple, as was clearly demonstrated by numbers of them ploughing into U.S. picket destroyers off Okinawa.

matt56

11-24-2015, 14:56

Now that you've done a Betty flight stand, are you planning on doing a Veronica to go with it?:p

It's a shame I have absolutely NO interest in the Pacific Theater of Operations...

All the best, and keep up the amazing Aerodrome Accessories work!
Matt

clipper1801

11-24-2015, 15:08

:lol:David, couldn't resist! - Just chucked "Doris" in for a bit of mischief:lol:

Yeah, you are teasing the guy who failed his brain scan, they said I was missing the prerequisite organ . . . : )

Tonx

11-24-2015, 15:11

OK ... Ohka Responses - all read with great interest.

Following the Okha spelling earlier on (error in spelling from friend who translated the WW2 Kamikaze Handbook transcript which I have) I've just noticed another error in this transcript which lead to my belief that the Ohka was in fact a glided-weapon. Where my friend has spoken of a human-glided weapon I think he meant to actually speak of a human-guided weapon.

There are two examples of this rocket-powered one-way ticket in museums within the UK to my knowledge. First one I know of for sure is at RAF Cosford with a second complete weapon being on display at the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester. The IWM may have one preserved too at Duxford but I have yet to see this one if they do.

gully_raker

11-24-2015, 15:11

:thumbsup: Thanks for those great Betty Charts Keith.

:D Now how about a Lily Base?:confused:

Flying Helmut

11-24-2015, 15:34

Simple 10 second search on Wikipedia:-

Surviving Ohkas

United Kingdom

On display
Model 11: Royal Air Force Museum, Cosford (Number I-13 captured 1 April 1945 at Yontan, Okinawa, Japan)[15]
Model 11: Fleet Air Arm Museum, Yeovilton, Somerset.[16]
Model 11: Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester, Manchester.[17]
Stored or under restoration
Model 11: Imperial War Museum Duxford, Cambridgeshire.[18]

Tonx

11-24-2015, 16:27

Great - so I've worn a pair of trainers out seeing two of those four in the actual flesh. Better wear my doc martins to go and see the other two ;)

You really do get a strange sensation if you take a good long look at one of these in the flesh and reflect upon what it was actually designed to do. I always find my stomach tightens and I soon become quite lost for words soon after I see one on display. Mind you after the Events of 9/11 every time I used to see an American Airlines Boeing 767-223ER approaching a UK airport (London Heathrow mostly) I remember feeling that same sensation. Was actually quite relieved when AAL pulled the type from Trans-Atlantic flights during 2005. However what did not help there was that four days before it's destruction when assigned to American Airlines flight 011 I remember actually following N334AA out on departure from Manchester International Airport / MAN in England as I was flying a BAe (HS) 125-600 Manchester to Aberdeen.

Stumptonian

11-24-2015, 21:32

13th (or so) pic in this thread:

Ohka (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?22561-USAF-Museum-Dayton-Ohio-WWII-The-Final-Chapter)

Tonx

11-25-2015, 04:56

In direct relation to the Ohka discussion who else is aware of the Fieseler Fi 103R code-named Reichenberg which Germany developed during 1944.

A detachment of KG 200 was formed up as a suicide squad in order to fly these along the same guidelines as Japan's kamikaze squadrons. The Fi.103R was basically a manned V-1 and the detachment of KG 200 which was going to be assigned to these potential one-way tickets were given a specific name ... Leonidas Squadron.

Volunteers were required to sign a declaration which said: 'I hereby voluntarily apply to be enrolled in the suicide group as part of a human glider-bomb. I fully understand that employment in this capacity will entail my own death.' However unlike their Japanese counterparts they were presented with a choice not the restriction: It was either a one-way ticket but should somebody wish to the option of parachuting down to the attack-site vicinity was there.

Guntruck

11-25-2015, 05:32

In direct relation to the Ohka discussion who else is aware of the Fieseler Fi 103R code-named Reichenberg which Germany developed during 1944.

Yep. there's one quite close to home at the Lashenden Air Warfare Museum (http://www.lashendenairwarfaremuseum.co.uk/). There's also one at La Coupole museum in France (http://www.lacoupole-france.com/#_=_)

flash

11-25-2015, 07:07

In direct relation to the Ohka discussion who else is aware of the Fieseler Fi 103R code-named Reichenberg which Germany developed during 1944....

Yep, me too - converted a V.1 model when I was a kid and fitted it out with a pilot & canopy... bits of it probably still in the loft !

David Manley

11-25-2015, 08:52

Tonx

11-25-2015, 10:14

I recall one of the 1/72 plastic aircraft model manufacturers did a F-103R in a "twoofer" set with a Ba-349. I only ever saw it once, in the local toy shop when I was young. Went back the following week with saved up pennies and it had gone, and I never saw one again :(

This was by Heller - I have now got this pair built and painted properly in the attic. Cost an arm and a leg to buy the kit though and today every time one of these appears unbuilt and in a decent box on E-Bay the prices fetched are even more astronomical!

David Manley

11-25-2015, 10:34

Ah yes, that was it :)

Naharaht

11-29-2015, 00:43

I will be interested in purchasing a couple of those bases, when they are ready, Oberst Hajj, for my Model Power 1/182 scale Betty's. There is an image of a plane card in this thread http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?18186-Mitsubishi-G4M2-Betty&highlight=Betty but it will need amending.

Teaticket

11-29-2015, 05:22

Nice cards David. I also will get some of these bases when available.

Oberst Hajj

11-29-2015, 05:56

Unfortunately, Honza's great looking cards do not match my base. I'm sure we used different research materials to come up with our firing arcs. Hopefully I'll have a nice set of cards made up for it soon though.

Teaticket

11-29-2015, 07:45

Firing from the base is all I need as long as I know what chit to shoot from each arc. A matching card will be nice.

Oberst Hajj

11-29-2015, 08:45

Based off the research images I posted above, 20mm cannons for the dorsal and tail gun, 7.7mm for the rest. So C/B and A/A??

Teaticket

11-29-2015, 09:20

Based off the research images I posted above, 20mm cannons for the dorsal and tail gun, 7.7mm for the rest. So C/B and A/A??

Looks right for what I've read.

Jager

11-29-2015, 10:57

Keith;
this is what I came up with. Most of it is from the Whistling Death (Fighting Wings) game:

Mitsubishi G4M1 Betty:
Front gun: 10:00 to 2:00, A/A;
Dorsal gun: 4:00 to 8:00 high only A/A;
Left waist gun: 7:00 to 10:00 A/A;
Right waist gun: 2:00 to 5:00 A/A;
Tail gun: straight line 6:00 high to low C/B.

Mitsubishi G4M2/3 Betty:
*Front gun 1: 10:00 to 2:00, A/A;
*Front gun 2: 1:00 to 2:00, A/A;
*Front gun 3: 10:00 to 11:00, A/A
{All *front guns are fired by the Bombardier; yes this is correct; no, it doesn’t make
sense since guns 2 and 3 give no additional coverage. I didn’t design the plane}
Dorsal turret: 360 high only C/B;
Left waist gun: 7:00 to 10:00 A/A;
Right waist gun: 2:00 to 5:00 A/A;
Tail gun: straight line 6:00 high to low C/B.
{Upgrade waist guns in M3 model (‘OCT-43) to C/B}

Mitsubishi G6M1 Betty :
Front gun: 10:00 to 2:00, A/A;
Left waist gun: 7:00 to 10:00 C/B;
Right waist gun: 2:00 to 5:00 C/B;
{Note: the waist guns are actually the same gun; 2 phases to reposition to the
other side}
Tail gun: straight line 6:00 high to low C/B.
Forward ventral gun: 10:00 to 2:00, low, C/B
Aft ventral gun: 4:00 to 8:00, low, C/B

Karl

Oberst Hajj

11-29-2015, 11:25

From what I understand, the TAIC Manual was complied from what the Allies learned of the Japanese planes during the war... and probably the most accurate source to go off of. The actual armament I'm sure changed through out the war, even on the same "version" of the plane. The Bombardier did have to choose which of the two guns/three positions he wanted to fire from. I've not heard that the waist only had a single gun however (at least for the G4M version).

I have updated my base some:

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=182481&d=1448824999

Gun 5 has an octagon around it showing that it can fire at it's level and above. Guns 3 and 4 have a square around them showing they can fire at their level and below. I used 60° as the point at which shooting at above/below the same level took effect.