Immelmann Turn Question

[Pope]

Hi,

The Following came up in a recent game.

If you cann't turn right or left due to rudder damage (cause on two seperate shooting phases one after the other) can you still do an Immemmann Turn? The rules seem to allow you to do it and we played it that you could.

Cheers,

Aled

[Oberst Hajj]

Yes, it is allowed by the game rules. You guys played it correctly.

[Pope]

Thanks for the reply. I think we were unsure after looking at the diagrams on the forum that show what the plane actually did whilst performing an Immelmann Turn.

Thanks again, Aled

[Oberst Hajj]

Yes, it is not historically accurate to do one if your rudder is jammed, but it is fine with in the rules.

[flash]

Aled - here's an image of the original Immelmann turn - as you can see the rudder is used to execute the move:
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJGfwoyRkRcavECS435D5u2s_xHs_RHKz3I9OdI8SNV8EeJ1qs

Below is the "modern" Immelmann turn - and is the one used by the rules - although not shown the rudder would not be used here as done with airlerons ie the stick:
http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/McGrawHill/Aviation/f0355-02.gif

So pay your money & take your choice - personally I stick with the original so rudder damage would preclude making an Immelmann for me but many play to the rule on this one.

[Attila57]

Look at this YouTube Video to see a modern Immelmann:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkkIXXg29vI&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkkIXXg29vI&NR=1)

Attilio

[Pope]

Thanks Dave and Attilio,
I liked the diagrams and video clip which are very useful. My personal veiw is that rudder damage would prevent the Immelmann turn but as the Col states the WoW rules ignore rudder damage in relation to an Immelmann turn.

I think it's something that I'll have to consider for house rules in the future.

Cheers,

Aled

[Attila57]

Aled

I found another nice video about Immelmann turn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRl6Bd8r1GE

Your idea of a specific house rule seems good when there's a rudder damage.

Attilio

[Pope]

Aled

I found another nice video about Immelmann turn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRl6Bd8r1GE

Your idea of a specific house rule seems good when there's a rudder damage.

Attilio

Attilio

Great video's I cann't wait to try out the defensive split. I'm going to have to get more in to searching YouTube for useful information.

Thanks Aled

[Flying Officer Kyte]

What a smashing set of videos. The ones on the Lewis and other machine guns was very instructive.
Rob.

[Doug]

Even thought is a game I like the game to be as historicaly accurate as possible, so with what has been stated no more Immelmman turns when you have rudder damage for me.

[IRM]

Wouldn't you only need the rudder to turn to one side to perform the reverse direction part of the Immelmann ? (which would still allow you to do so with rudder damage). Unless you had both right and left rudder damage, of course.

Even if having any rudder damage prevented Immelmanns, I suppose you could always do a Split-S instead (only need to be able to half-roll for that).

[wargamer]

With the rise of flight demo flights, I have to agree, rudder damage will either only one direction of fall or no immelman with both directions busted.

[Pope]

Hi,

The Following came up in a recent game.

If you cann't turn right or left due to rudder damage (cause on two seperate shooting phases one after the other) can you still do an Immemmann Turn? The rules seem to allow you to do it and we played it that you could.

Cheers,

Aled

Hi Al & Iain, the rudder was jammed in both directions in the game that gave rise to the original question. As the Col, said as far as WoW is concerned it has no impact on the ability to perform a Immemmann Turn.

I'm waiting to see what house rules people come up with, if any.

Cheers Aled

[IRM]

I noticed, I was really replying to Doug's post.

There is a simple house rule I use which deals with similar situations to some degree:

Any plane which takes two rudder damage cards (any direction) has serious damage to it's tail and cannot safely perform any steep turns or Immelmanns for the rest of the game. If it attempts to do so, it has to draw an A-Damage card. If it shows any special damage result, the plane goes into a fatal spin and crashes. Any other result is ignored and the card is discarded.

[Pope]

I noticed, I was really replying to Doug's post.

There is a simple house rule I use which deals with similar situations to some degree:

Any plane which takes two rudder damage cards (any direction) has serious damage to it's tail and cannot safely perform any steep turns or Immelmanns for the rest of the game. If it attempts to do so, it has to draw an A-Damage card. If it shows any special damage result, the plane goes into a fatal spin and crashes. Any other result is ignored and the card is discarded.

Hi Iain,
That seems like a nice and simple house rule to me. Do you play with damage declared or kept secret.

Cheers, Aled

[IRM]

Always secret, unless there's a new player involved.

[Von Schlepp]

Agreed, rudder damage =no immelman.

[Linz]

Can you do a Long straight - Immelman - Long Straight - Immelman - Long straight ?

[flash]

Hi Linz - yes you can - we didn't used to play it that way until we corrected ourselves; it still comes as a nasty surprise when von Schmallhausen pulls it on me !

Iain - Like your house rule - good stuff as usual mate.

[Badin23]

Fantastic set of videos! Thanks for finding them.

[Linz]

Thanks will try to get the guys over here to adopt it too

[pivole]

Sorry I I'm confusing this with Dow, but you should really gain an altitude level with his, should you? And is a Split-s even possible like this, like what you're allowed to do.

[Ace]

Is an Immelman considered a steep manuever by the rules? In relation to a wounded pilot.

[MayorJim]

This is a great debate, with some good insights...but for me...I'll follow the rules as presented..just less complications :D

[Oberst Hajj]

Is an Immelman considered a steep manuever by the rules? In relation to a wounded pilot.

No, there has to be a <> symbol on the card for it to be a steep.

[grumpybear]

Great videos busted rudder no Immeliman as per WW1 video. But I think it should be decided by a house rule. So long as all know what the rule is to start.

[LGKR]

I always thought a good house rule would be that your rudder is jammed in what ever direction your plane is heading at the end of the turn. So if you played a straight or stall on the last phase of the turn your got the rudder jam you would have to play 3 straights. Same for turns. This would take care the Immelmen issue.

[wargamer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immelmann_turn

Now, based on this article. Using the WW One version, not the modern version. You instigate the Immelmann by climbing first and when you are hanging up there vertically by your propellor and are about to kick the rudder one way or the other to head back down to left or right (almost a 360 degree choice of turn). The following questions apply to fighters, not multicrew aircraft.

So, while you are hanging there, you have no target unless someone is directly above you?

Or if someone is at your level when you climb, they get basically a free shot at you?

[Linz]

In other wargaming I've played it has been assumed that the firing and movement phases happen at the same time. So while you are starting to climb you still get a shot in. The problem with this in wow is that our range is measured from our final resting place not our start position but if all are using the same rules then it doesn't matter. Linz

[Bruce]

Excellent house rule ideas re: Jammed Rudders
Excellent videos incl the ones on the different MGs as Iain said.
Once again, yet another good reason to belong to this site.

Thanks to all.