Height Advantage Dilemma

[MayorJim]

Okay..here's an informal poll and question.

How many folks really use altitude rules when playing? ...and more importantly, what advantage, if any, is there to being higher (no puns please!) than your opponent?

I rarely use the altitude rules and have not been able to see any plus to being at a higher elevation than my opponent is. If dive rules gave me an increase in speed, e.g. a straight move now turns into a straight-and-a-half so I can close more quickly; well, that might be useful. Also, some of the 2 seaters actually have a better shot at me when I'm above them...so, no plus there either.

What am I missing here? Higher altitude seems to only slow down or further complicate the game as it is.

[Bouncer]

Higher altitude is an advantage because your opponent's maneuvers are limited when he is attempting to climb to you, while you have much more freedom of movement in deciding when to dive out of the sun and "bounce" him! And you can tell by my user name that I do use the altitude rules and this is my favorite trick:D!

[IRM]

I almost always use altitude rules. Even if both side's planes have identical climb rates, you still get access to another two useful manoeuvre sequences.

Having an increased move for diving is a nice idea, but I think the limiting factor is the card lengths (same reason the WW2 game doesn't have the faster late war planes). A SPAD XIII could be moving about one and a half card lengths in a steep dive (about 300mph or so), although a Nieuport might top out at about 2/3 of a card (about 130mph if it's lower wing doesn't snap off first;)). And that's the simple version:

There might have to be different movement lengths for each aircraft type's Dives and Overdives (some planes might be able to do an Overdive with one card, representing a very steep dive, but their forward move might then only be nearly a normal one or less due to the angle of the dive, while others would need the two-card sequence but would get the move increase due to the shallower dive. And then of course you'd need rules for steep-diving planes making shallow Overdives too.), and rules about which planes can actually make steep Overdives. I'm sure some players out there will have house rules along these lines already.

Bouncer's already given a good example of why being above your opponent can be advantageous, especially if your aircraft has a higher rate of climb than your enemy's, but against two-seaters you'd be better attacking from below (climbing into gun range in their blind spot if you time it right). Something else you can't do without altitude, of course:)

It's also very useful when you're attacking ground targets or balloons, as you can stay above or below gun range a lot of the time.

[usmc1855]

Collisions aren't a factor when you play without altitude. Not very realistic to have two planes occupying the same space at the same time, with no threat or danger of a collision. (just one of the reasons I like to use altitude rules)

Altitude also makes a big difference when playing against observation balloons, or any scenario where the two sides start at differing altitudes. Your whole choice of maneuvers are impacted when altitude comes into play.

And of course.. bombing missions. Using the altitude rules dropping bombs... again... a new perspective on how you fly to succeed in your mission.

[Bruce]

We use them in about half our games.

The significant (for me) pluses are well stated in the previous responses.

There is no "down-side" in my opinion, but several of our gaming group prefer the less complex/taxing "No Altitude Rules". We use house rules for our altitude games which include the "Zoom-dive", the "Over-dive" and the "Falling Leaf" manoeuvre sequences in addition to the Immelmann and the Split-S. Especially when these optional manoeuvre sequences are used, it makes the game more challenging in that there is much more to think about and to remember. Two of our regular players are over 80 and we want them to continue to play. The "anti-altitude-rules" lobby argues that they play to have mindless fun; the rest of us just agree quietly to ourselves that they are mindless. It is an on-going minor debate that none of us is willing to push too hard.

I imagine that the same decision (to play without altitude rules more than half the time) would also be made if we had quite young players (currently our youngest is 28).

[rrodrick]

I've enjoyed using altitude but lately have been teaching a LOT of new pilots so I keep it simple.

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Since adopting altitude rules, we have found that it adds an extra dimension :o to the game.
Rob.

[Goering Ace]

My son and I use altitude rules almost all the time, unless we want just a quick game (dogfight) that will take less time. One of the big advantages to being at a different altitude is you can quickly cut in half the shot range of your opponent. Being at just 1 altitude difference means you only score a hit if you're within half a rulers distance away. 2 altitude different and there's no chance of hitting. So if your opponent has gained your 6 and he's in 2 card shot range, a quick dive changes that to only one damage card, or even none if you manage to increase the distance between the planes. I almost always change altitude if I get low on health and make sure I stay at least 1 altitude higher or lower than my opponent in order to avoid the 2 card damage shot.

Scott

[LGKR]

Our league uses only the ‘no altitude’ rules due to the time constraints of playing in the evening during the work week.

I think that may people think that 'no altitude' means that the planes our flying at the exact same level. The no altitude standard rules are a simple representation of flying combat, the altitude changes are implied. Our league assumes that the planes are changing altitude and are attempting to avoid collisions, thus overlapped planes are at different attitudes. We use the minis when we play and our overlapping collision rules work great. We only have a collision less than 10% of the time.

[csadn]

I've expressed my feelings on the altitude rules elsewhere [ :) ]. It's interesting to look at the poll and notice the "always/frequently" faction and the "never/occasionally" faction are running nearly-even....

[MayorJim]

Collisions aren't a factor when you play without altitude. Not very realistic to have two planes occupying the same space at the same time, with no threat or danger of a collision. (just one of the reasons I like to use altitude rules)

Altitude also makes a big difference when playing against observation balloons, or any scenario where the two sides start at differing altitudes. Your whole choice of maneuvers are impacted when altitude comes into play.

And of course.. bombing missions. Using the altitude rules dropping bombs... again... a new perspective on how you fly to succeed in your mission.

Yes, I agree with all of the above...that's of course the obvious reason to use altitude. However; except for climbing/diving to escape a plane right on your butt...I still don't see a HUGE gain. I suppose the "realists" out there would want altitude all the time. I can get 2-3 games in with 3 planes per side in a moderate evening (as long as the liquids keep flowing) :) if we don't use altitude rules. I agree that I could get 1 good game in with altitude...but then it's only 1 game versus 2-3. I guess that due to time limitations, altitude rules will be used rarely by me....at least for now.

Keep the polling results coming in please...looks like a close one here...

[usmc1855]

This is one of the better qualities of the Wings of War rules. It allows for the use of, or lack there of, of a number of it's rules, yet it is still appealing and enjoyed by everyone who plays.

Our group usually has about 2 to 2-1/2 hours to play each time we gather. We usually pay with about four or five aircraft per side, and have never found the pace either hindered, or increased dependent on whether or not we sussed altitude rules. What slows us down is the usual smack talk and banter that goes on which distracts the players quickly choosing their next three maneuver cards.

It seems we are always caught waiting for one or two of the players to select their next maneuvers.

[wargamer]

Actually I suspect like most polls you left out some real options...

Your poll addresses use or non use. I suggest you put in options as follows.

1. Already use altitude rules.

2. If the altitude rules are published and are good enuff, will consider useing them.

3. Not interested in altitude rules.

[Doug]

I like the altitude rules (and we have always used them) as it makes the game 3 dimentional, if your not going to use the the hight rulues then in my view you just may as well play with cards only. This is not intended as a critisum of those who do not use hight rules, just my personel view point!

[ktodd]

Since adopting altitude rules, we have found that it adds an extra dimension :o to the game.
Rob.

I agree

[mosstrooper]

Since I play almost exclusivly solo I dont bother with them , makes it a bit more complecated when flying both planes.

[flash]

I don't generally use altitude rules for the same reasons others have stated and am in agreement with our friend Don - We look at it that the aircraft are fighting in an 'altitude bubble' and that height changes are implied eg when doing Immelmanns or loops etc.
Intersting poll Jim.

[KiltedWolf]

I agree with everyone that finds using the altitude rules adds an extra dimension (pun?) the the game. Our group just started using them, and I used them at this weekend's convention and found them simple, straightforward, and fun! Newcomers had no difficulty in picking up the use of climb counters, and using altitude to an advantage -- either to bounce someone or to make an experienced player work a bit harder (by maintaining an altitude difference).

That being said, I can see there are times where altitude is not "needed," such as during a friendly pub match with cards and just a playing surface. Now that I have the official WoW mats (and they went over wonderfully well at the convention) I will be looking to play in more places outside (for Tucson) the "normally" considered gaming spots. The portable nature of the cards vs. carrying the miniatures is enticing.

Cheers!

[Pope]

I was nervous of using altitude at first because none of the other gamers in my local club where using the optional rule for altitude. I thought it must be really complicated and best avoided.

But after joining the forum and getting advice from the Col ahnd other members we when for it and to be honest altitude rules are great fun and add a lot to the game.

But in common with other forum users I still play games without altitude which I also enjoy. I think altitude is a bit like hill starts when learning to drive we all think its a lot more complicated than it is, but once you grasped it you find its simple and not as bad as you thought.

Cheers Aled

[Von Rotherham]

I don't use the altitude rules, I always assume that the planes are at a similar level when they get into combat. I understand what everyone says about the advantage of being out of range but if you can't dive away quicker out of danger then I don't understand the reasons for using them. In Richtofen's War (which I played heavily when younger) there were rules for adding speed onto a dive, giving a damaged plane a chance to get away. I guess I can't comment directly as I have never used the rules, but this how it looks from the sidelines...

[KiltedWolf]

I don't use the altitude rules...I understand what everyone says about the advantage of being out of range but if you can't dive away quicker out of danger then I don't understand the reasons for using them...I guess I can't comment directly as I have never used the rules, but this how it looks from the sidelines...

I highly suggest you try the altitude rules before assuming how they play. I am not saying you may find a difference personally, but I thought like you until I actually used them and I won't be going back. You won't understand or see the differences in play until you use them. Diving out of the way (which isn't really diving since you aren't changing altitude if you aren't using the altitude rules) is only one facet. To be able to have the difference in altitude reduce even the strongest player to short range; attacks at reduce damage is significant; you then have the ability to bounce your target.

Anyway, try them out and then decide if you can't see the advantage.

Cheers!

[Von Rotherham]

As I said I haven't used them so I'm not really in a position to comment. Having said that, I'm working away at the moment and the people who's house I am staying in are interested in playing so I'm going to introduce them to WoW tomorrow. I might slip in the altitude rules as we go along, that way I get to playtest them as well... :)

[Volant Gun]

I have always used the altitude rules because it adds the veritcal demension of flight. Without altitude the game doesn't play as well. A good example is the huge advantage two seaters have in shooting you down. With altitude the odds are more realistic. Altitude makes all the difference. Otherwise its just another fancy game of chess. :eek:

Have Fun,
Volant Gun.

[LGKR]

I have always used the altitude rules because it adds the veritcal demension of flight. Without altitude the game doesn't play as well. A good example is the huge advantage two seaters have in shooting you down. With altitude the odds are more realistic. Altitude makes all the difference. Otherwise its just another fancy game of chess. :eek:

Have Fun,
Volant Gun.

And whats so bad about a fancy game of chess?

With altitude it's just another fancy game of tri-level chess, you Vulcan. :D

[Volant Gun]

I would like to put it another way. An aviation game in a two dimensional playing field isn't truly an aviation game. Ask any pilot and they all say the same thing, "Pull the stick back and the houses get smaller. Push the stick forward and the houses get bigger." You can't do that with a Panzerkampfwagen mini! :D

VG

[LGKR]

I would like to put it another way. An aviation game in a two dimensional playing field isn't truly an aviation game. Ask any pilot and they all say the same thing, "Pull the stick back and the houses get smaller. Push the stick forward and the houses get bigger." You can't do that with a Panzerkampfwagen mini! :D

VG

I know this has been stated before, but it's the simplicity of the game that attracts. The altitude is implied in the basic game, you just need to use your imagination. Nothing against using the altitude rules, I just like the fast pace of the basic game.

[Volant Gun]

You're right on the mark. You can adapt the game to your way of play. As they say, "Flexability is the key to air power." ;)

Have Fun,
Volant Gun.

[Charlie3]

I agree with ALL of you...I play with the Traverse City WoW League with LGKR as a wing mate and opponent, with no alt. rules and greatly enjoy the game. I have also played with several versions of the alt. rules and greatly enjoyed the game. For me it just really comes down to what STYLE of game you are in the mood for. I do admit however that in game terms the alt. rules do seem to create an opposite effect on the combat than it does in reality. In real combat the advantage of alt. seems to help more with the attacks, in the game it seems to help more with defence. Either way you have the same result however broken planes going down.

[Max Headroom]

If you leave out the altitude you are only enjoying 2/3rds of the strategy! You need that extra 3rd dimension to truly enjoy the game to the fullest... As someone mentioned a fancy cess game, with no altitude is like a chess game where every piece is a pawn! Add the altitude and NOW you've got a game.
As said earlier, once you've had a couple of games with altitude, it doesn't slow the game at all really.

[Goering Ace]

If you leave out the altitude you are only enjoying 2/3rds of the strategy! You need that extra 3rd dimension to truly enjoy the game to the fullest... As someone mentioned a fancy cess game, with no altitude is like a chess game where every piece is a pawn! Add the altitude and NOW you've got a game.
As said earlier, once you've had a couple of games with altitude, it doesn't slow the game at all really.

Well said, Alan. I couldn't agree more.

Bottom line for me is that yes, the game is fun in it's basic form. But adding altitude takes it to a whole new level. Altitude rules are easy to learn and totally enhance the game. Anyone who won't try them is just cheating themselves out of a better WOW gaming experience.

Scott