A new Eastern Front Scenario

[zenlizard]

I'm starting this thread so we, the collective we, can develop an Eastern Front scenario for WGF. This came out of (Gah, I had done an html insert here, forgetting the forums aren't set up for it. The Thread is "100 Years Ago Today", in the UK Wing; the actions on 28 February/1 March), concerning the action in northern Poland, stated as "Russian forces launch an offensive against the Germans in northern Poland, with both sides supported by massed armored cars and motor vans."

So, as far as I can tell, this was the combat near Przasnysz, Poland: at this early time, I cannot tell if the fighting was ever given a formal name as a battle; but that's a jumping-off point for research purposes. There was apparently a large amount of fighting in the area also in 1917, with the Russians claiming the defeat of two German Army Corps (New York Times Current History of the War).

Given this, I have to wonder if the claim by the "Century Ago Today" site was mistaken by a couple of years. Eh, if we set it in 1917, we're more likely to get "interesting" or at least, WGF-available aircraft. Note that I have yet not had time to consult my reference works about what types/models of armored cars might have been used, by either side.

So, the setting: Northern Poland; given the time of year (late February/early March), I would suggest scattered clouds as the weather conditions.
Mission Type: Ground Support
Time Frame: This is the first decision that we, as a group, have to make: set in 1915 or 1917? It will affect the equipment availability.
Forces Involved: I envision this as a mutual struggle of ground infantry, with one or two armored vehicles (armored cars) on the Russian side, and possibly scattered unarmored vehicles on both sides: and I think it would make for an interesting massed, group-play scenario if each side had a fight of designated strafers, and a designated group of escorts, say a flight of three each (twelve planes total): but if people want a smaller scenario, restrict it to a German strafe of Russian ground troops (particularly if set in 1917, as the Russians were launching a counter-attack), with Germany/Russian Infantry, a Russian armored car or two, German strafers & Russian interceptors only.

What do others think?

[flash]

There are some useful target cards here in the files (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=cat&id=19) you could make use of Sam, Tanks, trucks, guns, armoured cars. There are some air v ground elements to some of the OTT campaign games you might find useful - particularly the last (mission 9) of OTT ED here (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?21321-Early-Doors-Mission-9-Last-Gasp-of-the-Somme-15-September-1916) which more or less plays exactly what you've just described just with one side of tanks and infantry. :)

[zenlizard]

So, what I've been able to find out about Russian armored cars of the first world war:
Encyclipedia of Tanks and Armored Fighting Vehicles, Thunder Bay Press, San Diego, California, 2006, Chris Bishop, General Editor:
"From 1914 to 1917 the Russians used man types of armored car, ranging from direct imports to local improvisations, but the most important type was the Austin-Putilov"
A pocket reference work, Armored Fighting Vehicles, Barnes & Noble, arrangement with Amber Books, Ltd, London, England, 1999, Philip Trewitt, edtr, agrees.

So, I guess this would be the general representative type, specifications are:
Crew: 5
Maximum Gross Weight: 5.2 metric tons
Dimensions: Length 4.88m, Width, 1.95m (with a consistent aircraft scale of 1/144, this means a target card of about 44mm x 13.5mm)
Power plant: one 37.3 KW (50 hp) gasoline engine
Maximum speed: 50kph (about 31 mph): meaning that, under the best conditions, the target might move about roughly half of an XD aircraft)
Armament: two Maxim machineguns: these were mounted in back-to-back turrets on the vehicle roof, so they could cover each about 180 degrees of fire, but didn't have the elevation that could possibly shoot at aircraft (unless the aircraft were already on the ground).

[flash]

Something like this then Sam:

http://dic.academic.ru/pictures/wiki/files/70/Fiat_Izorsky_dispatched_to_front.jpg

http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot/tanks/tanks-a/austin-putilov-armoured-car-1916.png

Once up armoured they were considered more successful than other designs by, among others, Armstrong Whitworth, Renault and Sheffield-Simplex.

[zenlizard]

Yes, those would make an excellent representation for game purposes.

[zenlizard]

And for the German armored cars, I had to rely on Wikipedia. I don't like doing this, but y'know, Wikipedia is a good place to start looking for stuff-but I'll generally go poking at *the sources*, rather than Wikipedia itself. Be that as it may, there are apparentely two candidates for German armoerd cars: the Büssing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%BCssing_A5P) and the Ehrhardt E-V/4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehrhardt_E-V/4 ).
Specs on the former:
Crew: 10
Weight: 22,600 pounds (10,300 kg)
Dimensions: Length: 31.17 feet (9.50 m), Width: 6.89 feet (2.10 m), Height: 11.4 feet (3.5 m)
Range: 150 miles (240 km)
Armor: 6–9 mm
Armament: 3x 7.92 mm MG 08 machine guns
Powerplant: 1x 6-cylinder Büssing 'Otto' petrol, developing 90 hp
Performance: Maximum road speed: 21 miles per hour (34 km/h)

And on the latter:
Weight 7.12 - 7.75 tonnes
Dimensions: Length 5.3 m Width 2 m Height 2.85 m
Crew 8 or 9
Armor up to 9 mm
Main armament Usually 3 machine guns
Engine petrol 80 hp (59 kw)
Speed 61.3 km/h

Most relevant for game purposes are dimensions, armament, and maximum speed, of course. The Büssing would be 66mm x 24mm, and move about 1/3 an XD aircraft; the Ehrhardt would be 37mm x 14mm, and move maybe about 2/3 of an XD aircraft.

The movement of the targets I think,is important; realistically, anyone under attack is going to do what he can to avoid or negate the attack, so I'm envisioning some sort of evasive action by the armored cars.

[flash]

The Ehrhardt has a card in the files section here (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=417) Sam

Pic of the Büssing A5P
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/B%C3%BCssing_A5p.jpg

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Pendraken Miniatures do a 10mm Ehrhardt if you are after a 3D model to place on the card.

http://www.pendraken.co.uk/World-War-I-c17/German-sc106/

Rob.

[Lt. S.Kafloc]

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608045104772222858&pid=15.1&P=0

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608037240680743112&pid=15.1&P=0

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608036729585140317&pid=15.1&P=0

[zenlizard]

Nice, Skafloc.

[Jager]

I need to get cracking on some research (add to the pile :hmm:).
The Perfect Captain gaming group from Canada has a nice set of rules for the RCW that could be adapted to WW1:
http://perfectcaptain.50megs.com/redactions.html
Karl

[Jager]

Did a bit of research today (instead of house work :smack: ):
The battle of Przasnysz, Poland 1915:
http://ww1blog.osborneink.com/?tag=sigint

http://www.theodora.com/encyclopedia/n/battles_of_the_narew.html

https://books.google.com/books?id=A574mjoDCSoC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=Przasnysz,+Poland+feb-28+1915&source=bl&ots=dvYbAnTxq4&sig=Cy9b5lstFvotWwVix3xkdRTyJRc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rj0AVbzSJo_asAT6ioLICQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwBDgo#v=onepage&q=Przasnysz%2C%20Poland%20feb-28%201915&f=false

Not a lot here, nor anything in the search to indicate large numbers of armored cars used.
Karl

[zenlizard]

Thank you, will most certainly have to look at those sources.

[zenlizard]

And after looking, yeah, none of the sources indicates large numbers of armored cars in use; ditto for air support. In fact, the most interesting thing about the second source given is that it details the fighting in the area in July/August, rather than February; which more than anything else, supports the overall view that the Armies involved fought over the same ground time & time again. No wonder Falkenhayn came to the conclusion that armies of millions of soldier simply aren't to be annihilated in a single, decisive battle (Mahan on the land, anyone?).

[Jager]

Also (probably no coincidence), the same area was fought over in 1920, and again in 1939. :(
Karl