Spad XII rules for the 37mm cannon?

[Zeecks]

Was told there were rules for it in the old books. Does anybody know the rules, or where I can find them?

[Mau Fox]

Ciao Steven,

you can find everything you need here (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?685-SPAD-Cannon).

And you can even DIY one just following these (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?4398-Converting-a-SPAD-13C-1-into-a-SPAD-12Ca-1&highlight=canon) easy steps.

Mau:pint:

[Zeecks]

Thanks, but I'm not interested in somebody elses "house" rules. We (the club group I fly with) can come up with some rules that will fit with some of our current house rules. Still looking for what might have been published. Some of my fellow club members think they saw it in scenarios.

[fast.git]

Hi Steven. I can't be 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure that the SPAD XII (a development of the SPAD VII) isn't an official Wings of War/Glory aircraft. That being the case, my initial thought is that any rules you would find would be, by their very nature, "house" rules. Mau Fox pointed you towards the rules with which I'm familiar, but I'll go back and take a look at all of my old WoW documentation and see if I missed something.

[Mau Fox]

What Christopher said Steve.
I rummaged in all of my WoG bags but I was not been able to find anything official.
It would be of interest if the guys at your club could remember where they saw any official stats or scenarios.

Mau:pint:

[Teaticket]

As far as I know there is no Official SPAD XII with cannon. There is a thread somewhere discussing it and it is listed in the Unofficial list of planes. Here (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=2067)

[phililphall]

I too have looked through all of my rules sets and the closest I can come to the SPAD 37mm is the rules for AAA. I doubt that Ares will do anything about the cannon armed a/c any time in the near future so I would recommend house rules. We have some very good ones here on the site.

[Angiolillo]

I tested rules for it ages ago, back in 2005 or so. But i confirm that they were never officially released.

[flash]

Well there's the answer from the man himself Steven so you will have to use house rules !

Suggestions in addition to Dons good work:
As the cockpit filled with smoke when the cannon was fired - do not allow use of the MG in the phase immediately after firing, or, start reloading as the pilot can't see !
The Vickers MG was used for ranging purposes so to limit the cannon fire you could set its use to firing only after a phase of MG fire, or, maybe even successful MG fire (though that may be over harsh) This would give you a phase of MG firing, a phase of the cannon being fired and a phase of cockpit full of fumes and no firing/reloading.

The Stats show it as: SPAD XII 17Q1-Q418 / Mvr Deck S / Damage B+C / Hits 16 / Max Alt 12

[Flying Officer Kyte]

:thumbsup: Sounds like sage advice to me Dave.
If I'm ever tempted to go down that path myself I will adopt the House rules with your limitations.:D
Rob.

[Teaticket]

Good rule Dave. Now I have reason to paint up that Shapeways SPAD XII I bought. :thumbsup:

[Zeecks]

Thanks everybody for the input. I may have to call out my fellow club members and have them produce something before telling me about anything further. They just kept telling me that it's in the scenarios, look it up.

[Pseudotheist]

Here's what Andrea posted on the matter back on the Yahoo group in 2008:


We actually playtested it. It fires at C with the cannoon, but then it takes three smoke counters and it has to reloaded. There is a bonus if you shot at the previous turn with the machinegun at the same target (that was the main scope of the single MG).
Pretty nice, but quite hard to be put in the next box since it would need a C deck. Maybe in one of the next boosters, maybe as a special model with a rule leaflet attached... Not so easy since usually Airplane packs are marketed with no concern for translations and languages. But a first try will be done with a balloon + a Nieuport 16 model, then we will see.


> Even with it's low muzzle velocity and stripped down
> weight, it must have knocked a 800kg SPAD about in the
> air..

Yes. That's why our rule says also:

After every Cannon shot the plane must insert a stall as next move
and shift all the other planned maneuvers one step.
Example: If you shoot at the end of the first phase, your second
card is now a stall, your third one is the one you planned for your
second phase, and then you plan your next turn; if you shoot at the
third phase your first card planned for the next turn must be a
stall.
This inserted stall counts as a "non-steep/normal" maneuver so if
you had a steep maneuver (diamond) card as your next move you may
still play it with no consequences.

[Zoe Brain]

I'd like to keep things simple.

First of all, the SPAD XII was just one of many aircraft armed with a 37mm cannon. There were many pushers with a 37mm rather than a MG as their primary armament. The 37mm had two types of shell - a conventional HE round used mainly for ground attack, and an oversized shotgun shell for use anti-air. The latter wasn't that popular with escorts, as the spread was large, and there are many reports of the target being hit - and also friendly aircraft nearby.

Anyway, it would be desirable to have the same rules for all aircraft with such weapons, Spad XII, Breguet 5, Voisin 3, 8 and 10, some FE2d's and Caproni CA3s etc.

The simplest would be to make it a C class weapon, which effectively jams after every shot, requiring 3 turns to reload/unjam.

If we wish to differentiate between the pivot weapons controlled by observers on the various pushers, and the fixed through-prop-hub weapon fired by the pilot in the SPAD XII, just require that the ffixed 37mm can only be fired if it would get a +1 (due to second shot from the ranging mg, tailing, firing from above etc).

[Angiolillo]

Thanks a lot Pseudotheist! I tought I altready posted them, but I looked for them and I could not find them any more.

These are the rules that I gave to playtesters:


To fire the 37mm Cannon ('C' Damage) the gun must be loaded - i.e. have a artillery counter at the center of his card silhouette on the control panel (put one at the start of the game) or use the optional reload tracking card in the files section. The range of the cannon is one and a half ruler lengths.

If hit by the 37mm Cannon the target takes a single 'C' damage card, no matter the distance (there are no short and long ranges).
When the gun fires, the SPAD XII takes a smoke counter in addition to any other counters it can have from other shots or special damage.
After every Cannon shot the plane must insert a stall as next move and shift all the other planned maneuvers one step.
Example: If you shoot at the end of the first phase, your second card is now a stall, your third one is the one you planned for your second phase, and then you plan your next turn; if you shoot at the third phase your first card must be a stall.

This inserted stall counts as a "non-steep/normal" maneuver so if you had a steep maneuver (diamond) card as your next move you may still play it with no consequences.

Loading the cannon takes three consecutive phases. At the beginning of any phase in which the silhouette of the plane has no artillery counter on it, the SPAD XII player can start to load it. In that phase, take an artillery counter and put it on a corner of the airplane card silhouette. At the next phase, put it at the center of a side of the card silhouette. At the end of the third phase, put it on the center of the card silhouette to remember that the gun is now fully loaded.
From the next phase, the player may fire again whenever they want.
While loading, the airplane can not execute Immelmann and Split-S, nor fire with the machine guns (A/B damage) nor unjam the machine guns.

Optional rule - cannon aim
When a SPAD XII shoots with the cannon, if in the previous phase it shot with the machine gun at the same target the cannon shot is made with aim. The SPAD pilot takes the C card and looks at it before passing it to the target: if it is a 0, he reveals it and he can draw a second C card to give to the target player instead. If this second card is 0, the shot is a miss.

[Zoe Brain]

See:

157195
157196
157200

Numerous flying boats had them for anti-sub work.
157204

[Angiolillo]

Great selection Zoe!
Here a Caproni Ca.3. According to Alegi's Windsock, two such planes were at 107a Squadriglia to defend Rome. According to Gentilli/Varriale this unit had a section of S.P.2 with cannons from october 1917.
(not that i remember any ww1 attack against Rome. Neaples yes, with a Zeppelin http://www.naplesldm.com/zeppattack.htm - but against it you'd probably needed a better climber?)

157217

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Thanks for the rules info Andrea. That puts everything in perspective.
We can call these Official unofficial rules.;)
Rob.

[Angiolillo]

Not to be confused with Officer's unofficial rules, in case you make your own. ;) ;) ;)

[Flying Officer Kyte]

Quite so sir. Quite so.
Kyte.:salute:

[fast.git]

Thanks to Dave, Todd, Zoe, and Andrea for all of these rules suggestions! I do not, as of this moment, have a cannon-armed kite... but it's looking to more of a temporary situation in light of this thread!

[Angiolillo]

IMHO, if you use a SPAD XIII it quite fits anyway, until we will release one. The maneuvres and the general look are the same. I think that a single machinegun (fire B) was the standard, but that some had two (fire A).

[flash]

.... until we will release one. ....

:eek: Really ?!!!

Balders did a conversion but unfortunately deleted all his photo's before he left the circuit - however his step by step instructions should be easy enough to follow:
http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?4398-Converting-a-SPAD-13C-1-into-a-SPAD-12Ca-1&highlight=canon

[Angiolillo]

I'd like to. But it could take years - there are several planes that are more important. But never say never...

[flash]

Conversion it will be then !! ;)

[Zeecks]

That is a cool set of rules with explanations. I will have to present this with our group and see where we go with it.

I appreciate everybody's comments, and I can see that in this game there is plenty of other/new/misc stuff around to expand upon.

Thanks

[fast.git]

Good to hear that you've found some things you're comfortable bringing back to your group... and, by the way, welcome to this group! You'll find this to be a genuinely enthusiastic and knowledgeable group, who are happy to do what they can to answer questions and offer suggestions.

[Zoe Brain]

A Spad XII (Shapeways) made its appearance at Cancon - though the player went for a red XIII instead.

We've playtested the "C class with auto jam" on Spad XII, Ilya Maurometz, AEG G.IVk and Voisin 8. It's not as effective as a standard A armament, but the B+C(sometimes) on a Spad XII is comparable to straight A in air to air. Better in some ways, not as good in others. Best used as ground attack vs fast moving targets such as trains, there it's a monster.

[flash]

Having converted a Spad XIII I blooded it at a recent get together (http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/showthread.php?21637-Ashford-Gets-Bombed-Again!)against some Gotha and it was fairly successful - here are the stats and the rules I cobbled together from the various sources above.

SPAD XII: 17Q1-Q418 / Mvr Deck S / Damage B+C / Hits 16 / Climb Rate 3 / Max Alt 12

· Max 12 Rounds for Cannon (This is the real load out apparently but game adjustable)
· Range: 1 Ruler (To tie in with the ranging of the mg, one and a half rulers I thought too uber)
· 1 x C Damage card at close or long range (C deck adjusted to 4 zero's ie a third of the deck similar to others as aimed fire)
· MG & cannon cannot be fired in same phase.
· The MG was used for ranging purposes so to limit the cannon fire it can only be fired in the phase after a phase of MG fire. (This makes it a little trickier to use)
· As the cockpit filled with smoke/fumes when the cannon was fired - do not allow use of the MG in the phase immediately after firing the cannon, or, start reloading.
· Cannon takes consecutive 3 phases to reload.
· Reload requires two straight manoeuvre cards & MG cannot be used during the reload.
· After firing the cannon the SPAD XII must insert a stall card as its next move - this does not count as a steep card but a normal non steep manoeuvre

This gives you a phase of MG firing, a phase of the cannon being fired and a phase of cockpit full of fumes with no firing/reloading which is on a 'non steep' stall manoeuvre.

Successful against slow moving bombers, I knocked down 3 - one to Cannon (boom), one to MG (boom), one to a combo & with assistance from others - but I have yet to try it on a two seater or scout which will be harder to get the two successive shots on and may prompt a rule update !

[Angiolillo]

Thanks a lot for the feedback! I also gave one ruler to the cannon - I do not know if a longer range could be historically and technically justified, but I fear that it would spoil the game - Imagine the Gotha having to try to get closer while the SPAD fires and runs away... It does not seems to really fit with the daredevil Frenchmen who used the SPAD XII.

[flash]

Thanks a lot for the feedback! I also gave one ruler to the cannon - I do not know if a longer range could be historically and technically justified, but I fear that it would spoil the game - Imagine the Gotha having to try to get closer while the SPAD fires and runs away... It does not seems to really fit with the daredevil Frenchmen who used the SPAD XII.

My feelings exactly Andrea !

[Honza]

We were testing it yesterday. Spad + triplane against Rolland + DRI. We lost as he Spad went down.
I flew the Spad and managed to fire 2x at Rolland (0+8). We used 1,5 ruler range and two consecutive straights reloading (+ one stall after a shot).
I hadn't checked the pictures, and so i didn't mount any other guns at Spad. I believe that 1 ruler distance is just the right thing when you can shoot your normal gun. Is shooting both guns at the same time allowed?
It was fun, and it made me purchase one SPAD VII. Well done Andrea :)

161454

161455

[Flying Officer Kyte]

A very interesting exercise, and tends to confirm that Dave and Andrea are right in their estimation of range, and limitations of fire power. Not too easy to get a shot right, but if you do the results are worth the effort.
Rob.

[Angiolillo]

Thanks a lot for the report, Honza! ;)

[OldGuy59]

210436

[Walter Nowotny]

We use the "house" rules for flying both the Spad Cannon powered crafts. The seaplane also had one. Never had an issue, they play true.

[David Manley]

As the cockpit filled with smoke when the cannon was fired - do not allow use of the MG in the phase immediately after firing, or, start reloading as the pilot can't see !
The Vickers MG was used for ranging purposes so to limit the cannon fire you could set its use to firing only after a phase of MG fire, or, maybe even successful MG fire (though that may be over harsh) This would give you a phase of MG firing, a phase of the cannon being fired and a phase of cockpit full of fumes and no firing/reloading.

The Stats show it as: SPAD XII 17Q1-Q418 / Mvr Deck S / Damage B+C / Hits 16 / Max Alt 12

I really do rather like this idea :)

[David Manley]

Thanks a lot for the feedback! I also gave one ruler to the cannon.....

Seems reasonable if one is using the MG to range the 37mm.......

[OldGuy59]

210440

[Zoe Brain]

Everything you never wanted to know about cowguns, bekers, and other cannon on aircraft.

http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/cannon_pioneers.htm


. The first of the French 37 mm airborne cannon was the powerful M1902 "Tube Canon" which fired a 37x201R cartridge. The other common French aircraft weapon in this calibre was the short-barrelled naval Hotchkiss M1885, chambered for the low-velocity 37x94R cartridge. The M1885 was later modified with a smoothbore barrel to fire the "shotgun cartridge" shells in some fighters, as a rifled barrel disturbed the pattern of shot.
...
Despite the problems of air-to-air shooting, the French fighter ace Guynemer was interested in the possibility of installing an engine-mounted cannon between the cylinder banks of the geared Hispano V8 aero engine, firing through the hollow propeller hub, and he inspired such an installation in the SPAD 12Ca1. There were two different types of 37 mm cannon available; some confusion as to their origins exists but it appears that one was a conventional SAMC design with a rifled barrel, the other was a modified M1885 smoothbore firing canister shot. They are often referred to as "Puteaux" guns but this might just refer to the arsenal where they were made. A Vickers machine gun was also carried. The plane emerged in July 1917 and a number were built (although nothing like the 300 ordered), several pilots, including Guynemer, achieving some successes with it. These weapons were still manually loaded, however, and unpopular with most pilots because of their awkward loading and the propellant fumes which filled the cockpit on firing. Only eight were reported to be at the Front on 1 October 1918.

[flash]

210440

Nice card Mike - can you do one along similar lines to match the rules I created ?

· Max 12 Rounds for Cannon
· Range: 1 Ruler
· 1 x C Damage card at close or long range (C deck adjusted to 4 zero's ie a third of the deck similar to MGs as aimed fire)
· MG & cannon cannot be fired in same phase.
· The MG was used for ranging purposes so the cannon can only be fired in the phase after a phase of MG fire.
· Cockpit fills with smoke/fumes when the cannon was fired - do not use the MG,or, start reloading in the phase immediately after firing the cannon
· Cannon takes consecutive 3 phases to reload.
· Reload requires two straight manoeuvre cards & MG cannot be used, or, jam cleared during the reload.
· After firing the cannon insert a stall card as its next move - this does not count as a steep card but a normal non steep manoeuvre

Cheers Dave:pint:

[OldGuy59]

Nice card Mike - can you do one along similar lines to match the rules I created ?

· Max 12 Rounds for Cannon
· Range: 1 Ruler
· 1 x C Damage card at close or long range (C deck adjusted to 4 zero's ie a third of the deck similar to MGs as aimed fire)
· MG & cannon cannot be fired in same phase.
· The MG was used for ranging purposes so the cannon can only be fired in the phase after a phase of MG fire.
· Cockpit fills with smoke/fumes when the cannon was fired - do not use the MG,or, start reloading in the phase immediately after firing the cannon
· Cannon takes consecutive 3 phases to reload.
· Reload requires two straight manoeuvre cards & MG cannot be used, or, jam cleared during the reload.
· After firing the cannon insert a stall card as its next move - this does not count as a steep card but a normal non steep manoeuvre

Cheers Dave:pint:
Too much stuff, Dave. It won't fit at a font size I can read.

[flash]

Too much stuff, Dave. It won't fit at a font size I can read.

I trimmed it down - how about this:

This plane is equipped with a 37mm cannon fired through the propeller hub. It has 12 shots at one ruler range, one C card per shot (deck adjusted to 4 zero's), and can only be fired after a phase of MG fire (Aim). When the cannon is fired the aircraft slows & the cockpit fills with smoke: Replace the next manoeuvre card with a stall; it cannot fire the MG, or, start reloading in that phase. The stall does not count as a steep. Reloading requires three consecutive phases including two straight manoeuvres with no steep or Immelmann turns allowed. The MG cannot be fired, or, cleared during the reload, nor when the cannon is being fired.

[OldGuy59]

The edit worked, and it is a bit more spaced than the original, Dave.

Flash Version:
210886

[tikkifriend]

Nice Mike :thumbsup:

[flash]

Thanks Mike, good job :thumbsup:

[OldGuy59]

Thanks Mike, good job :thumbsup:

Dave. Thanks for the rep.

But, it is amazing what can be achieved when a team works together...